ghost of miles Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 I'm rereading Bill Coss' Dec. 6, 1962 DownBeat article "Lennie Tristano Speaks Out" and noticed this Tristano quote: "(Critics) should listen in person in many different circumstances. John Coltrane, for example, sounded different with two basses and Elvin Jones than he did with me." Are there any known instances of Coltrane and Tristano performing together? I checked Eunmi Shim's Tristano biography and couldn't find a reference to any such encounter. Or am I misreading Tristano's quote? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted January 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Just checked the 2008 Coltrane reference book and it yields no reports of such an encounter either. They crossed paths at a benefit concert at Birdland in February 1950 that featured numerous groups (Coltrane, obviously still an unknown at that point, was playing with Dizzy Gillespie), but Tristano's reference seems to be contemporaneous. I'm not questioning LT's veracity, btw; just curious to learn more (would be even more interesting to HEAR, of course). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Late Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 December 1962. I wonder if Tristano and Coltrane would have crossed paths again ... at The Half Note? I'm guessing Tristano would have heard Giant Steps by this point. I wonder what he thought of that record. For that matter, I wonder what Coltrane thought of Warne Marsh's playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigP Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 December 1962. I wonder if Tristano and Coltrane would have crossed paths again ... at The Half Note? I'm guessing Tristano would have heard Giant Steps by this point. I wonder what he thought of that record. For that matter, I wonder what Coltrane thought of Warne Marsh's playing. That's weird...I've been listening to a lot of Coltrane and Marsh lately and had the exact same question come to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 I have to talk to Lewis Porter this weekend; will ask and report back if he knows of anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnblitweiler Posted January 24, 2015 Report Share Posted January 24, 2015 Dave Liebman, a Tristano student, told me that Tristano had a low opinion of Coltrane's music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danasgoodstuff Posted January 24, 2015 Report Share Posted January 24, 2015 Maybe some Tristanoite took 'Trane to see Lennie? An encounter like that wouldn't necessarily be documented... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted January 24, 2015 Report Share Posted January 24, 2015 Not exactly John Coltrane, but: I think it was in the 70´s that Tristano, who didn´t perform anymore made a statement that if he ever would play again in public, he would like to have Elvin Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted January 24, 2015 Report Share Posted January 24, 2015 Given Tristano's choices of drummers and previous things that I've read, that seems like an extraordinary statement. But who knows - perhaps people change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted January 24, 2015 Report Share Posted January 24, 2015 Not exactly John Coltrane, but: I think it was in the 70´s that Tristano, who didn´t perform anymore made a statement that if he ever would play again in public, he would like to have Elvin Jones Maybe he heard the Konitz Verve 'Motion' session, or heard about ot from Konitz himself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Maybe from Konitz, really. Anyway, Lennie Tristano sure had the occasion to work with good drummers too. He worked with Max Roach, then there are the broadcasts "Bands for Bonds" from 1947. Two sessions, one with Max Roach, the other with Buddy Rich. Well those were pick up all star groups......, like the Metronome All Stars..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dfrankjazz Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Lennie was a very critical cat. Looking back, he had a positive function in his criticisms to keep musical standards high, but I think that he was overly critical alot of the time. He told me that "Bill Evans has some nice chords, but they are all worked out", for example. I gave him Now he Sings Now He Sobs, and all he told me that "Chick's comping chords were too staccato in the LH". He definately despised much of the FREE JAZZ thing in the 60's, telling us it was "all emotion, no feeling". I can dig where he was coming from because everybody was buying into alot of the bullshit free jazz stuff that was going on, but still I think he was overcritical in general.. Dave Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 He definately despised much of the FREE JAZZ thing in the 60's, telling us it was "all emotion, no feeling". I can dig where he was coming from because everybody was buying into alot of the bullshit free jazz stuff that was going on, but still I think he was overcritical in general.. Dave Frank That´s interesting, because I once read a statement done by Miles. When he was asked what he thinks about the "New Thing" "Avantgarde" (Free Jazz), he aswered something like that he doesn´t know what´s so revolutionary about it. He said "Lennie Tristano and Lee Konitz" already did that stuff in the late 40´s, but then it did make sense.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnblitweiler Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Lennie's "Descent into the Maelstrom" is real far out, man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 (edited) personally I think ultimately Lenny' musical opinions were cancelled out by his basic meanness and king-sized ego. Not to mention all that Chinese food.... Edited January 27, 2015 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 He definately despised much of the FREE JAZZ thing in the 60's, telling us it was "all emotion, no feeling". I can dig where he was coming from because everybody was buying into alot of the bullshit free jazz stuff that was going on, but still I think he was overcritical in general.. Dave Frank That´s interesting, because I once read a statement done by Miles. When he was asked what he thinks about the "New Thing" "Avantgarde" (Free Jazz), he aswered something like that he doesn´t know what´s so revolutionary about it. He said "Lennie Tristano and Lee Konitz" already did that stuff in the late 40´s, but then it did make sense.... Seems like both Miles and Lennie were inclined to make lots of absurd/stupid comments on this subject of free jazz, though hard to tell how much of this was just trolling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Or how much each of them felt threatened by something new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Miles' comment = reductio ad absudum of the notion of spontaneous collective improvisation. It was a good sound bite. And like all good sound bites, true as far as it went, and also like all good sound bites, not particularly far is how far it went. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Miles' comment = reductio ad absudum of the notion of spontaneous collective improvisation. It was a good sound bite. And like all good sound bites, true as far as it went, and also like all good sound bites, not particularly far is how far it went. I think you give Miles too much slack. He was never above stating something and making a huge pivot as his mind was changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I think it speaks to how superficial the whole notion of "free improvisation" was to him at that time. He had a simple, reducioed al absurdiumned perception of it and made a simple, and quotable, observation, well yeah, cats just getting up and blowing whatever comes into their head, Lennie & Lee already done that, next. No doubt, he pivoted once he got his head around the reality, rather than the perception. And I give him both credit and slack for being open to doing/able to actually do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) That always pissed me off about him. It is ok to find faults in Miles. Edited January 28, 2015 by Chuck Nessa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quasimado Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I'm rereading Bill Coss' Dec. 6, 1962 DownBeat article "Lennie Tristano Speaks Out" and noticed this Tristano quote: "(Critics) should listen in person in many different circumstances. John Coltrane, for example, sounded different with two basses and Elvin Jones than he did with me." Are there any known instances of Coltrane and Tristano performing together? I checked Eunmi Shim's Tristano biography and couldn't find a reference to any such encounter. Or am I misreading Tristano's quote? I heard long ago from a Tristano insider that this was a misquote and they had not played together. People like Connie Crothers and Carol Tristano would know the truth about this quote. Q Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 It is ok to find faults in Miles. He beat women, dissed Hank Mobley in a most un-gracious manner, and let his coke habit kill his music there for a while. Other than that, whatever faults I'm sure he had, I'm like, does he still owe me money? Does he want to sleep in my house? Does he sign my check? The answer to all of the above being, "no, he's dead", I'm willing to be objective about all that real-time stuff. Dude was vain, mean, nasty, and had a damn good sense of how to play the money/power game. C'est la motherfucker, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Sigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I never knew the man, and only know a few people who did, so any faults I might find are from the outside. Hell, most of my thoughts about anything are from the outside. "Who cares what you think?", well, exactly. I will find fault with the Blackhawk records, though, no matter what anybody says. That shit is lazy. Top-shelf lazy, but still lazy. There's a real fault with Miles, imo. The motherfucker got lazy with that band, and then he got lazy with disciplining his drug habit in the 70s. I can't judge, but I can find those faults, for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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