So, What Are You Listening To NOW?

[Peter Friedman]

[Rabshakeh]

Various – One Night With Blue Note Preserved (Blue Note, 1985) 

Currently streaming Volume 1 of this, which has most of the ex-Second Quintet crowd. 

As with VSOP, I am a bit struck by how much weaker, to my ears, many of these artists sound when playing acoustic bop than they did in their 60s prime. That's in contrast to the majority of jazz musicians, who I don't think tend to diminish with age.

I would put it down to the effect of adopting a crowd pleasing stadium stance during the Fusion years, but I think Joe Henderson is also quite weak on these general records, whereas Bobby Hutcherson, who experimented with fusion as much as anyone, is still really good.

[JSngry]

3 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

As with VSOP, I am a bit struck by how much weaker, to my ears, many of these artists sound when playing acoustic bop than they did in their 60s prime. That's in contrast to the majority of jazz musicians, who I don't think tend to diminish with age.

I would put it down to the effect of adopting a crowd pleasing stadium stance during the Fusion years, but I think Joe Henderson is also quite weak on these general records, whereas Bobby Hutcherson, who experimented with fusion as much as anyone, is still really good.

All these people had moved on musically. It would be the difference between being in the moment then, and then going back now and trying to be in that moment all over again. They just weren't there any more. "Crowd pleasing stadium stance", such as it was, only came about because their newer music became popular to that extent. It certainly wasn't that they got popular because they had dumbed down their music (especially Wayne....). Herbie and tony, and even Freddie, had all moved on in different directions. Freddie would do some of the best playing of his life after he did (although you largely have to go to live dates to be convinced of that). Tony wanted to be a Rock star, really wanted that. And when he came back with his later bands, not a lot of what he played/wrote for those bands would have sounded right in the 1960s.

They all moved on. The majority of jazz musicians don't.

I would also disagree that Bobby Hutcherson "experimented with fusion as much as anyone"..."crossover" sure, lost of different settings (some pretty "commercial"). But actual fusion...about as close as he came to actual "fusion" was the Un Poco Loco album on Columbia. Or am I forgetting something? But Bobby Hutcherson never moved on, just because he was out in front from the beginning. In fact, there are people who would contend that he moved back just a bit after his NY period.

The record is called "Preserved" which probably was meant to mean that they caught it on a record. But it also means, embalmed, mummified, something like that. so....

[Rabshakeh]

8 minutes ago, JSngry said:

The record is called "Preserved" which probably was meant to mean that they caught it on a record. But it also means, embalmed, mummified, something like that. so....

Agreed, I just think that it's weird how much it hit these musicians specifically. Plenty of other musicians went acoustic again after playing electric or fusion and were really fine. Or maybe even went somewhere newish with it. Herbie Hancock and Tony Williams in particular just never seem to really readjust back. 

11 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I would also disagree that Bobby Hutcherson "experimented with fusion as much as anyone"..."crossover" sure, lost of different settings (some pretty "commercial"). But actual fusion...about as close as he came to actual "fusion" was the Un Poco Loco album on Columbia. Or am I forgetting something? But Bobby Hutcherson never moved on, just because he was out in front from the beginning. In fact, there are people who would contend that he moved back just a bit after his NY period.

That record's fusion, and a lot of his 70s stuff really isn't the same as he'd been playing in the 60s: much more about groove. But Hutcherson is good at any stage of his career. A focus on groove or a fusion jaunt or two doesn't seem to hurt him when he wanted to return to bop.

13 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Freddie would do some of the best playing of his life after he did (although you largely have to go to live dates to be convinced of that). 

What era are you talking? I actually think his post CTI stuff is pretty good. I struggle with him too on his return to acoustic.

[Rabshakeh]

On the second volume now, with McCoy Tyner. So much stronger.

[JSngry]

80s and 90s Freddie, live dates in particular. The guy was just all-out all-in. Incredible trumpet playing that coincidentally is very strong from a content standpoint.

As for "going back" from electric to acoustic, it's not as simple as that. It's about what the music itself was, the compositional elements and the approaches to playing it. That 60s Blue note sounds...they had done that, and in the cases of Herbie and Wayne specifically had pretty much done all with it that they could (or would) do. Asking them to do a retro thing like VSOP was weird, like asking Joyce to write Ulysses all over again, just change the names, I mean - why? How? 

I can tell you with absolute certainty, there are players who really "can't go home again", nor do I think they should be expected to. There are alos other players who never really leave home, even if they add on some wings to the old place. And that's cool too.

My favorite VSOP record is that last one, where they actually did play more "fusion"-y material and approach. Five Stars, i think it's called.

As for Hutch....different setting, but none of the really "fusion". "Crossover" in nature/intent, yes. but "fusion"???? Not as I understand it.

[Peter Friedman]

[Rabshakeh]

9 minutes ago, JSngry said:

As for "going back" from electric to acoustic, it's not as simple as that. It's about what the music itself was, the compositional elements and the approaches to playing it. That 60s Blue note sounds...they had done that, and in the cases of Herbie and Wayne specifically had pretty much done all with it that they could (or would) do. Asking them to do a retro thing like VSOP was weird, like asking Joyce to write Ulysses all over again, just change the names, I mean - why? How? 

Do you think it was all just at the behest of the record company then? Surely Hancock had been having enough hits that if he had not wanted to play acoustic stuff he would not have done it. I never met the guy, but I assumed that playing VSOP and those creaky acoustic records he's chunked out since the late 1970s was something he wanted to do. 

Shorter is a different story, because, after a similarly creaky start he did at least put a band together and take stuff in a direction.

Anyway, Volume 2 was cool. Nice to hear Tyner and McLean like that.

[JSngry]

The original "VSOP" concept, remember, was part of a three-part concert at Newport-NY(?). One of those Three Faces Of Herbie Hancock type things, the 60s, then the Mwandishi band, then the Headhunter/beyond. Who set THAT up, I don't recall. George Wein do doubt had a hand at some level, but business factors would have entailed others at a more granular level.

Herbie, I think, was is one of those "perpetually open" guys who will just do shit to be doing it. He's also got a good market sensibility. I'm sure that they all thought that it would be nice to take a break from their current pursuits and "go back", just to see what would happen. That it made money certainly incentivized the to keep going, but if you listen to the VSOP records in sequence, the keep getting further and further away from the retro concept. The last one is a VSOP record in name only, lol. 

Wayne...not sure where the "creaky" stuff is. He actually had a touring electric band in the Phantom Navigator/Etc era, and they were really good. some of it's on YouTube, but all the market noise during the time was directed elsewhere, so not a lot of "buzz" about it. and then he went back to doing studio works for a while before coming back out again with his acoustic quartet that stuck around for a while.

[jazzbo]

Bob Dylan "Trouble No More" Bootleg Series Vol. 13, disc 5

I like this "Christian" era of Bob's more as time goes by. . . but I'm going to skip "Man Gave Names to all the Animals"--I always do. What a dumb song.

Edited August 18, 2022 by jazzbo

[HutchFan]

Speaking of Wayne . . .

[Peter Friedman]

[mikeweil]

This morning for coffee:

in the late afternoon, for supper with my wife:

[Peter Friedman]

[John Tapscott]

On 8/17/2022 at 3:52 PM, soulpope said:

Now:

14 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

John Fedchock New York Big Band – John Fedchock New York Big Band (Reservoir, 1995)

[dougcrates]

[BillF]

7 hours ago, John Tapscott said:

 

 

 

5 hours ago, dougcrates said:

Edited August 19, 2022 by BillF

[BillF]

Now playing:

[EKE BBB]

[aparxa]

Frank Rosolino - I Play Trombone (AFF)

[soulpope]

4 hours ago, BillF said:

Now playing:

Good one ....

[BillF]

[jazzbo]

Started this yesterday and finishing off listening to it this morning--had to shut the system down a bit early as my wife asked for one of her. favorite dinners and I had to run to the store to get some ingredients.

I love this one! "Santana (III)" -- I'm listening to the 2 channel SACD layer of the most recent Japanese SACD that included the Quad mix layer. Superb packaging. I think I may prefer the slightly warmer Mobile Fidelity Lab SACD but it's close. . . both sound fantastic.

I'm going to follow it up with the first disc from this box set that I finally got in the mail from Europe. . . .

Pyramids "AOMAWA: THE 1970s RECORDINGS" 4 cd box set

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5f3b39d78104223137fd52e5/1658941464602-ETYIAG31Y1PZS1GI764C/pyramids.jpg

https://idrisackamoor.bandcamp.com/album/aomawa-the-1970s-recordings

[Peter Friedman]

[JSngry]

1970 offbeat gem. This is what Spotify is good for - finding something totally unfamiliar by searching for a name I was curious about, and then finding, ok, Tony Coe, and then listening...this is a weird record. Weird and fascinating. Farnon only sometimes sticks to MOR practices, and Coe doesn't even try to. He snarls and bites and whispers, not at all unlike Paul Gonsalves playing on a stoned Percy Faith record or something. MOR, but only barely.

The album is apparently also known as:

Anybody else know this one?