Favorite Andrew Hill 'BN' sidemen (with Hill)

[Rooster_Ties]

OK, I think this is a complete list of all the sidemen on Andrew Hill's released output from BN during the years of 1963-70. (I haven't included the 'voices', or the string quartet, or the two percussionists from "Compulsion". But I did include Bobby Hutcherson's "Dialogue" in my calculations - since it practically is a Hill album, in several ways.)

1.) Who do you think Hill brought out the best in??? Especially if Hill brought out a particularly interesting side of someone, that we otherwise didn't get to hear that much.

2.) Who do you wish Hill had recorded with more often???

3.) And who's name isn't on this list, that you would have liked to have recorded with Hill, back in the day???

Sax

Eric Dolphy

Booker Ervin

Joe Farrell (2 sessions)

Carlos Garnett

John Gilmore (2 sessions)

Joe Henderson (3 sessions)

Bennie Maupin (3 sessions)

Frank Mitchell

Pat Patrick

Sam Rivers (2 sessions)

Trumpet

Kenny Dorham

Freddie Hubbard (3 sessions)

Lee Morgan (2 sessions)

Dizzy Reece

Woody Shaw (3 sessions)

Charles Toliver (2 sessions)

Bass

Walter Booker

Ron Carter (5 sessions)

Richard Davis (8 sessions!!!)

Eddie Khan

Cecil McBee

Victor Sproles

Reggie Workman

Drums

Joe Chambers (4 sessions)

Roy Haynes (2 sessions)

Billy Higgins

Elvin Jones

J.C. Moses

Idris Muhammad

Ben Riley (2 sessions)

Mickey Roker

Freddie Waits (2 sessions)

Lenny White

Tony Williams

other

Bobby Hutcherson (3 sessions)

Howard Johnson (tuba)

Bob Northern (French Horn)

Jimmy Ponder (guitar)

Julian Priester (trombone)

Edited October 23, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[sidewinder]

I suspect that there will be some widely differing opinions on this one but here's my 'two-peneth'..

(1) Richard Davis, John Gilmore, Bobby Hutcherson, Elvin Jones

(2) Joe Farrell, John Gilmore, Woody Shaw

(3) Wayne Shorter, Don Cherry

:rsmile:

[Guy Berger]

1.)  Who do you think Hill brought out the best in???  Especially if Hill brought out a particularly interesting side of someone, that we otherwise didn't get to hear that much.

I've only heard 5 of Hill's 60s albums so I'm not exactly a comprehensive source, but I'd have to say Kenny Dorham.

2.)  Who do you wish Hill had recorded with more often???

Dolphy, for sure. Tony Williams. It would have also been cool to have a session with Andrew, Eric, Tony and Bobby Hutcherson.

3.)  And who's name isn't on this list, that you would have liked to have recorded with Hill, back in the day???

The obvious one is Wayne Shorter, because he is also an eccentric and exciting musical thinker. It would have been increasingly interesting as the 60s drew to a close.

Trane would have been interesting too.

Guy

[Shrdlu]

I can't quite fit my comment in with any of your three questions, but I would like to say how important Richard Davis was to those sessions. This is not an original thought, I know, but it's worth saying again.

I would not say that Hill brought out the best in Richard Davis, though, as he is always terrific. Although he had been around for awhile, in 1964 he was suddenly on just about everybody's recording date. It was almost as if he had arrived, fully matured, out of nowhere.

[DrJ]

The Hill/Richard Davis combination was a real winner, one of the great piano/bass combinations of all time

Hill/Joe Henderson/Kenny Dorham - awesome (OUR THING, POINT OF DEPARTURE), would love to have heard a WHOLE bunch more from this axis

[brownie]

My very personal tastes regarding trumpets would go to Kenny Dorham and Lee Morgan but I always found that Woody Shaw played some of his best dates with Andrew Hill.

Eric Dolphy is a musician I wish had recorded more often with Hill. The two were such a beautiful combination.

Same goes for Bobby Hutcherson who was never more adventurous than when he played with Hill.

One musician I wish had recorded more often with Hill is Walt Dickerson. They were together on the Prestige Dickerson date 'To My Queen', a memorable album. Wish somebody would try to have them together again at a record session or at a concert to produce more beautiful music.

[king ubu]

How 'bout an album (or two) with the following band:

Woody Shaw

Eric Dolphy

Bobby Hutcherson

Richard Davis

Freddie Waits

I'd certainly love it!

then add Sam Rivers and Eddie Khan for some more...

ubu

[king ubu]

... and some Julian Priester!

ubu

[Rooster_Ties]

Well, to answer my own questions...

Who did Hill bring out the best in?

Joe Henderson is great in almost any context, but his playing on "Black Fire" in particular, is nothing short of magic. And I'm increasingly becoming impressed with Joe Farrell's work on "Passing Ships" (and I'll have to dig out "Dance with Death" soon and reevaluate his playing there).

Without a doubt, Hill is one of my very favorite context in which to hear Lee Morgan or Woody Shaw - both of whom provided some of the most interesting playing of their entire careers (when they played with Hill). The two sessions with Charles Tolliver are also highly interesting to me, as they probably represent the most 'progressive' context that Tolliver ever recorded in.

What can I say about bass players with Hill, other than Richard Davis - he's da man!!!

Lot's of great drummers, who turned out highly interesting work with Hill. Haynes is one of the very best (especially on "Black Fire"), but I really like Elvin's work on "Judgment" too. But, in some ways, I think some of the later drummers (from the 67-70 sessions) are really damn interesting to hear within Hill's later concept.

And Bobby Hutcherson brought something very special to Hill's music. I really wish they would record together again, even now. Even just a duo-album, or in any other small-group context.

Who do I wish had recorded with Hill more often???

Joe Henderson, especially. And absolutely Lee Morgan and Woody Shaw. Probably also Roy Haynes and Elvin Jones -- and Bobby Hutcherson. In fact, here could have been an amazing date: A Hill album with Joe, plus Lee or Woody, plus Richard Davis, plus Roy or Elvin, along with Hutch. Wow - what a line-up that could have been!!!

And who do I wish had recorded with Hill back then, but didn't?

The most obvious answers (already given) are Wayne Shorter and Don Cherry, and I concur totally.

But I'll throw a curve ball in here and also say Grant Green. The only guitarist to ever record with Hill was Jimmy Ponder (on the earlier, unreleased-at-the-time "Grass Roots" session). Ponder adds a fascinating 'tartness' (the word I nearly always use to describe his contribution to that date). I'm not sure I would have necessarily wanted to hear the Grant Green of 1968 with Hill (on that date). But it would have been very interesting to hear the Grant Green of 1963-65 - with Hill sometime after 1967. (Does that make any sense?? )

Another thing (that surely wouldn't have worked) was to consider how Miles would have sounded within Andrew Hill's world. I know it's been said time and again how Miles hated playing with Monk. But that was back in the 50's, and by the mid-to-late 60's -- Miles was in an entirely different place. Imagine the "Miles Smiles" Miles of 1966 on "Black Fire" (1963). Or maybe the "Sorcerer/Nefertiti" Miles of 1967 on either of the "Lift Every Voice" sessions (1969 & 1970), but without the voices.

I mean, it's clear that you would have to REALLY cherry-pick very particular moments in both Miles' career, and Hill's too (and not the same years) -- in order to pair them up in any way that would even be half-way conceivable. (Then again, the idea of the Miles of the 60's playing in any non-Miles context, is nearly impossible to imagine.)

Anybody have any other thoughts on my suggestions of either Grant Green, or Miles??

Any other 'wild and crazy' ideas for people to have play on a Hill date???

[JSngry]

Johnny Griffin or Tyrone Washington on GRASS ROOTS.

[Rooster_Ties]

Boy, Tyrone would have really given some balls to "Grass Roots", that's for sure. Hell of an idea, Jim.

Particularly on the earlier "Grass Roots" date, since Woody Shaw's on it - and he and Tyrone always made such a great front line.

[JSngry]

I wonder how Jimmy Lyons would have sounded on COMPULSION. Not that that date needed any changing around. No sir!

For that matter, I wonder how Jimmy Lyons would have workied in place of JAmes Spaulding on some of the more outre BN dates.

I just wish that Jimmy Lyons could have been heard more in his all too brief lifetime. A HELLUVA player, and I think that him and Hill could have made some good music together in the middle '60s, especially the "frustration" dates like COMPULSION & the quartet date with Sam Rivers (remember, Lyons & Rivers tore the joint up w/Cecil!) unless there would have been a clash of chemistry or something like that.

[Rooster_Ties]

Hey Sangry (or anybody else). Wanna riff on my idea of what Miles would have done in Hill's world??? (Assuming my bazaar suggestions of pairing the Miles of "Miles Smiles" on Hill's "Black Fire", or some other Miles (can't decide which one would be best) in one of Hill's late 60's contexts?? (Not "Grass Roots", but one of the more slippery dates - which is why I picked "Lift Every Voice" – but without the voices.)

Yes, yes – I know – on a personality level, it could have never worked. (And, yeah, probably not on a musical level either.) And yes – the idea of Miles playing anybody else's music in the 60's is ludicrous, at best. Still, what if??

PS: Good suggestion on Jimmy Lyons, from what little I've heard of him. I've never caught the Cecil bug (so I don't really know him as much from that, other than Cecil's two BN dates from the mid 60's). But at one time I did have Lyons' Give It Up from 1985 at one time (haven't seen it in years, did I trade it? )

Edited October 24, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[JSngry]

Miles w/Hill in the 60s? Don't know about that. Exactly why I can't say, other than I think that there would be a conflict of basic rhythmic sensibilities. But I could be wrong.

[JSngry]

Youknow, not to be too esoteric or anything, but the question being asked here could also be asked as "Who do you think brought out the best in Andrew Hill?", and I think the answers would be identical.

The reason I say this is that I don't think that Hill by nature is the kind of leader who is inclined to push his vision of his music on his players to the point that if they ain't gettin' it that he's going to MAKE them get it. All the unreleased sessions from the late 60s point to this, as does a story I heard about how the roots of DUSK. Seems that Ron Horton (it was either Horton or Frank Kimbrough, but I think it was Horton)went to hear Andrew, one of his idols, perform somewhere, and Andrew had a group that was just not cutting the music particularly well. Ron went up to Andrew afterwards and expressed his frustration at hearing such great material played so inadequately. Anrew's response was along the lines of, "Yeah, I know, but what can I do about it?" Horton then volunteered to get Andrew some players and to help him organize his music in terms of readable, accurately notated charts (supposedly, Andrew doesn't write all the rhythmic quirks in his melodies in a specific manner, he just writes the basic rhythms and leaves it to the players to figure out where the cracks are). Well, Andrew took Horton up on his offer, one thing led to another, and DUSK was the eventual result. This is all secondhand information, but from a source I trust fairly well.

Even allowing for some "slant" as to Horton's "importance", the essence of the story rings true to me. Hill has never struck me as a real assertive type leader. It has always seemed to me that if he gets players he can really count on to dig deeply into his music, then he does, but if not, he'll just kinda go with the flow and not really push anybody past what he percieves to be their limitations and/or natural tendencies. This is not an uncommon trait amongst musicians, so I certainly don't consider it a "flaw" or anything like that. It's just the cat's nature, nothing more.

But it does accent just how important the "group vibe" is to Hill's music. It's so full of subtlties and implications that only the best players, no, scratch that, the best MUSICIANS (a big difference, imo), the ones who aren't afraid to dig in and tackle it fearlessly, can fully bring it to life. When this happens, I think Andrew responds in turn, and you get magic. When it doesn't, I think he kinda lays back and goes with the flow. You still get good, even great music, just not the "ultimate Andrew Hill experience", if you know what I mean. So it's a two-way street as to who brings out the best in whom, I think.

And along those lines, I'd LOVE to hear a duet album, on standards, maybe(!) between Andrew & Von Freeman. Maybe make a trio w/Malachi Favors. Something to stir up old memories of Chicago through today's older and wiser eyes. That could be something really special, and it's not too late for it to happen, at least in theory. But the "business" end of it might prove problematic.

Still, a kid can dream, can't he?

Edited October 24, 2003 by JSngry

[Rooster_Ties]

Good post, Jim. I totally hear what you're talking about with Hill not being that aggressive and/or assertive a leader. He seemed like that in person, as well (if that means anything).

And what you said about Hill not always having the best musicians with him, also jives with some audio evidence I've heard. There's a tape making the rounds from the late 80's or early 90's, with Hill as a quartet (piano trio plus one reed player). I won't mention any names (cuz who knows who's really guilty), but man - the band just cannot make it happen. (Or at least that's what my ears told me, from the one listen I've had to the tape.)

Now whether that's from lack of good charts (which is entirely possible, and believable), or just a bad night, or players that just didn't get Hill's thing -- or what -- I really don't know. (Possibly a combination of all three.)

One interesting thing about the tape, though, is that Hill revisits mostly the stronger tunes from his catalog, including -- of all tunes -- "Grass Roots"!! (Meaning he plays the title track from "Grass Roots".) It's a somewhat unremarkable performance (like the whole tape is, to some extent), but I never thought I'd live to hear Andrew Hill revisiting any material from the album "Grass Roots", in a late 80's or early 90's context. Pretty interesting, actually - though one is definitely left with the impression that Hill was playing the most 'tuneful' tunes in his book, simply because that's all the band could (attempt) to handle.

I've only heard the tape once, and it also suffers from some sound quality issues (so the whole deck is stacked against it), but perhaps it will grow on me a touch with repeated listens.

That's the thing about Hill's music (unlike Miles, or Joe Henderson, or Woody Shaw, or Charles Tolliver, or most jazz players). Unlike most guys, nearly every Hill tune you only get to hear in one version. With Joe and Miles and the rest - you often get to hear some of their material in both their original 'studio' versions, AND you frequently get to hear their strongest tunes again, later in their careers - on live releases, and such. Or (in the case of Miles), you also get to hear others revisit his material, even (lately) some of his late 60's and early 70's output.

But with Hill, you've almost always only got one version of each tune, and that's it. Hill's tunes aren't covered all that often (try 'almost never'), and Hill has never gone back to older material (or at least his live performances of older material never see the light of day)

I think hearing his material, in multiple contexts (somehow) - would only help people become more familiar with some of his work, and maybe his concepts.

Edited October 29, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Joe]

Still waiting to hear more Andrew Hill w/ Philly Joe Jones. And more Hill with Walt Dickerson. And more Hill with Lee Konitz... But, man, wouldn't it be nice to hear those BLACK FIRE rehearsals with PJJ? The drums are so essential to Hill's music, and 9 times out of 10, account for why I prefer some Hill sessions over others.

Would love to hear Andrew Hill playing with a gamut of AACM'ers -- Roscoe Mitchell, Anthony Braxton, Douglas Ewart, George Lewis, Leo Smith, and so on. Though I don't think of him as much of an audible influence to these musicians, with the possible exception of Braxton and Mitchell, I do think his conception on records like SMOKESTACK and DIALOGUE was inspirational to them.

Finally, in all seriouness, the classic-era BN artists who I would have loved to hear work with Andrew Hill? Jackie McLean and Grachan Moncur III.

[Big Al]

Joe Henderson, bar none. Such interplay on Black Fire.

I like to think that Hill brought out the best in everyone he played with. Especially Hank Mobley. I know Mobe never played on a Hill session, but listen to No Room for Squares and the accompanying tracks from Straight No Filter. Hank sounds unusually inspired on those sessions, making the sessions sound like the germination of the inspiration behind Grass Roots. It's almost a shame they didn't record together more often.

Hard to pick a favorite drummer. Probably Joe Chambers, as he seems to fit in nicely with the whole Hill motif. Although Elvin Jones sure did fit in nicely on Judgement.

Another thing: can Hill play the b-3? Always wondered what it would sound like if Andrew Hill was keepin' it greeeazy!

[brownie]

He was not a BN artist but he and Andrew Hill made signifiant music: Roland Rahsaan Kirk. Was listening to Kirk's Domino album the other day. That was recorded in 1962 before Hill made it to the BN label but his contribution is very impressive. I understand Hill and Kirk were very good friends. Wish they had recorded more than this single album.

[mikeweil]

I love 'em all with Hill, but Richard Davis probably tops the list.

Johnny Coles would have been cool with Andrew, or Julius Watkins. Miles? No way - too egotistical for Andrew's music!

That Ron Horton story is great. Like this guy, recommend his CD:

He's also nice on Jane Ira Bloom's Art & Aviation.

[king ubu]

He was not a BN artist but he and Andrew Hill made signifiant music: Roland Rahsaan Kirk. Was listening to Kirk's Domino album the other day. That was recorded in 1962 before Hill made it to the BN label but his contribution is very impressive. I understand Hill and Kirk were very good friends. Wish they had recorded more than this single album.

Hell, it's not even a whole album! And the Rahsaan 10CD box included only one track from that live (Newport? can't remember) concert (and the others are listed in the discography included in the booklet... that's what I call tease!).

I listened to Domino recently, having bought the VME after realizing not everything from the Hancock date was in the box. Like the Hill session very much!

ubu

[.:.impossible]

I'll give two line-ups that I wish would have happened. I'm with Joe on the first one: Mclean/Moncur.

Jackie Mclean (as)

Grachan Moncur III (tb)

Andrew Hill (p)

Bobby Hutcherson (vb)

Richard Davis ( B )*

Anthony Williams (d) or Roy Haynes (d)

Recorded sometime during the second half of 1963 by Rudy Van Gelder on Blue Note, somewhere in the ONE STEP BEYOND, DESTINATION OUT!, EVOLUTION, SMOKESTACK, BLACK FIRE period.

This line-up has Blue Note Classic written all over it.

||||||||||| |||||||||||| |||| | ||| |||||||| ||||| ||||

The second line-up would involve a rotation of mucisians reflecting compositional instrumentation.

Andrew Hill (p)

Walt Dickerson (vb)

Richard Davis ( B )*

Andrew Cyrille (d, perc)

A series of duet and trio passages, along with the full quartet. Of course, this would have to be a Walt Dickerson album recorded sometime in the late 1970s by Elvin Campbell on SteepleChase.

Can you imagine?

Neither of these are too far fetched, considering all of these musicians were playing very well with each other at these times, or had played well with each other at earlier stages in their careers, just not in these exact combinations.

*edit

Edited November 4, 2003 by impossible

[mikeweil]

Andrew Cyrille would still be great with Andrew Hill !!! Palmetto could do a trio with Cyrille and Reggie Workman ...

[bertrand]

I'd like to hear Dewey Redman with Andrew Hill.

Bertrand.

[.:.impossible]

Andrew Cyrille would still be great with Andrew Hill !!! Palmetto could do a trio with Cyrille and Reggie Workman ...

As would Walt Dickerson, I'm sure! He's been practicing in solitude for the past twenty years...