John L Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 But having said all that, Wayne on the RTE Olympia sides is Nutz Skwared. Or does that not count? That was the first thing that came to my mind as well. I was once listening to all recordings of Wayne in chronological order. When I got to the RTE Olympia concert - wholly shit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Hank Mobley's playing on The Jazz Messengers (Columbia) is none too shabby. seconded (though maybe i should get free for all ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jostber Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 with John Gilmore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 First one that came to mind was the Bohemia material with Mobley, but Golson is terrific on "Moanin'" and of course there's "Free for All" and the Blakey/Monk album with great Griffin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Can't wait for the Greatest Blakey DRUM Album thread. That's the one where I would place my vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 I'm with chewy. Mobley with the Jazz Messengers at Cafe Bohemia! The best! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WD45 Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Yep. (Free For All - Freddie) + Lee/(Reggie Workman-Jymie Merritt). I still think that FFA's overall "favored" status over Indestructable is a residual function of the latter having been OOP as an LP for may years while FFA stayed in print. Otherwise, hey, they're both topshelfstellardefinitive classics, but if I could only have one, it would be my orange and black buddy, But having said all that, Wayne on the RTE Olympia sides is Nutz Skwared. Or does that not count? These were my two thoughts as well. I love how it sounds like everything is about to go off the rails on Free for All. I still remember the first time I heard that in college. Shit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umum_cypher Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 (edited) Of what seem to be three different sets from the Jazz Messengers concerts at the Olympia, 13 May 1961, Lee is IMHO in charge on two of them. But the third is Wayne's sick joke at the expense of everyone else who ever played tenor. He is so far beyond everyone else (on stage) it's incredible. Edited June 6, 2007 by umum_cypher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 I've always thought Moanin' was somewhat overrated... but that's due to a strong preference for Shorter over Golson both as a composer and as a player. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 How about Bobby Watson on those "Live at Bubba's" albums and others? I think he's pretty incredible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 I've always thought Moanin' was somewhat overrated... but that's due to a strong preference for Shorter over Golson both as a composer and as a player. Guy I feel just the opposite. Golson=underrated (especially as a player); Shorter=overrated. Shorter's composing leaves me cold much of the time, and although I do respect him, his playing has never reached me in a strong way, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garthsj Posted June 7, 2007 Report Share Posted June 7, 2007 I've always thought Moanin' was somewhat overrated... but that's due to a strong preference for Shorter over Golson both as a composer and as a player. Guy I feel just the opposite. Golson=underrated (especially as a player); Shorter=overrated. Shorter's composing leaves me cold much of the time, and although I do respect him, his playing has never reached me in a strong way, either. I have to go with Jim R. on this ... How anyone can claim that Shorter is a better composer than Golson I just cannot understand. Sure Wayne has some fine, introspective compositions, but Golson is in a class by himself. Also (and I am on record as having said this before on this site) Shorter's playing just leaves me wondering where "the meat is" ... Griffin, McLean, Watson, Ira Sullivan, and certainly Mobley all excite me far more than Shorter. I always feel a little guilty that I just cannot "get with" Shorter considering al the fuss that is made of him on this list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted June 7, 2007 Report Share Posted June 7, 2007 (edited) I have to go with Jim R. on this ... How anyone can claim that Shorter is a better composer than Golson I just cannot understand. Sure Wayne has some fine, introspective compositions, but Golson is in a class by himself. I'm only familiar with his compositions on Moanin', as well as the tunes "Whisper Not", "Stablemates" and "I Remember Clifford". So if he's done better elsewhere, I may eventually re-evaluate... Guy Edited June 7, 2007 by Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted June 7, 2007 Report Share Posted June 7, 2007 (edited) In my book, Golson and Shorter are both monster composers. I see no reason to set them off against each other. On the tenor, I find Shorter to be a bit more exciting. But I can sure enjoy listening to Golson as well. Edited June 7, 2007 by John L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flat5 Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 I also like Mosaic, esp. Children of the Night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 I have to go with Jim R. on this ... How anyone can claim that Shorter is a better composer than Golson I just cannot understand. Sure Wayne has some fine, introspective compositions, but Golson is in a class by himself. I'm only familiar with his compositions on Moanin', as well as the tunes "Whisper Not", "Stablemates" and "I Remember Clifford". So if he's done better elsewhere, I may eventually re-evaluate... Guy "done better elsewhere"???? I don't think there's anything that can be said except WTF?? Just a guess but I suspect that 99% of all jazz artists who have tried their hand at composing tunes wish they could have written tunes like the ones you mention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 I have to go with Jim R. on this ... How anyone can claim that Shorter is a better composer than Golson I just cannot understand. Sure Wayne has some fine, introspective compositions, but Golson is in a class by himself. I'm only familiar with his compositions on Moanin', as well as the tunes "Whisper Not", "Stablemates" and "I Remember Clifford". So if he's done better elsewhere, I may eventually re-evaluate... Guy "done better elsewhere"???? I don't think there's anything that can be said except WTF?? Just a guess but I suspect that 99% of all jazz artists who have tried their hand at composing tunes wish they could have written tunes like the ones you mention. The comparison was strictly between Shorter and Golson, who are both presumably in that 1%. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 I have to go with Jim R. on this ... How anyone can claim that Shorter is a better composer than Golson I just cannot understand. Sure Wayne has some fine, introspective compositions, but Golson is in a class by himself. I'm only familiar with his compositions on Moanin', as well as the tunes "Whisper Not", "Stablemates" and "I Remember Clifford". So if he's done better elsewhere, I may eventually re-evaluate... Guy "done better elsewhere"???? I don't think there's anything that can be said except WTF?? Just a guess but I suspect that 99% of all jazz artists who have tried their hand at composing tunes wish they could have written tunes like the ones you mention. The comparison was strictly between Shorter and Golson, who are both presumably in that 1%. Guy Well, Shorter is not in my top 1%, just as Golson must not be in yours. To each his own, but I've never ever encountered anyone who would list the tunes from Moanin' plus "Stablemates" "Whisper Not" and "I Remember Clifford" as compositions that are somehow lacking or subpar and be asking for "better" examples of his composing skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 To my ears, Golson is a great classic jazz composer, where Shorter was a great progressive jazz composer. Hard to say which is better...guess it depends on what type of jazz you prefer. I reach for Shorter's stuff more often, but I love Golson as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest donald petersen Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 To my ears, Golson is a great classic jazz composer, where Shorter was a great progressive jazz composer. Hard to say which is better...guess it depends on what type of jazz you prefer. I reach for Shorter's stuff more often, but I love Golson as well. i don't think your opinion is just "to your ears". probably any jazz listener feels the same way regarding your golson/shorter comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 To my ears, Golson is a great classic jazz composer, where Shorter was a great progressive jazz composer. Hard to say which is better...guess it depends on what type of jazz you prefer. I reach for Shorter's stuff more often, but I love Golson as well. i don't think your opinion is just "to your ears". probably any jazz listener feels the same way regarding your golson/shorter comparison. Yep. And as what was "progressive" in Shorter's Messengers days became more and more "mainstream", it's only natural that some might hear Golson's work as less than the masterful use of elements-of-its-time that it truly is. (Although I do think Golson became less inventive and more formulaic as both player and composer, his craftsmanship was never less than impeccable. And his playing since his "comeback" has often been pretty damn interesting, I think.) Hell, there's more than a few people who think that both Golson's and Shorter's Messengers work is "old fashioned", and at least for a while, Wayne was one of 'em. Remember his comments about writing "nightclub music"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceH Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 I've always thought Moanin' was somewhat overrated... but that's due to a strong preference for Shorter over Golson both as a composer and as a player. Guy I like 'em both (a lot) but I think I'm a bigger fan of Golson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFrank Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Today is the 50th anniversary of this recording. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 So, the Messengers saw The Beatles on Sullivan and then the next day figured oh shit, let;'s do this while we still have a chance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFrank Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Looks like it, Jim. They got inspired and decided to blow the roof off of Rudy's living room! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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