Quasimado Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Warne Marsh - Live in Las Vegas (I think you know it) - and/or Look Up & Live 1964 Tristano Quintet on Jazz Records. Q Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeBop Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Funny... I guess Pink Floyd is mostly "known" for their work in the 70s, but I think their best music was at the tail end of the '60s and that work was decidedly avant-garde. 1967's Piper at the Gates of Dawn is a classic, and Saucerful of Secrets isn't too shabby either. Not sure why, but I put Pink Floyd on my list, then took it off. A fine choice, I'd think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Ptah Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Allen, I think that the first few chapters of this book would be an excellent source for you. I think that Nicholson does a credible job of covering the mid to late 1960s in terms of musicians who were doing something new and different, and were the forerunners of the jazz/rock fusion to follow.Don't forget the work of Charles Mingus and Eric Dolphy, together and apart, in the 1960s. Also the Andrew Hill Blue Notes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted October 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 I agree about the Nicholson book - and that Earl Brown looks very interesting - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Yeah, Earle Brown's compositions are cool but his work as a producer is also quite important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmirBagachelles Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Derek Bailey and cohorts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Ptah Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 The song "If You Grin (You're In)" on James Moody's "Running The Gamut" album, produced by Ed Bland, should be considered. This is a 1964 recording which contains much of what was considered groundbreaking 5-10 years later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Derek Bailey and cohorts Again, those are folks I'd really put more into the 1970s time period, even if early work appeared at the close of the '60s. I forgot to mention Albert Mangelsdorff and the Kuhn brothers earlier. I was trying to keep my list short, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 May I suggest some of the following from UK and Europe? Albert Mangelsdorff Manfred Schoof Joe Harriott Quintet and Harriott/Mayer Indo-Jazz Fusions Amancio D'Silva John Surman Mike Westbrook (60s Orchestra) Chitinous Ensemble (just bordering on the 70s I guess) Mike Taylor Jan Johansson Neil Ardley/New Jazz Orchestra Mischa Mengelberg Martial Solal SME Cornelius Cardew/AACM John Taylor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Speaking of Pink Floyd--the early stages of the Canterbury scene predate the 70's by a couple of years, so you can at least include Soft Machine (Soft Machine III is brutal avant-rock in its own way). Very early Can and Magma can also be slotted into late 60's/70's. Early jazz rock (not fusion), too--not just Miles but also the Tony Williams Lifetime, Mwandishi (the eponymous album was recorded in 1969), and early Sonny Sharrock (more "free jazz" than jazz rock, but distinct enough in its use of the electric guitar to merit its own category). Also, the Blue Notes (South African free improv/free jazz) were playing in a very free/avant idiom prior to 1970 (their very out "debut," Very Urgent, dates from 1968). Even though they're essentially contemporaries of the UK/German/Dutch free improvisers, their particular kind of radicalism lines up more clearly (timeline-wise) with Shepp, Ornette, etc. May I suggest some of the following from UK and Europe? Albert Mangelsdorff Manfred Schoof Joe Harriott Quintet and Harriott/Mayer Indo-Jazz Fusions Amancio D'Silva John Surman Mike Westbrook (60s Orchestra) Chitinous Ensemble (just bordering on the 70s I guess) Mike Taylor Jan Johansson Neil Ardley/New Jazz Orchestra Mischa Mengelberg Martial Solal SME Cornelius Cardew/AACM John Taylor Don't want to be "that guy," but you mean AMM, right? Great call, btw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) Don't want to be "that guy," but you mean AMM, right? Great call, btw. Yep ! I was mixing up my 1960s radical innovator abbreviations. Edited October 17, 2011 by sidewinder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Not to be the burr in the carpet, but I guess I am a little uncertain of whether to include musicians/artists in such a list whose actual mature period/floruit happened a little later. Like Brotzmann is a good example - he began recording in 1966, but really the important/mature work didn't start coming together until the early 1970s. I have trouble calling someone like that a "60s musician." I won't get too deep into my own opinion that his work now is perhaps more interesting/compelling than the earlier stuff, even though his FMPs are pretty indispensable in their own right. Breuker was in the shit in the 60s, too, but he's another one for whom the following decade seems more... "his," despite the fact that I like his records from 1966-1968. Are musicians who are taking steps toward a certain "thing" to be included, when the "thing" really came into being later? I guess that's why they call it the avant-garde, but artistic maturity/significance is certainly something to consider here. I know it's also a challenge to separate "good records" from an individual's importance in the environment and its history, and lord knows how canonizing can really fuck things up. Sometimes I can go either way on whether someone should be a chapter, a paragraph, or a footnote. Just my .02. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) that is indeed a difficult question - if you want to come up with something truly remarkable and original in 1971, you've probably been working on it for a good portion of the sixties, too... that holds to a lesser degree for less original music... i am far from a brötzmann expert but his 60s output includes For Adolphe Sax (1967) Machine Gun (1968) Nipples (1969) More Nipples (1969) Fuck de Boere: Dedicated to Johnny Dyani (1970) would agree though that brötzmann's music had a decided "the sixties are over" appeal already on Machine Gun (roughly, taking the music of Albert Ayler and replacing the spiritual side with beer, tits and automatic weapons) here's another supporter of Soft Machine btw Edited October 17, 2011 by Niko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 and that roguish/humorous aspect of PB's work (esp. with Van Hove/Bennink) was replaced with a much more spiritual music in the 90s and 00s, ironically. I have recordings of PB dating to '66 with Carla Bley and Steve Lacy, so he was definitely "there" in the latter half of the decade and he was certainly important in unseating some of the previously-held aesthetic convictions in German jazz, ones which people like Schoof and v. Schlippenbach held even into their early avant-garde works. But, I'd still maintain that as a musician-composer, his art came into its own at the turn of another time cycle. It'd be pretty easy to make the case, too, that 1967-1972 is its own period not "of the '60s" or "of the '70s" either, closely tied with Vietnam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted October 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) I would include their '60s work, specifically (if applicable) as it applies to their more mature work; especially as it might be said the '60s attitudes paved the way - Edited October 17, 2011 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lark Ascending Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 (Soft Machine III is brutal avant-rock in its own way). Might not have been what was common, even in 'progressive' circles, but hardly 'brutal'. Always sounds pretty lyrical to me. Now Elton Dean's 'Just Us' from a little later... ************* Is it possible to anthologise a decade where the participants are not here and where those who remember it were not there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny weir Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 a 1960s music project that, while not all encompassing, covers rock and roll, jazz, and the (non-jazz) avant garde from that era Blimey, can't help but compare Allen's opening salvo with the overwhelming content of subsequent posts. I don't see much rock and roll being discussed here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cih Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 I don't see much rock and roll being discussed here. maybe Rock and Roll seems to be not easily compatible with 'avant-garde'?... I mean, rock and roll as I think of it seems to eschew 'artiness' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejp626 Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 a 1960s music project that, while not all encompassing, covers rock and roll, jazz, and the (non-jazz) avant garde from that era Blimey, can't help but compare Allen's opening salvo with the overwhelming content of subsequent posts. I don't see much rock and roll being discussed here. True, but he also explicitly stated that he was coming here more for the jazz-side of things and implied he was going elsewhere for rock and roll opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 The Softs were great. There was a lot of lyricism as well as brutality - I think the very early trio with Ayers was pretty f'in intense and messy. The live recordings that Cuneiform released bear that out, and their first LP is pretty much a razor's edge record if there ever was one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardbopjazz Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 How about Charles Brackeen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Ptah Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 Allen, there is an issue of a music magazine, I think it's The Wire, but I am not sure (but I have it in my basement somewhere) where a guy wrote an entire article about the 1960s psychedelic music scene in Europe. An issue or two later, someone wrote a letter to the editor saying that the author must have known little about the subject because he missed the following signficant albums, and then there was a long list. The original author replied that he did indeed know almost nothing about the subject matter and wished he'd had the letter writer's help when he wrote the article. I will try to find these issues for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Ptah Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 For rock, I suggest Dr. John's "Gris Gris" album, the group Spirit, and you cannot forget the Fugs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 On the rock side (besides the already mentioned Velvet Underground and Sly & The Family Stone),though it might be too obvious... Dylan & The Band (Hawks) on their 1966 tour. Also Jimi Hendrix? And definitely James Brown! (when he got rid of song structures and re-built his music and music in general, 1964-69) The Chitinous Ensemble LP is terrific and needn't be omitted - though I have it as from 1971... it would fit in better with the suggested 1967-72 time frame. The others have all been mentioned, I think... Taylor, Ornette, of course you won't miss Coltrane, Miles and Mingus? Lyons, Harriott... Wilen, Mangelsdorff, Brötzmann... what about Mengelberg and Bennink? And how about Fela Kuti? (and Tony Allen) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 Allen, there is an issue of a music magazine, I think it's The Wire, but I am not sure (but I have it in my basement somewhere) where a guy wrote an entire article about the 1960s psychedelic music scene in Europe. An issue or two later, someone wrote a letter to the editor saying that the author must have known little about the subject because he missed the following signficant albums, and then there was a long list. The original author replied that he did indeed know almost nothing about the subject matter and wished he'd had the letter writer's help when he wrote the article. I will try to find these issues for you. Oh Jesus. Sounds like the Wire these days... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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