Kenny Burrell

[Dan Gould]

One thing I'll say for Kenny Burrell-- besides making the Stanley dates-- is that his music could, in states that allow capitol punishment, be used in place of lethal injection, although this woman thinks soporific shit like this qualifies as Cruel & Unusual Punishment--

Just give me the junk, Bill, please!

Why the fuck didn't Art Pepper ever sound like this, not even on "Winter Moon"?

On Goulden Pond, I sincerely pity your aesthetic if you find this a world lacking in many many MANY other more diverse, lively and-- dare I say it without being thought too lewd?-- dirty guitar forms to celebrate.

One antidote--

Two antidote--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLdBb7PrZ88

Antidote Three, from 1978 and with a beard also--

It's called fucking FEELING and it's a lot better expressed on stage (or studio) than on message boards where sham icons finally get theirs and yes, KB's Ellington tribute is vomitous, even with Jimmy around.

Watch out when I plug in the Hitachi Magic Wand, fellas: VRRRRROOOOOM!!!

Its time to give up the charade, because you are fooling no one, Brian-the-Brooklyn-Poet/Clementine/EDC.

You're as female as

and as transparent as

[Shawn]

An interesting discussion though a bit "over the top" at times. I don't understand this need some people have to display such hostility and negative comments toward a player who is not one of their favorites. One can legitimately point out the things about a musicians playing they do not like, but the nasty ad hominum comments don't seem necessary.

[BruceH]

Chauncey = (((yawn)))

[felser]

See, that's what differences in taste are all about.

I consider myself a bit of a jazz guitar nut, but talking about 50s/60s jazz guitarists, I never felt much urge to revisit the (pre-60s) Kenny Burrell leader LP's that I have. I can't really put my finger on it but reading what Chauncey had to say here somehow struck me just a wee bit as if the gist of what (s)he said might be the reason why his records somehow (literally) did not strike a chord with me anywhere near the way Tal Farlow (THE MAN!!), Barney Kessel, Jimmy Raney, Billy Bauer, early Wes Montgomery (and even Hank Garland, Jimmy Wyble, Joe Puma and obscurity Dempsey Wright - thank you, Fresh Sound) do. And Chuck Wayne too!

So this thread has made me curious enough to pull out KB's records again and of course I will listen to them under the impact of this debate. But is that a bad thing? I reserve the right of having an opinion of my own anyway - one way or another!

The albums that sparked this thread, 'Soul Call' and 'The Tender Gender' were recorded in '64 and '66 respectively, and have a different feel to them than his 50's work. That's what caught me by surprise when I heard them. I find Burrell's 50's and ealry 60's work to be solid and dependable (many of the sessions were very "by the book", though admittedly it's a great book), but not overly exciting. I find much of his work since the late 70's to be pretty boring, though some of it holds up very well. But for me, he hit a peak in the mid 60's and produced his most rewarding sessions as a leader, both conceptually and playing-wise. Much of it stretched into areas his earlier and later playing never dared to (at least to my ears).

[clifford_thornton]

As I've said elsewhere, I think y'all are getting yr undies in a bunch a little too much over Chauncey/Clem/BB's posts.

But... I'll still keep my neither here nor there stance on KB and the fact that I enjoyed the one track posted from Soul Call.

[Stereojack]

As I've said elsewhere, I think y'all are getting yr undies in a bunch a little too much over Chauncey/Clem/BB's posts.

But... I'll still keep my neither here nor there stance on KB and the fact that I enjoyed the one track posted from Soul Call.

That's a good plan. It's the detractors/trolls who are missing out.

FWIW, Kenny Burrell has long been one of my favorite musicians, for a variety of reasons.

[Big Beat Steve]

See, that's what differences in taste are all about.

I consider myself a bit of a jazz guitar nut, but talking about 50s/60s jazz guitarists, I never felt much urge to revisit the (pre-60s) Kenny Burrell leader LP's that I have. I can't really put my finger on it but reading what Chauncey had to say here somehow struck me just a wee bit as if the gist of what (s)he said might be the reason why his records somehow (literally) did not strike a chord with me anywhere near the way Tal Farlow (THE MAN!!), Barney Kessel, Jimmy Raney, Billy Bauer, early Wes Montgomery (and even Hank Garland, Jimmy Wyble, Joe Puma and obscurity Dempsey Wright - thank you, Fresh Sound) do. And Chuck Wayne too!

So this thread has made me curious enough to pull out KB's records again and of course I will listen to them under the impact of this debate. But is that a bad thing? I reserve the right of having an opinion of my own anyway - one way or another!

The albums that sparked this thread, 'Soul Call' and 'The Tender Gender' were recorded in '64 and '66 respectively, and have a different feel to them than his 50's work. That's what caught me by surprise when I heard them. I find Burrell's 50's and ealry 60's work to be solid and dependable (many of the sessions were very "by the book", though admittedly it's a great book), but not overly exciting. I find much of his work since the late 70's to be pretty boring, though some of it holds up very well. But for me, he hit a peak in the mid 60's and produced his most rewarding sessions as a leader, both conceptually and playing-wise. Much of it stretched into areas his earlier and later playing never dared to (at least to my ears).

This thread has become highly inspiring (in a number of ways ... ) by now.

I can only go by what I have of KB's leader albums but this thread made me pull them out again last evening.

So, Felser, both "Kenny Burrell No. 2" on Blue Note and "Kenny Burrell" on Prestige are different from what he did in the 60s? Anyway ... I find them are enjoyable enough, including KB's input; but now I realize why I never had much urge to pull them out when I was in a "jazz guitarist groove". Somehow good ol' KB gets drowned out by the horn men even on his leader dates (mentioned before here; has he always had a habit of pulling back that far? I mean, he is no Freddie Green ). And I do feel quite a few of his licks sound as if I heard them elsewhere before (is this what somebody else here referred to as "not the most imaginative", I wonder?), and his solo feature on the BN album somehow struck me as a Johnny Smith soundalike on first listening.

Anyway, solid, enjoyable albums but the guitar sparks do not fly like they do on other guitar men albums. But maybe they weren't meant to in the first place and I just haven't adjusted to that yet? (Listening to Farlow, Kessel, Raney et al. tunes your ears differently)

However, Columbia could have done a LOT worse than release the 1961/62 stuff back in the 60s that was shelved until it came out on the "Bluesin Around" album much later. Though quite a few of the licks sound "standard fare" again, I find this one yet more enjoyable, even in the way KB interacts with the other featured players there. Signs of times to come??

[Shawn]

As mentioned before most of KB's leader dates in the 50s ended up being "blowin' session" affairs, not really guitar-focused albums. However one album not mentioned where the sparks definitely do fly is On View At The Five Spot Cafe with Tina Brooks onboard. The live session cooks, with Hallelujah especially standing out.

Then of course later the same year is another live date which is a stone classic, previously mentioned by Jim earlier in the thread:

While I enjoy the earlier blowing session dates, I think it's these albums where Kenny really hits his stride.

[BruceH]

As mentioned before most of KB's leader dates in the 50s ended up being "blowin' session" affairs, not really guitar-focused albums. However one album not mentioned where the sparks definitely do fly is On View At The Five Spot Cafe with Tina Brooks onboard. The live session cooks, with Hallelujah especially standing out.

Then of course later the same year is another live date which is a stone classic, previously mentioned by Jim earlier in the thread:

While I enjoy the earlier blowing session dates, I think it's these albums where Kenny really hits his stride.

Good call, Shawn. On View At the Five Spot Cafe has long been a favorite of mine. The other, I'm sorry to say, I don't have. Don't recall even seeing it anywhere.

[AndrewHill]

The Argo is now widely available as part of Verve's Originals series, as the cover indicates in the pic. Its one of my favorite Burrell's with Richard Davis and Roy Haynes.

[Fer Urbina]

... And I do feel quite a few of his licks sound as if I heard them elsewhere before (is this what somebody else here referred to as "not the most imaginative", I wonder?)

Yes, that's kind of what I meant.

In any case jazz guitar is a tricky subject. I think guitarists are judged by a different set of standards (re: melodic invention) than other musicians (I have the impression that technique and especially gadgetry get more attention than it is the case for other instruments). I think one of the problems is that guitarists tend to be very "guitaristic", that they play things that fall naturally under their fingers... case in point is Sal Salvador, who in spite of his immaculate technique at fast tempos, IMHO he repeated himself a lot, especially on the Capitol and Bethlehems with Eddie Costa, where he plays a very "confortable" minor third lick ad nauseam.

F

[clifford_thornton]

Sorry Clem, we really did think it was you. I did like the aliases idea for a minute there.

[7/4]

This ChaunceyMorehouse broad has some style & props to anyone who can get the usual knuckleheads frothing (watch: more posts about posters: my how fascinating) but alas, neither our styles nor our opinions are quite the same

Not fascinating at all. Pretty boring.

[JSngry]

Sorry Clem, we really did think it was you.

And I still do!

And I'm not particularly bothered by it.

But love and such aside, he's still wrong about Burrell. Trust me - I've known more than a few "hacks" and guys who just play it for the paycheck, and Kenny Burrell is nowhere near that type player, not even on a "glorified" level, or wasn't in the days I prefer to listen to him. Such perceptions to me speak of somebody who "knows" music very well, loves it deeply, and is fatally in love with the notion of walking the tightrope in it's infinitely variegated manifestations.

All of which I understand, and appreciate myself.

But what it does not speak to is somebody who has had to play music at any level other than casual. As with James Spaulding & Clark Terry, there is an "in between" layer where competence is impeccably high, and "personal substance", although not always as high as competence, does exist on a very real, honest, and honorable level. And although those supporters of such artists who overlook this "gap" are not being totally intellectually honest about the matter, those who write such players off as "hacks" and such really do not get it. Their defense, that even if what I mention as being there is ultimately worthless even if it is there, ultimately speaks to a consumer mentality, one which needs visceral thrills (even the visceral thrill of intellectual stimulation) to affirm one's own existence.

To which I can only say - I know I'm alive, and I know what my reality is. I don't need anybody or anything to confirm it for me. And although the rush of going out on a limb is one which I will hopefully perpetually enjoy, there is room in my world for benevolence of music played with substance, grace, and polish that does not trigger the metaphorical bug-eyed-ness. There is room for craft as art and art as craft. I do not feel either threatened or insulted by such music or musicians, and in fact feel that they are the "working men" of creative musics, the people who give substantive, real, and valuable body and depth to what would otherwise a collective set of genius/near-genius/wacko creative ejaculations.

What I do not have room for is imitation as craft or art, or craft as art where it is obvious that the practitioner has no concept whatsoever of where the art lies. To say that about Kenny Burrell, or James Spaulding, or Clark Terry, strikes me as willful ignorance, as limited/selective hearing/seeing of a broader reality. It's not even a 3-D reality that such a view represents, it's more like a 2.93-D reality (and we all know that 3-D itself is actually/ultimately a pretty "shallow" representation of "reality").

To say it about Oscar Peterson, well....that just goes to show you that I am qualified to comment on the shortcomings of such a position by having it at least somewhat myself. In my defense, though, I will only add that Oscar Peterson seems to have had a sense of grandeur about himself the Burrell, Spaulding, & Terry never have come close to having. So that skews the equation considerably towards not really knowing where the art is. That's my story, and...

Bottom line - in my book, rabid under-appreciation & rabid over-appreciation are both qualities for which one should not settle (or get suckered into).

Call me Goldilocks.

Edited July 3, 2008 by JSngry

[JSngry]

And oh by the way, I mean the above with absolutely zero rancor towards Brian/Clem/Chauncey/Zelig/Forrest Gump/Whoever. Much love for he/she/them/its. Genuinely & sincerely. They make good., provocative points often largely grounded in at least some/many levels of reality.

It is more the conclusions they reach - either Hack or Hero, with precious little in between, that I find...silly and/or uninformed and/or unfortunate and/or immature. But I'm ok with that, since I am a self-absorbed prick who is pretty much convinced that what I know (which is far from everything, trust me), I know, so I know where they're coming from. :g :g

Edited July 3, 2008 by JSngry

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

they are the "working men" of creative musics, the people who give substantive, real, and valuable body and depth to what would otherwise a collective set of genius/near-genius/wacko creative ejaculations.

This is roughly what you said about Ronnie Matthews.

In addition, of course, there's always this

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=29806

MG

[JSngry]

they are the "working men" of creative musics, the people who give substantive, real, and valuable body and depth to what would otherwise a collective set of genius/near-genius/wacko creative ejaculations.

This is roughly what you said about Ronnie Matthews.

Well, yeah. And the corollary to that is that if all these people really were "hacks" or whatever, then music would pretty much be either wild, bug-eyed genius or snooze-ola mechanical interchangeabilities.

Such (clearly, imo) is not the case, although, for whatever reasons, some people try to convince you that it is. Whether that's their genuine personal POV (and I myself gotta consider that an unfortunate tunnel vision), or whether they're being agitators against complacency, I don't know, but ultimately, for me, exaggeration in the service of truth ultimately leads to no truth at all. It's as if one drives too fast to get somewhere (and there's that "anxiety" again, justified or not...), only to miss it by being unable to stop in time to get out of the car. You just blow past it and say "there it is!" on your way to not being there...

[Soul Stream]

But he's also a hack of limited imagination and, to his credit, limited ambition, so the two are usually well-matched. Because he came up in the combo era he got more attention and chances than his meager talent ever deservered

Dude, you're on crack. Kenny Burrell should punch you.

[clifford_thornton]

As ever, Jim, you hit the nail on the head and put eloquently why I can enjoy Spaulding and Mathews, and appreciate KB.

Side note that maybe gives too much away: Spaulding played me "Happy Birthday" on flute over the phone one year when I was spending my birthday alone in the frozen north.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

As ever, Jim, you hit the nail on the head and put eloquently why I can enjoy Spaulding and Mathews, and appreciate KB.

Side note that maybe gives too much away: Spaulding played me "Happy Birthday" on flute over the phone one year when I was spending my birthday alone in the frozen north.

Wow! How nice!

MG

[randyhersom]

thanks for mentioning that, Adolf -

"As a USENET discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups.

Gee, let's start a new Kenny Burrell thread!

[Norm]

Just read through this old thread. Strong opinions on both sides but I learned a lot (though it seems one of Burrell's detractors and his/her various aliases may no longer be around???)

No matter, what I really wanted to bring up is one album that I did not see mentioned, or at least discussed, through the 7 pages and that is Kenny Burrell and John Coltrane (Presige 1958, reissued 2005 RvG remaster). Its not only one of my favorite Burrell's, but up there over all. To me, its all about the feel and the spaces he left there. Nothing is remotely forced and to me there isn't one iota of note that is there that shouldn't be. Those spaces in Burrell's playing on this one is what its all about, bringing out his grooves into deep relief.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Norm

[marcello]

I've always been a big fan no matter how uneven some sessions are.

That's a pretty fair analysis above.

But then, Kenny doesn't give a shit as he exits the stage...

Buffalo, 1977 or so.

Edited September 22, 2009 by marcello

[Jim R]

...one album that I did not see mentioned, or at least discussed, through the 7 pages and that is Kenny Burrell and John Coltrane (Presige 1958, reissued 2005 RvG remaster). Its not only one of my favorite Burrell's, but up there over all. To me, its all about the feel and the spaces he left there. Nothing is remotely forced and to me there isn't one iota of note that is there that shouldn't be. Those spaces in Burrell's playing on this one is what its all about, bringing out his grooves into deep relief.

Actually the original release was on New Jazz, but yes, beautiful album. In a thread full of vague generalities both positive and negative, here's something specific to check out. For all the players out there, in particular (guitar and otherwise)... listen to the way Kenny phrases the melody on "I Never Knew". To me, this is one great example of what made KB such a great musician, and not something to be casually glossed over (it's not always about how great the solos are). Ideally, try to find other examples of this tune, especially if you're not familiar with the way the melody was actually written.

[Jim R]

Well for a variety of reasons, I haven't been reading the posts here as much as I used to (daily). So seeing a thread about KB made me curious, because he's one of my favorites. And after reading, a few things are clear:

• 
  

• Some people need the attention of having an opposite opinion of the accepted wisdom on a subject. I've been gulty of that. But you try to outgow that. The far extreme being denying war atocities...
  
• Sangrey as always hits the nail on the head while being fair to all concerned
  
• In my corner of the world, back in the day, the cats all copped from Kenny, and yes they heard McLaughlin and Sharrock, etc. and they made a choice, and if you want to play who's hipper, you better come armed cause those guys would blow you off the stand if you were jive
  
• They used to call Kenny the Velvet Whip because it's about being smooth and powerful, laid back and threatening, tasty and serious, not many others could do it.
  
• I play the guitar, and with due respect to Chet, Howard Roberts, Grady Martin, etc....it's about his tone, baby
  
• I don't need anyone to validate my opinion of who/what is good, but I also don't need to convince you...the desperation in some posts is funny
  
• I played some Kenny this morning before I even saw this thread and it makes me want to go play Soul Call. Also check out the CD on Esoteric of his Columbia sessions
  

This person (who unfortunately for us has only posted 112 times on this board) encapsulates things nicely, and with obvious hipness. [bold text added by me].

The Esoteric CD is MOTEN SWING (formerly "Bluesin' Around" on Columbia, except with several nice alt takes added), by the way. You will get yourself some serious doses of that velvet whip on these sessions. For a sample, I would recommend the master take of "People Will Say We're In Love", with the volume cranked up. Tone... touch... taste... I think this track may have been THE pinnacle.

Oh, and since I was on hiatus when this thread was originally posted, I just want to add that I've always thought that "Soul Call" was top notch KB. I always used to mention that when everybody was having the trite discussions about "Midnight Blue", "Guitar Forms", and all the other AMG-sanctioned, Good Housekeeping Seal Of Approval KB albums (I never cared for "Guitar Forms", btw).