Pete Christlieb Warne Marsh "Apogee" reissued in Japan

[soulpope]

As Pete Christlieb Warne Marsh "Apogee" is currently reissued in Japan, may I ask for some thoughts reg subject recording.

[sgcim]

I was surprised to read in the Warne Marsh bio, "An Unsung Cat" that this was a pretty negative experience for Warne, because of the poor production choices of Becker and Fagen of Steely Dan, the record's producers.

It must have been pretty hard to fuck up a session with two of the best tenor players around, but somehow Becker and Fagen managed to really make idiots out of themselves, according to the bio.

Edited April 7, 2014 by sgcim

[JohnS]

Decent enough but I didn't find it a keeper. Can't recall now why I sold it.

[Stereojack]

I have to say something poositive about this session. I think too much has been said anout the supposed "production excesses" of this record. It is a very good straight ahead session featuring some fine blowing from all. This record was made as a condition of Steely Dan's signing with Warner Brothers (they were previously on ABC/MCA).

"Rapunzel", based on Burt Bacharach's "In the Land of Make Believe", is a highlight of the album.

[TedR]

Whether they were effective producers or not is for someone else to say. But I was always impressed that Becker/Fagan, as self described "tenor freaks" and longtime jazz fans, were aware of the greatness of Marsh and hoped to get more recognition for him. I became aware of him for the first time through this record and started searching for more of his recordings.

[JSngry]

It's a good record.

[mjzee]

As Pete Christlieb Warne Marsh "Apogee" is currently reissued in Japan, may I ask for some thoughts reg subject recording.

Make sure it contains the 3 bonus tracks not on the original album: Lunarcy, Love Me, How About You.

I also think it's a good album. It's interesting to hear straight-ahead jazz recorded in a world-class studio. I enjoyed Christlieb more than Marsh; Lou Levy is a monster.

[soulpope]

As Pete Christlieb Warne Marsh "Apogee" is currently reissued in Japan, may I ask for some thoughts reg subject recording.

Make sure it contains the 3 bonus tracks not on the original album: Lunarcy, Love Me, How About You.

I also think it's a good album. It's interesting to hear straight-ahead jazz recorded in a world-class studio. I enjoyed Christlieb more than Marsh; Lou Levy is a monster.

yes the japanese reissue features the three bonus tracks - it`s interesting to read the rather broad variety of opinions expressed for the time being.......

[Head Man]

I must admit I don't play this one very much; I much prefer their other recording from 1978 "Conversations with Warne" which has the same personnel but omits Lou Levy on piano. (I wonder if that's why I prefer it?)

Anyway, I never knew that Steely Dan were involved in its production. What's the story behind that?

Edited April 7, 2014 by Head Man

[medjuck]

Somewhere on this board I once mentioned that the piano sounds almost like an electric piano. One response was that that was the result of the "dryness" the Steely Dan guys liked.

[sgcim]

I must admit I don't play this one very much; I much prefer their other recording from 1978 "Conversations with Warne" which has the same personnel but omits Lou Levy on piano. (I wonder if that's why I prefer it?)

Anyway, I never knew that Steely Dan were involved in its production. What's the story behind that?

It's a pretty fascinating story that illustrates William Gaddis' theory of "Capitalism and the Arts- the destructive element".

From the book, "An Unsung Cat":

Marsh and Christlieb were disappointed with the way the LP turned out. They wanted just two tenors and bass and drums like in their private sessions.

together. Becker and Fagen however added Lou Levy on piano, and used arr. by Joe Roccisano.

WM and PC maintained that WB and DF not only chose the wrong takes, but destroyed the true sound of the band through their engineering techniques.

WM said that WB and DF, "spoiled the master in such a way that you really lose the presence of the band. We have a master that's just spectacular.

So we feel that that they just castrated the music. They didn't quite know what to do with us.

Originally they wanted just me alone, but I wanted Pete because Pete can really play. There was no trouble with the band, but the producers had something else in mind."

In 5 days, the group recorded a total of 33 takes of ten different tunes. Becker and Fagen rejected a half dozen tunes entirely, and even on tunes they accepted,

PC said they chose takes that the band didn't like.

"Everything we worked for was in jeopardy. They didn't want what we wanted."

The group was particularly dismayed that WB and DF rejected a "Body and Soul" that the group loved.

"They looked at it with such disdain, that it wore a hole in our soul. That one tune in place of their tune "Rapunzel" would have made an entirely different LP today."

PC appealed to Warner Bros. executives in an attempt to rein WB and DF in, but was told that his problem was with the producers, not them (WB).

Becker and Fagen made it clear that the LP would be done their way, or it would be Shitcanned(!).

After Marsh returned to NY, Christlieb and the rhythm section were called back in to the studio to record five more tunes, but only one, "I'm Old Fashioned" was

used. If Marsh was called for this final session- PC said he wasn't- he declined."

As a previous poster said, 1991's "Conversations With Warne" on Criss Cross is the same band without the piano that consisted of material recorded before the 1978 "Apogee" sessions.

Edited April 7, 2014 by sgcim

[fasstrack]

I was surprised to read in the Warne Marsh bio, "An Unsung Cat" that this was a pretty negative experience for Warne, because of the poor production choices of Becker and Fagen of Steely Dan, the record's producers.

It must have been pretty hard to fuck up a session with two of the best tenor players around, but somehow Becker and Fagen managed to really make idiots out of themselves, according to the bio.

If I recall from the book it was Becker and Fagens' meddling on the tune order that did the damage.

[soulpope]

I must admit I don't play this one very much; I much prefer their other recording from 1978 "Conversations with Warne" which has the same personnel but omits Lou Levy on piano. (I wonder if that's why I prefer it?)

OK, interesting hint - this are the two Criss Cross CD`s "Conversations with Warne Vol1 + Vol. 2 " - which one you would suggest to try first, if there`s a preference feasible at all ?

Lou Levy`s leaves me recurringly puzzled, sometimes enjoying his playing and other times having seemingly similar sentiments as mentioned earlier reg. Apogee......

I must admit I don't play this one very much; I much prefer their other recording from 1978 "Conversations with Warne" which has the same personnel but omits Lou Levy on piano. (I wonder if that's why I prefer it?)

Anyway, I never knew that Steely Dan were involved in its production. What's the story behind that?

It's a pretty fascinating story that illustrates William Gaddis' theory of "Capitalism and the Arts- the destructive element".

From the book, "An Unsung Cat":

Marsh and Christlieb were disappointed with the way the LP turned out. They wanted just two tenors and bass and drums like in their private sessions.

together. Becker and Fagen however added Lou Levy on piano, and used arr. by Joe Roccisano.

WM and PC maintained that WB and DF not only chose the wrong takes, but destroyed the true sound of the band through their engineering techniques.

WM said that WB and DF, "spoiled the master in such a way that you really lose the presence of the band. We have a master that's just spectacular.

So we feel that that they just castrated the music. They didn't quite know what to do with us.

Originally they wanted just me alone, but I wanted Pete because Pete can really play. There was no trouble with the band, but the producers had something else in mind."

In 5 days, the group recorded a total of 33 takes of ten different tunes. Becker and Fagen rejected a half dozen tunes entirely, and even on tunes they accepted,

PC said they chose takes that the band didn't like.

"Everything we worked for was in jeopardy. They didn't want what we wanted."

The group was particularly dismayed that WB and DF rejected a "Body and Soul" that the group loved.

"They looked at it with such disdain, that it wore a hole in our soul. That one tune in place of their tune "Rapunzel" would have made an entirely different LP today."

PC appealed to Warner Bros. executives in an attempt to rein WB and DF in, but was told that his problem was with the producers, not them (WB).

Becker and Fagen made it clear that the LP would be done their way, or it would be Shitcanned(!).

After Marsh returned to NY, Christlieb and the rhythm section were called back in to the studio to record five more tunes, but only one, "I'm Old Fashioned" was

used. If Marsh was called for this final session- PC said he wasn't- he declined."

As a previous poster said, 1991's "Conversations With Warne" on Criss Cross is the same band without the piano that consisted of material recorded before the 1978 "Apogee" sessions.

thanx for sharing, much appreciated !!!

[Larry Kart]

As far as Lou Levy goes, he plays great with Warne, as an accompanist and soloist, on "All Music" (Nessa).

[soulpope]

As far as Lou Levy goes, he plays great with Warne, as an accompanist and soloist, on "All Music" (Nessa).

seconded, no doubt about it.

[gmonahan]

Wow--this was all news to me. I bought the original LP and enjoyed it, especially "Tenors of the Time." I have the cd with bonus tracks and always enjoyed it. Now I'd be interested to hear the takes the musicians wanted issued!

gregmo

[BFrank]

I haven't heard this in years, but I remember getting it when it came out. I liked it at the time, but it didn't hold up for some reason - maybe a little sterile, which would explain a lot.

[JSngry]

Yeah, the rock stars fucked up a jazz record, oh well, it's still Warne Marsh, and it's still a good record. I don't really like what they did to his tone (they fucked that up worse than anything else, imo), but I've heard enough Warne Marsh that my brain can compensate. People get pissed off about that sometimes, that their brain has to do the work instead of the record handing it to them. That must be one of those Post-Digital paradigms or something.

It's a good record, everything on it s good. Fuck the "sound", the producers, the choice of takes, fuck all that and just listen to the playing. It's a good record. It's not my "favorite" Warne Marsh record, but hell, when it came out, do you remember how many other Warne Marsh records there were to get? Less than the then-total of Sonny Stitt & Lee Konitz combined!

It's a good record. Know the history, angst about the fuckups, but dig the music, it's there. Or are there too many Warne Marsh records these days?

[Clunky]

Lou Levy is great. Marsh is always interesting . Apogee is average. The sound is badly compressed but very much better on the three unreleased takes. It's not Warner's best but it's well worth a listen or two.

[sgcim]

Well, at least WM got to split the 15K that Becker and Fagen allowed him and PC, out of the 50K budget that Warner Bros. allowed them.

That's $7,500, probably the most money WM had ever seen at one time.

While I think that Becker and Fagen have written some of the best pop tunes of the last 40 years, their pop perfectionist attitude towards a jazz record made what could have been a great record somewhat less than that. I haven't listened to it in ages after being initially disappointed in it.

While we're on the topic of the SD boys and jazz, it may be edifying to some people here that they ripped off Keith Jarrett's intro to "As Long As You're Getting Yours" (OSLT?) for their pop masterpiece "Gaucho".

Keith wouldn't let them get way with it, and now his name is included on the songwriting credits.

[Chuck Nessa]

When we recorded Warne's "All Music" Lou Levy gave me the publishing rights to "Lunarcy" and Warne offered a couple of tunes we recorded. I had no publishing company and had never dealt with this aspect of the business but accepted. After the "Apogee" sessions, Lou asked for the tune back and I agreed - and then it wasn't included on the original record. Too bad for Lou.

Warne told me of drugs all over the place at the studio and after the session the players were given cassettes. They were all used to reel to reel tapes so the producers ordered Nakamichis for the band.

[Head Man]

What a great thread......that's why I LOVE this place!

Thanks everyone!

BTW I have no real preference for either of the two volumes of "Conversations with Warne". Get whatever's the cheapest, soulpope, and see what you think.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Head Man

[soulpope]

What a great thread......that's why I LOVE this place!

Thanks everyone!

BTW I have no real preference for either of the two volumes of "Conversations with Warne". Get whatever's the cheapest, soulpope, and see what you think.

will do so, thnx....

[TedR]

While we're on the topic of the SD boys and jazz, it may be edifying to some people here that they ripped off Keith Jarrett's intro to "As Long As You're Getting Yours" (OSLT?) for their pop masterpiece "Gaucho".

Keith wouldn't let them get way with it, and now his name is included on the songwriting credits. (from sgcim's post)

From what I recall SD's Riki Don't Lose That Number has an introduction that is the theme from a Horace Silver tune (Song for my Father?).

Edited April 8, 2014 by TedR

[sgcim]

Yeah, but I don't think they copied enough notes for Horace to get a big payday from those two funky white boys.

Keith really took them to the cleaners.