king ubu Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 what a weirdo thread... it's all music! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 Larry Young's 'Of Love and Peace' is not a bad starting point - with its Eddie Gale trumpet bursts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Hawkins Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 Free jazz lacks the two most important ingrediants in music... Melody and Rhythm. kids say the darnedest things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 as if making the comment wasn't enough: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewHill Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 (edited) I would say try the Don Cherry Blue Notes but leave Symphony for Improvisors for last, as I think that's probably the wildest of the three. Don't get me wrong, I love 'Symphony for Improvisors' but always thought it was easy listening free jazz! Probably because I got so used to it when I heard repeatedly Don Cherry and the quintet with Gato Barbieri play this every night at the Chat Qui Pèche club in Paris. Never thought I'd see the day where 'free jazz' and 'easy listening' would appear in the same sentence I had some Ornette playing some days ago, and I'll never forget what my wife said when she rounded the corner: " when is that orchestra going to stop warming up and play!" One of the funniest things she's ever said Edited June 2, 2007 by Holy Ghost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 Either that or the giveaway bin at your local flea-market. You know, every time I hear some crack along those lines, it makes me rankle. As I started getting into jazz, for whatever reason the "free" thing was what attracted me the most. Maybe because I came from punk/garage/post-punk music to this music, but... anyway, my dad was a jazz pianist. He and his guitarist were sitting outside talking and my dad mentioned to this guy that I was "finally" getting into jazz, but that it was "free jazz." The guitarist smiled and said "is that where they play free instruments?" I guess that was my first inkling that, well, most of the jazz world doesn't appreciate it - 50+ years after the die was cast. The melodic/rhythmic ideas embraced collectively by "free" musicians is still what I cherish the most in this music. Don't ask me why - it just is, even considering that I've explored and enjoyed many other areas of jazz. The piece that Guy posted is interesting, but as with anything, there is much cross-pollination and, in some ways, the idea of setting up divisions goes against the freedom in creative music, the desire to draw from oneself as much as from other sources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewHill Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 Another for Point of Departure. It's a beautiful record. 'Dedication' is one of the most moving performances I've ever heard. POD is one of th greatest jazz albums of the 60's. Richard Davis's contributions alone is huge on that disc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 Another for Lester Young's Aladdin recordings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 I think "Free Jazz" is actually a new term used by Spanish record labels that reissue 50 year copyrighted material.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 no, it's one size fits all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Weil Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 I had some Ornette playing some days ago, and I'll never forget what my wife said when she rounded the corner: " when is that orchestra going to stop warming up and play!" One of the funniest things she's ever said Sure, and you can see her point - at least I can. I mean, the whole point of Free music is that you throw away (many of) the rules previously governing Jazz and attempt to play within a new(ish) frame (make one up). If someone is used to these rules - and nothing else - well, then, it sounds like chaos. Because people aren't acclimatized to it. Of course, then you have all the games that people play around reception, perception and content - which delays that. My sense is that 50 years is about the time it takes to sort these games out. That is to say, Jazz gets acclimatized - over time. And I think the time is about now. But, if she's your wife... Simon Weil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kreilly Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 After a lifetime of listening to jazz I still don't get it. Help with good entry points will be greatly appreciated. I love Hard bop-especially the Blue Note 60s sessions, if that helps. Thanks in advance. Peace, Jeff T Try Jackie McLean's Let Freedom Ring and Destination Out. Even the earlier New Soil and Jackie's Bag begin to stretch the boundaries of hard bop. Do you like Mingus? He really helped open my ears to the outside stuff. Try some Dolphy (Out to Lunch) and even Roland Kirk's The Inflated Tear. And as someone already mentioned, Ornette's Atlantic recordings. I really struggled with the wildly outside stuff that a friend kept sending me (Brotzmann's Machine Gun). It sounded like noise and I couldn't tolerate it for more than a few minutes. Then George Bush was declared president by the supreme court and 9/11 happened. After that, what had previously sounded like ugly noise now sounded beautiful. It was almost an overnight change for me. Of course Mingus was a great foundation to have. Now, it's virtually all I listen to. Roscoe Mitchell, Henry Threadgill, and the downtown NY avant stuff like William Parker. The listening experience with improvisational and experimental music is so cathartic for me. I listen differently than I did before. I'm not trying to figure anything out, I just listen to the sounds. Sometimes it's not my cup of tea, sometimes it's like a drug. Last winter after a series of really bad 12 hour days at work, I was exhausted but pushed myself to make the hour+ drive (alone) to the Stone to see the prepared piano playing of Denman Maroney. I was in an irritable mood. I was familiar with his work from a duo recording with Mark Dresser (Duologues) but I had never heard him solo. He played for about an hour and ten minutes, the first 45 minutes he did not even strike a key but leaned inside the piano and manipulated the strings with various devices. I'd never imagined such sounds could be coaxed from a piano. Shrieks, howls, cries, and various clicks and whines that sounded almost human and sometimes a little scary. I was completely transfixed. The effect of striking the keys while bowls were spinning on the strings was stunning. It was over all too soon and I walked out into the cold night air feeling light as a feather. It was like I spent the day at a great art exhibit but compressed into little more than an hour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:.impossible Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 As a kid, going to the Richmond Symphony at The Mosque on school field trips, or with my mom, or whomever, my favorite part of the entire experience was sitting out there listening to the orchestra tune. The sensation was almost like a lucid dream, or a fever during a summer storm. The lights were low, the dome ceiling painted like a cloudy sky and a gentle cacophony of finely crafted sounds ebbing, flowing, clashing, and harmonizing in coincidence. My brother and I had a conversation about this a couple of weeks ago. I had some Ornette playing some days ago, and I'll never forget what my wife said when she rounded the corner: " when is that orchestra going to stop warming up and play!" One of the funniest things she's ever said Sure, and you can see her point - at least I can. I mean, the whole point of Free music is that you throw away (many of) the rules previously governing Jazz and attempt to play within a new(ish) frame (make one up). If someone is used to these rules - and nothing else - well, then, it sounds like chaos. Because people aren't acclimatized to it. Of course, then you have all the games that people play around reception, perception and content - which delays that. My sense is that 50 years is about the time it takes to sort these games out. That is to say, Jazz gets acclimatized - over time. And I think the time is about now. But, if she's your wife... Simon Weil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcy62 Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 no, it's one size fits all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 Whatever happened to the thread starter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 Whatever happened to the thread starter? Perhaps he's doing a lot of listening, or else he's totally confused by all of the suggestions and has given up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A.W. Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Whatever happened to the thread starter? He's posting frequently in the jazz section on a blues forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Whatever happened to the thread starter? He's posting frequently in the jazz section on a blues forum. he posted in what are you listening to right now yesterday... doesn't look like his interests have changed significantly since the start of this thread... Dexter Gordon Swiss Nights Volume 1 Dexter Gordon: Stable mable Hank Mobley: Straight No Filter Dexter Gordon: Setting The Pace, Disc 3 "Bop" Dexter Gordon: The Complete Prestige Recordings: Disc 3 Tenor madness indeed. Peace, Jeff T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jostber Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Some suggestions: Cecil Taylor - Jazz Advance Cecil Taylor - The World Of CT Sun Ra - When Angels Speak of Love John Coltrane - Africa/Brass Andrew Hill - Black Fire Charles Mingus - The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady Destination Out Guide: http://destination-out.com/?p=42 Charlie Haden talks: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4164843 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 now give us a breat folks - neither Jackie McLean nor Andrew Hill ever did free jazz... maybe Jackie on occassion, but hell, what is free jazz anyway - no one here seems to know... must be one of the most stoopidest ever labels invented! Ask mmilovan for instances of Prez going free... what is free? - no tonality? - no fixed beat? - no form? - no structure? (Cecil has that, lots of it!) - no references to "jazz tradition"? all of just one of these? you'll hardly find music that gets rid of all of these ingredients, unless you delve into (euro) free improv/avant stuff... but just because McLean intones a bit weird (idionsyncrasy is not equal to free) or because Hill uses highly complex forms for his tunes and Ornette does not use repeating structures for his tunes, it's not all free... what is the first "free jazz" anyway? To be honest, Ornette's album of the same title does not sound free at all to me... much too neatly arranged (even if on the spot), fixed beat, some kind of tonal feeling (Ornette goes back to the blues much of the time anyway, at least on his early stuff on Atlantic). How about the Mingus group of April 1964 with Dolphy and Cliff Jordan? How about Jaki Byard? What then with Shepp? It's all so much related to what came before and to concepts used in "inside" playing, I really think the label isn't of much use. Maybe if we look elsewhere? Art Ensemble, NY Loft stuff, Wadada? I don't know an answer, but I just find it weird that names like Jackie Mac's keep popping up here when the talk is about (what the f*ck ever it is) "free jazz". Just open your ears (and minds! AND souls!) wide and relax and listen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Dorward Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 now give us a breat folks - neither Jackie McLean nor Andrew Hill ever did free jazz... maybe Jackie on occassion, but hell, what is free jazz anyway - no one here seems to know... Maybe not Jackie (though I haven't heard the sax/drum duo with Michael Carvin), but you're definitely wrong about Andrew Hill....! From Compulsion onwards on various occasions he was recording sessions that were "outside". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Yeah, ok, the date with Rivers most notably I guess - you're right there (I have just - after Hill's death - listened again to his four earliest BN albums and they're not the kind of music I'd call "free", but they're difficult and complex, yet in their own darkish way beautiful and very, very rewarding, for me). But neither "Out to Lunch" nor "Point of Departure" are free jazz records! Not that I bother much about the labelling, but I find it a bit astonishing how narrow-minded the examples/recommendations are here. Maybe something by the Art Ensemble could quite possibly be more instantly grabbing for a non-free-listener than a complex, complicated thing from Hill... and Archie Shepp's very tradition-minded albums are great and swinging affairs ("Mama Too Tight", for instance, one of his very best). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 I definitely don't see "Point of Departure" "Out to Lunch", "The All Seeing Eye", "A Love Supreme", ect.....as free jazz albums either. I can see listening to them as good preparation for more "free" music though. Baby steps, if you will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Wasn't the original poster asking for some baby steps that would take him to the "other side?" In this case, mid-60s Jackie, Hill, Dolphy and Ornette would be a great place to start... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Wasn't the original poster asking for some baby steps that would take him to the "other side?" In this case, mid-60s Jackie, Hill, Dolphy and Ornette would be a great place to start... yes, that's true... it was more the kind of talk that happened after the initial question that started annoying me a bit... but for now I'll take a bow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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