Artie Shaw Mosaic box

[ghost of miles]

I've posted some news about it on the Night Lights site.

[Bright Moments]

nice!!

[Brad]

Thanks for the update. Any other rumors?

[king ubu]

Great news!

Also I'm crossing my fingers on the Jamal and Ellington Big Band sets!

[crisp]

This is very welcome news. I don't have any Shaw in my collection (his work tends to be limited to "best of" compilations, which I don't tend to buy). I wonder what Mosaic has against vocals, though?

[J.A.W.]

I wonder what Mosaic has against vocals, though?

Nothing. Some of their other sets (the Beiderbecke/Trumbauer/Teagarden set, for instance) have lots of vocals. Why don't you ask them why they're leaving out the vocals on this one?

[ghost of miles]

I wonder what Mosaic has against vocals, though?

Nothing. Some of their other sets (the Beiderbecke/Trumbauer/Teagarden set, for instance) have lots of vocals. Why don't you ask them why they're leaving out the vocals on this one?

The reasoning on the Goodman set was that almost all of the vocal material had been issued separately by Collectors' Choice or other labels. I haven't really checked on how much of the Helen Forrest etc. from Shaw's band is available elsewhere...but I'm guessing that including the vocals would make either the Shaw or Goodman boxes 12-13 CDs, which might be a bit unwieldy for cost/price/economic purposes in the present climate.

[tranemonk]

Yea a 13-CD set would be destructive... :wacko:

I can't see them issuing another set more than 10 CD's ever.. The last biggies were the Stitt and O'Day which came out at 9CDs

I wonder what Mosaic has against vocals, though?

Nothing. Some of their other sets (the Beiderbecke/Trumbauer/Teagarden set, for instance) have lots of vocals. Why don't you ask them why they're leaving out the vocals on this one?

The reasoning on the Goodman set was that almost all of the vocal material had been issued separately by Collectors' Choice or other labels. I haven't really checked on how much of the Helen Forrest etc. from Shaw's band is available elsewhere...but I'm guessing that including the vocals would make either the Shaw or Goodman boxes 12-13 CDs, which might be a bit unwieldy for cost/price/economic purposes in the present climate.

[Clunky]

I'd be interested to see what's covered by this set as it sounds as if it'll duplicate a fair number of the tracks found on Shaw 5 CD RCA set "Portrait" ( which also has very few vocals ) and the Hep 1944/1945 3 CD sets. Not sure I really need more of this type of material.

[J.A.W.]

Yea a 13-CD set would be destructive... :wacko:

I can't see them issuing another set more than 10 CD's ever.. The last biggies were the Stitt and O'Day which came out at 9CDs

I wonder what Mosaic has against vocals, though?

Nothing. Some of their other sets (the Beiderbecke/Trumbauer/Teagarden set, for instance) have lots of vocals. Why don't you ask them why they're leaving out the vocals on this one?

The reasoning on the Goodman set was that almost all of the vocal material had been issued separately by Collectors' Choice or other labels. I haven't really checked on how much of the Helen Forrest etc. from Shaw's band is available elsewhere...but I'm guessing that including the vocals would make either the Shaw or Goodman boxes 12-13 CDs, which might be a bit unwieldy for cost/price/economic purposes in the present climate.

The Jamal box and Ellington 1930s big-band set (with Sony-owned material only) will be 9 or 10 CDs each, if they ever come out.

Edited June 16, 2009 by J.A.W.

[Matthew]

I'm trying to think of this in a positive light, You know, the glass half full, but it would have been nice to get everything that Shaw did, remastered, great booklet, etc. I would pay whatever they wanted for that. Still, the instrumentals are gorgeous, and I hope the sound will be as good as the lp series, The Complete Artie Shaw, that Blue Bird put out. I assume (I'm on the road, so I can't look this up) that Shaw's first big band will be included, the one with the strings?

[J.A.W.]

I'm trying to think of this in a positive light, You know, the glass half full, but it would have been nice to get everything that Shaw did, remastered, great booklet, etc. I would pay whatever they wanted for that. Still, the instrumentals are gorgeous, and I hope the sound will be as good as the lp series, The Complete Artie Shaw, that Blue Bird put out. I assume (I'm on the road, so I can't look this up) that Shaw's first big band will be included, the one with the strings?

From Ghost's article on the Night Lights site (see his first post):

"The Shaw should be a fascinating set–covering the late-1930s “Begin the Beguine” period, the early-1940s big-band-with-strings (including sides such as “Evensong” and “Suite #8″ that seem to anticipate the Third Stream) and the clarinetist’s exciting, underrated 1944-45 orchestra."

Edited June 16, 2009 by J.A.W.

[Matthew]

I'm trying to think of this in a positive light, You know, the glass half full, but it would have been nice to get everything that Shaw did, remastered, great booklet, etc. I would pay whatever they wanted for that. Still, the instrumentals are gorgeous, and I hope the sound will be as good as the lp series, The Complete Artie Shaw, that Blue Bird put out. I assume (I'm on the road, so I can't look this up) that Shaw's first big band will be included, the one with the strings?

From Ghost's article on the Night Lights site (see his first post):

"The Shaw should be a fascinating set–covering the late-1930s "Begin the Beguine" period, the early-1940s big-band-with-strings (including sides such as "Evensong" and "Suite #8″ that seem to anticipate the Third Stream) and the clarinetist's exciting, underrated 1944-45 orchestra."

The Shaw big band I'm thinking of is the 1936-1937 version, the one he formed after the all-star big band concert at the Imperial Theatre in May 1936. I have a crummy comp of that band, I guess it would be his "anticipating-the-anticipating-the-thrid-stream-band of 1944-45," and I'd like to hear everything by the 36-37 band.

[ghost of miles]

I'm trying to think of this in a positive light, You know, the glass half full, but it would have been nice to get everything that Shaw did, remastered, great booklet, etc. I would pay whatever they wanted for that. Still, the instrumentals are gorgeous, and I hope the sound will be as good as the lp series, The Complete Artie Shaw, that Blue Bird put out. I assume (I'm on the road, so I can't look this up) that Shaw's first big band will be included, the one with the strings?

From Ghost's article on the Night Lights site (see his first post):

"The Shaw should be a fascinating set–covering the late-1930s "Begin the Beguine" period, the early-1940s big-band-with-strings (including sides such as "Evensong" and "Suite #8″ that seem to anticipate the Third Stream) and the clarinetist's exciting, underrated 1944-45 orchestra."

The Shaw big band I'm thinking of is the 1936-1937 version, the one he formed after the all-star big band concert at the Imperial Theatre in May 1936. I have a crummy comp of that band, I guess it would be his "anticipating-the-anticipating-the-thrid-stream-band of 1944-45," and I'd like to hear everything by the 36-37 band.

That's the Decca material and won't be included. For that I'd advise seeking out the Hep CDs IN THE BEGINNING and THE CHANT.

[Matthew]

I'm trying to think of this in a positive light, You know, the glass half full, but it would have been nice to get everything that Shaw did, remastered, great booklet, etc. I would pay whatever they wanted for that. Still, the instrumentals are gorgeous, and I hope the sound will be as good as the lp series, The Complete Artie Shaw, that Blue Bird put out. I assume (I'm on the road, so I can't look this up) that Shaw's first big band will be included, the one with the strings?

From Ghost's article on the Night Lights site (see his first post):

"The Shaw should be a fascinating set–covering the late-1930s "Begin the Beguine" period, the early-1940s big-band-with-strings (including sides such as "Evensong" and "Suite #8″ that seem to anticipate the Third Stream) and the clarinetist's exciting, underrated 1944-45 orchestra."

The Shaw big band I'm thinking of is the 1936-1937 version, the one he formed after the all-star big band concert at the Imperial Theatre in May 1936. I have a crummy comp of that band, I guess it would be his "anticipating-the-anticipating-the-thrid-stream-band of 1944-45," and I'd like to hear everything by the 36-37 band.

That's the Decca material and won't be included. For that I'd advise seeking out the Hep CDs IN THE BEGINNING and THE CHANT.

Curses, foiled again! Thanks for the reply Ghosty.

[J.A.W.]

I'm trying to think of this in a positive light, You know, the glass half full, but it would have been nice to get everything that Shaw did, remastered, great booklet, etc. I would pay whatever they wanted for that. Still, the instrumentals are gorgeous, and I hope the sound will be as good as the lp series, The Complete Artie Shaw, that Blue Bird put out. I assume (I'm on the road, so I can't look this up) that Shaw's first big band will be included, the one with the strings?

From Ghost's article on the Night Lights site (see his first post):

"The Shaw should be a fascinating set–covering the late-1930s "Begin the Beguine" period, the early-1940s big-band-with-strings (including sides such as "Evensong" and "Suite #8″ that seem to anticipate the Third Stream) and the clarinetist's exciting, underrated 1944-45 orchestra."

The Shaw big band I'm thinking of is the 1936-1937 version, the one he formed after the all-star big band concert at the Imperial Theatre in May 1936. I have a crummy comp of that band, I guess it would be his "anticipating-the-anticipating-the-thrid-stream-band of 1944-45," and I'd like to hear everything by the 36-37 band.

Ah, I see. The 1936-1937 band-with-strings recorded for Brunswick and I'm guessing that it falls outside the scope of the Mosaic set, which will probably be limited to Shaw's Bluebird dates.

(edit) Just saw Ghost's reply

Edited June 16, 2009 by J.A.W.

[J.A.W.]

Hep 1936-1938 Artie Shaw CDs

[J.A.W.]

Just heard from Mosaic's Scott Wenzel that the Ellington 1930s big-band set is scheduled for release in late 2010.

Edited June 16, 2009 by J.A.W.

[Matthew]

I wonder what Mosaic has against vocals, though?

Nothing. Some of their other sets (the Beiderbecke/Trumbauer/Teagarden set, for instance) have lots of vocals. Why don't you ask them why they're leaving out the vocals on this one?

The reasoning on the Goodman set was that almost all of the vocal material had been issued separately by Collectors' Choice or other labels. I haven't really checked on how much of the Helen Forrest etc. from Shaw's band is available elsewhere...but I'm guessing that including the vocals would make either the Shaw or Goodman boxes 12-13 CDs, which might be a bit unwieldy for cost/price/economic purposes in the present climate.

In a way, I can understand leaving the vocals out, but still, I think doing so creates a distorted picture of the Shaw band, and the era. iIwould say that the vocals tracks are essential to a valid understanding of any of the big bands, and to leave them out goes against the very reason Mosaic was created, as quoted from their website:

We want Mosaic Records Box Sets to be as important, and as complete as we can make them. Our sets include every significant track that falls within the scope of a given project, presented in an organized, chronological manner. We go into the vaults of as many record labels as necessary to examine all the original session tapes. In addition to all previously issued material, Mosaic box sets are usually rich with unreleased tracks and valid alternate takes. It's no accident we're considered the label for fans and collectors "who want it all".

It's nice that this set is being created, but I feel that this continuing trend, in terms of traditional big bands, weakens the historical and artistic viability of what Mosaic is doing. I don't want to go on rant, but still, I think Mosaic can do better. Still, in these financial times, this is way better than nothing.

[tranemonk]

Way way way better than nothing...

Me - I'll take what they give me....

I wonder what Mosaic has against vocals, though?

Nothing. Some of their other sets (the Beiderbecke/Trumbauer/Teagarden set, for instance) have lots of vocals. Why don't you ask them why they're leaving out the vocals on this one?

The reasoning on the Goodman set was that almost all of the vocal material had been issued separately by Collectors' Choice or other labels. I haven't really checked on how much of the Helen Forrest etc. from Shaw's band is available elsewhere...but I'm guessing that including the vocals would make either the Shaw or Goodman boxes 12-13 CDs, which might be a bit unwieldy for cost/price/economic purposes in the present climate.

In a way, I can understand leaving the vocals out, but still, I think doing so creates a distorted picture of the Shaw band, and the era. iIwould say that the vocals tracks are essential to a valid understanding of any of the big bands, and to leave them out goes against the very reason Mosaic was created, as quoted from their website:

We want Mosaic Records Box Sets to be as important, and as complete as we can make them. Our sets include every significant track that falls within the scope of a given project, presented in an organized, chronological manner. We go into the vaults of as many record labels as necessary to examine all the original session tapes. In addition to all previously issued material, Mosaic box sets are usually rich with unreleased tracks and valid alternate takes. It's no accident we're considered the label for fans and collectors "who want it all".

It's nice that this set is being created, but I feel that this continuing trend, in terms of traditional big bands, weakens the historical and artistic viability of what Mosaic is doing. I don't want to go on rant, but still, I think Mosaic can do better. Still, in these financial times, this is way better than nothing.

[ghost of miles]

I wonder what Mosaic has against vocals, though?

Nothing. Some of their other sets (the Beiderbecke/Trumbauer/Teagarden set, for instance) have lots of vocals. Why don't you ask them why they're leaving out the vocals on this one?

The reasoning on the Goodman set was that almost all of the vocal material had been issued separately by Collectors' Choice or other labels. I haven't really checked on how much of the Helen Forrest etc. from Shaw's band is available elsewhere...but I'm guessing that including the vocals would make either the Shaw or Goodman boxes 12-13 CDs, which might be a bit unwieldy for cost/price/economic purposes in the present climate.

In a way, I can understand leaving the vocals out, but still, I think doing so creates a distorted picture of the Shaw band, and the era. iIwould say that the vocals tracks are essential to a valid understanding of any of the big bands, and to leave them out goes against the very reason Mosaic was created, as quoted from their website:

We want Mosaic Records Box Sets to be as important, and as complete as we can make them. Our sets include every significant track that falls within the scope of a given project, presented in an organized, chronological manner. We go into the vaults of as many record labels as necessary to examine all the original session tapes. In addition to all previously issued material, Mosaic box sets are usually rich with unreleased tracks and valid alternate takes. It's no accident we're considered the label for fans and collectors "who want it all".

It's nice that this set is being created, but I feel that this continuing trend, in terms of traditional big bands, weakens the historical and artistic viability of what Mosaic is doing. I don't want to go on rant, but still, I think Mosaic can do better. Still, in these financial times, this is way better than nothing.

I hear ya, Matthew, and ideally I'd like a complete set, vocals and all, as well. I remember somebody (at this board or another one) talking about how they'd taken the Mosaic Goodman they'd bought and created cd-rs that incorporated the vocal tracks into the sessions, in chronological order...pretty painstaking work, I'd imagine, plus you'd have to actually already have all of the vocal sides and a discography. But where there's a will there's a way for jazz diehards! In the meantime, I'll join the chorus of gratitude for anything at all coming out (plus I'm a big Shaw junkie & will love hearing the material I haven't encountered before... I've got SELF-PORTRAIT and the Heps that cover this period, but I'm still sure there'll be sides that are new to me).

[gmonahan]

I wonder what Mosaic has against vocals, though?

Nothing. Some of their other sets (the Beiderbecke/Trumbauer/Teagarden set, for instance) have lots of vocals. Why don't you ask them why they're leaving out the vocals on this one?

The reasoning on the Goodman set was that almost all of the vocal material had been issued separately by Collectors' Choice or other labels. I haven't really checked on how much of the Helen Forrest etc. from Shaw's band is available elsewhere...but I'm guessing that including the vocals would make either the Shaw or Goodman boxes 12-13 CDs, which might be a bit unwieldy for cost/price/economic purposes in the present climate.

In a way, I can understand leaving the vocals out, but still, I think doing so creates a distorted picture of the Shaw band, and the era. iIwould say that the vocals tracks are essential to a valid understanding of any of the big bands, and to leave them out goes against the very reason Mosaic was created, as quoted from their website:

We want Mosaic Records Box Sets to be as important, and as complete as we can make them. Our sets include every significant track that falls within the scope of a given project, presented in an organized, chronological manner. We go into the vaults of as many record labels as necessary to examine all the original session tapes. In addition to all previously issued material, Mosaic box sets are usually rich with unreleased tracks and valid alternate takes. It's no accident we're considered the label for fans and collectors "who want it all".

It's nice that this set is being created, but I feel that this continuing trend, in terms of traditional big bands, weakens the historical and artistic viability of what Mosaic is doing. I don't want to go on rant, but still, I think Mosaic can do better. Still, in these financial times, this is way better than nothing.

I hear ya, Matthew, and ideally I'd like a complete set, vocals and all, as well. I remember somebody (at this board or another one) talking about how they'd taken the Mosaic Goodman they'd bought and created cd-rs that incorporated the vocal tracks into the sessions, in chronological order...pretty painstaking work, I'd imagine, plus you'd have to actually already have all of the vocal sides and a discography. But where there's a will there's a way for jazz diehards! In the meantime, I'll join the chorus of gratitude for anything at all coming out (plus I'm a big Shaw junkie & will love hearing the material I haven't encountered before... I've got SELF-PORTRAIT and the Heps that cover this period, but I'm still sure there'll be sides that are new to me).

It would indeed be hard work. The Collector's Choice 3-cd set of the Forrest vocals is ok, and the Columbia 2-cd of the Peggy Lees is better, but there are a few outliers (Dick Haymes, others) that are hard to pull together.

I'll also go for the Shaw set (I go for all the Mosaic sets). Are there vocal-only sets out there from the Shaw period as there are for Goodman that hopeless completists like me could get? I can't recall seeing any recently.

Good news about the Ellington set, but will that also leave out the vocals, I wonder?--no Ivie Anderson? Al Hibbler?

greg mo

[ghost of miles]

I'll also go for the Shaw set (I go for all the Mosaic sets). Are there vocal-only sets out there from the Shaw period as there are for Goodman that hopeless completists like me could get? I can't recall seeing any recently.

Good news about the Ellington set, but will that also leave out the vocals, I wonder?--no Ivie Anderson? Al Hibbler?

greg mo

Sadly, I can't even think of Shaw's vocalists right now from the 1938-1945 period outside of Helen Forrest...Tony Pastor? And there were a couple of others, I think...Billie Holiday too, of course, for 1938, but she's documented only on "Any Old Time".

I'd guess the Ellington set will have Ivie. (Hope they do, esp. since those two Hep volumes are so hard to come by these days; in the meantime, I think there's quite a lot of Ivy on that great 4-CD DKE 1930s import.) Al came later, in the 1940s.

[J.A.W.]

I'll also go for the Shaw set (I go for all the Mosaic sets). Are there vocal-only sets out there from the Shaw period as there are for Goodman that hopeless completists like me could get? I can't recall seeing any recently.

Good news about the Ellington set, but will that also leave out the vocals, I wonder?--no Ivie Anderson? Al Hibbler?

greg mo

Sadly, I can't even think of Shaw's vocalists right now from the 1938-1945 period outside of Helen Forrest...Tony Pastor? And there were a couple of others, I think...Billie Holiday too, of course, for 1938, but she's documented only on "Any Old Time".

I'd guess the Ellington set will have Ivie. (Hope they do, esp. since those two Hep volumes are so hard to come by these days; in the meantime, I think there's quite a lot of Ivy on that great 4-CD DKE 1930s import.) Al came later, in the 1940s.

Correct, the Ellington set will have Ivie.

Edited June 16, 2009 by J.A.W.

[gmonahan]

I looked up Shaw vocalists. There were a fair number besides Helen Forrest: Kitty Kallen, Peg LaCentra, Anita Boyer, Bonnie Lake, Paula Kelly, Fredda Gibson, Imogene Lynn. Pastor did a number of vocals on novelty tunes, and both Hot Lips Page and Roy Eldridge played in his bands. Page sang, of course, but I don't remember if Eldridge did any vocals for Shaw. He did a few for Gene Krupa.

Somehow, I have the feeling there aren't too many Fredda Gibson cds out there!!

greg mo