Tom in RI Posted November 16, 2012 Report Posted November 16, 2012 I suggested on another board that Richard Bock had a habit of editing his releases and destroying masters in the process. I cited the 1st Jim Hall lp as an example. I believe I have seen other instances of this in reading liner notes through the years. Can anyone remember other examples of Bock editing master tapes? Quote
JamesAHarrod Posted November 17, 2012 Report Posted November 17, 2012 Sadly, all too true. The Cy Touff / Richie Kamuca sessions are another example. Jim Quote
jeffcrom Posted November 17, 2012 Report Posted November 17, 2012 One other example I can think of off the top of my head is the version of Chico Hamilton's Ellington Suite with Eric Dolphy. Three tracks were issued back in the day in edited form (one only on a promo sampler). The master tapes are gone, apparently. The only reason we have the CD of the full session is that a test pressing somehow ended up in a record store in Brighton, England in 1995. The CD is mastered from that test record, and it sounds remarkably good - I'm listening right now. Quote
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted November 17, 2012 Report Posted November 17, 2012 hi, are you workin on a bock bio or a world pacific history book? i am interested in bocks story, what happened to him in the 60s, did he submerge himself in the counterculture, altering the course of his label? looking at the releases through the sixties, this really seems apparent..... Quote
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted November 17, 2012 Report Posted November 17, 2012 One other example I can think of off the top of my head is the version of Chico Hamilton's Ellington Suite with Eric Dolphy. Three tracks were issued back in the day in edited form (one only on a promo sampler). The master tapes are gone, apparently. The only reason we have the CD of the full session is that a test pressing somehow ended up in a record store in Brighton, England in 1995. The CD is mastered from that test record, and it sounds remarkably good - I'm listening right now. Oh goodness! The Record Album, North Street! Spent many a happy hour there until we moved to Cardiff. It was a couple of doors away from a newsagent/tobacconist/sweet shop run by a tenor player who'd worked with many of the thirties big bands in the UK. Anything good in the jazz line that came into the Record Album would be snapped up by Benny or his sons, Pete (piano) and Geoff (bari, tenor & alto sax). The basement had the largest record collection I'd seen outside of a shop. MG Quote
Tom in RI Posted November 17, 2012 Author Report Posted November 17, 2012 Thanks for the responses, keep 'em coming. Chewy, I am not writing a book, that's Chuck's sense of humor. My attention span is way to short to contemplate writing a book. Quote
Daniel A Posted November 17, 2012 Report Posted November 17, 2012 I think it was directed at James Harrod who is writing a book. Quote
JamesAHarrod Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 Work on the history of the Pacific jazz / World Pacific label is ongoing. No end date in sight at the moment. The plunge into the blogosphere has added another dimension as the subjects of the blogs are directly and tangentially tied to the Pacific Jazz history. Getting back to Bock’s bad habits, he was interviewed at length by Will Thornbury. In one interview segment Bock offered that he found the typical practice of allowing all musicians solo space on a tune to be repetitive and predictable, and thus he would edit out the bass solo, or the second solo by the leader, or the trading of fours with the drummer so that the timing differed on the finished product. No mention was made of doing these edits on a copy of the master, or regarding the master tape as inviolable. Alternate takes were often used on 78 and 45 releases, many of these have been documented over the years. Alternate takes from the John Lewis / Bill Perkins 2º East 3º West session were issued on European EP releases. The Eric Dolphy / Chico Hamilton case brings to mind another session that was shelved by Bock. In 1962 a quintet session with Frank Strazzeri and Joe “Mouse” Bonati was discarded. The session was recorded again with Hadley Caliman replacing Bonati. This session was shelved and not released until Michael Cuscuna put together the Carmel Jones Mosaic Select box. Mulligan’s Stringtime session likewise did not see the light of day until it was released on a Mosaic Select box. Jim Quote
Dan Gould Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 Alternate takes were often used on 78 and 45 releases, many of these have been documented over the years. Is there any documentation of alternates used for Curtis Amy, Carmell Jones, Clifford Scott or Charles Kynard 45s? Quote
JSngry Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 Alternate takes from the John Lewis / Bill Perkins 2º East 3º West session were issued on European EP releases. Details, please? Quote
mikeweil Posted November 19, 2012 Report Posted November 19, 2012 Yes!!! I wonder why Cuscuna did not include them on the CD reissue of that fine album ... I guess he had no idea. Quote
JSngry Posted November 19, 2012 Report Posted November 19, 2012 If there's an alternate of "Almost Like Being In Love" ...I need to hear that for personal reasons. Quote
johnlitweiler Posted November 19, 2012 Report Posted November 19, 2012 Who distributed Pacific Jazz in LA in the 1950s-'60s? Lester Koenig was part-owner of an LA record distributor and I wonder if 1 or 2 outfits handled all the small jazz labels then. Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted November 20, 2012 Report Posted November 20, 2012 I might get back to you later about this. George Hocutt was a partner and was operating into the '90s. I had good and bad experiences. Quote
JamesAHarrod Posted November 20, 2012 Report Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) Q: Is there any documentation of alternates used for Curtis Amy, Carmell Jones, Clifford Scott or Charles Kynard 45s? The alternates seem to be confined to the earlier releases from 1952-1955. I have not found any alternates on later sessions with the artists mentioned above. Q: Details please - re Alternate takes from the John Lewis / Bill Perkins 2º East 3º West session were issued on European EP releases. Love Me or Leave Me and Almost Like Being In Love on UK (Vogue) EPV 1239 and World Pacific EP4-55 (ton-treu schallplatten) Q: If there's an alternate of "Almost Like Being In Love" ...I need to hear that for personal reasons. I will do a write up of some of these alternates on my jazz research blog, include audio samples of the alternates, might not get to this until next year. Q: Yes!!! I wonder why Cuscuna did not include them on the CD reissue of that fine album ... I guess he had no idea. I told Michael about them after I confirmed them, but there was no further reissue planned at that time. He did include alternates on the reissue of the Clifford Brown Ensemble reissue, the second RVG CD reissue. Q: Who distributed Pacific Jazz in LA in the 1950s-'60s? Lester Koenig was part-owner of an LA record distributor and I wonder if 1 or 2 outfits handled all the small jazz labels then. Les Koenig established California Record Distributors in Los Angeles in the early 1950s. Jack Lewerke managed California Record Distributors until he left that position to head up Interdisc in Europe. Edited November 21, 2012 by James Harrod Quote
JSngry Posted November 20, 2012 Report Posted November 20, 2012 And these are actual alternate takes of the Perkins/Lewis/Etc, not edited versions of the album cuts? Quote
JamesAHarrod Posted November 20, 2012 Report Posted November 20, 2012 Q: And these are actual alternate takes of the Perkins/Lewis/Etc, not edited versions of the album cuts? Yes. Quote
JazzLover451 Posted November 22, 2012 Report Posted November 22, 2012 Wow, this is a revealing thread. Glad to be a fly on the wall... Quote
JSngry Posted November 22, 2012 Report Posted November 22, 2012 Q: Details please - re Alternate takes from the John Lewis / Bill Perkins 2º East 3º West session were issued on European EP releases. Love Me or Leave Me and Almost Like Being In Love on UK (Vogue) EPV 1239 and World Pacific EP4-55 (ton-treu schallplatten) Same alternate takes on both EPs? If one finds one EP, one has the same music as is on the other? Quote
JamesAHarrod Posted December 5, 2012 Report Posted December 5, 2012 Q: Same alternate takes on both EPs? If one finds one EP, one has the same music as is on the other? Yes, both the UK Vogue EP and the German ton-treu EP were pressed from the same mother, identical matrices. Jim Quote
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted December 5, 2012 Report Posted December 5, 2012 I hope that, when the book on WP/PJ is finished, you'll come here and tell us. That's one I definitely want to read. MG Quote
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted December 6, 2012 Report Posted December 6, 2012 Q: what happened to Bock in the sixties- the label practically goes psych.......did he ever "make it out" of the sixties? what happened to him after that decade....? Quote
JamesAHarrod Posted January 27, 2013 Report Posted January 27, 2013 Finally completed a write up on the Grand Encounter alternates on the European EP releases. It is at: http://jazzwestcoastresearch.blogspot.com/2013/01/grand-encounter-alternate-takes-james-a.html The alternates can be downloaded. Jim Quote
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