Does Oscar Peterson get a bad rap?

[Rabshakeh]

55 minutes ago, rdavenport said:

the jazz tastes of classical music fans. I recently bought quite a big record collection, 60% classical and 40% jazz. The jazz portion was entirely typical of these collections (I've bought dozens over the years).

There were over 20 OP albums, about 16 George Shearings, about 12 Dave Brubecks, about 10 Andre Previns, 15 Nat King Coles, 15 Frank Sinatras, 10 each of Duke Ellington, Basie and MJQ. You almost always find a token Bird or Miles album in these collections. This one was slightly unusual in that it had 2 Monk albums (a solo bootleg-looking thing and the Tokyo concerts) a single Bill Evans, and the real kicker - four Groove Holmes LPs.

I love this stuff. It provides real insight. 

[Big Beat Steve]

Funny that this thread comes up again. I got to thinking about this discussion the other day when I read my way through a stack of 50s jazz magazines (both US and european). One thing that reminded me of this discussion was that back then you every now and then were liable to find a deep analysis of why Art Tatum in the author's view was overrated jazzwise. In a nutshell, pianistics beyond reproach, but jazzwise all flash, fireworks, virtuosity to the detriment of the "real jazz depth" (I am paraphrasing very loosely). Seems like assessments like this were not that rare in his lifetime - though he seems to have been canonized forevermore once he had died. And lest anyone come up with a predictable reply to the tune of "those who said so didn't know shit then" - it just remains so that appreciation is in the ear of the behearer - and in everyone's approach to the subject matter. (And one man's meat, of course ...) And yes - I do enjoy my Art Tatum records immensely and pull them out more often than my (somewhat less numerous) OP records - of which also appreciate a certain number, e.g. those of his "Exclusively For My Friends" series for MPS that I own.  Not to mention many of his rhythm section contributions in horn-led sessions.

Yet I wonder if some of the jazz scribes active through the decades approached artists like these two from similar angles and found fault with certain aspects of their works for what to them seemed to be similair reasons.

[Big Beat Steve]

2 hours ago, rdavenport said:

It's interesting what Big Beat Steve says upthread about the jazz tastes of classical music fans. I recently bought quite a big record collection, 60% classical and 40% jazz. The jazz portion was entirely typical of these collections (I've bought dozens over the years).

There were over 20 OP albums, about 16 George Shearings, about 12 Dave Brubecks, about 10 Andre Previns, 15 Nat King Coles, 15 Frank Sinatras, 10 each of Duke Ellington, Basie and MJQ. ...

Similar estate finds might be made even over here. Though usually with much rather quantitites of each individual artist.
BUT - no AHMAD JAMAL in a collection where the jazz section was this heavy on pianists?? Amazing ...

[Rabshakeh]

30 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Funny that this thread comes up again. I got to thinking about this discussion the other day when I read my way through a stack of 50s jazz magazines (both US and european). One thing that reminded me of this discussion was that back then you every now and then were liable to find a deep analysis of why Art Tatum in the author's view was overrated jazzwise. In a nutshell, pianistics beyond reproach, but jazzwise all flash, fireworks, virtuosity to the detriment of the "real jazz depth" (I am paraphrasing very loosely). Seems like assessments like this were not that rare in his lifetime - though he seems to have been canonized forevermore once he had died. And lest anyone come up with a predictable reply to the tune of "those who said so didn't know shit then" - it just remains so that appreciation is in the ear of the behearer - and in everyone's approach to the subject matter. (And one man's meat, of course ...) And yes - I do enjoy my Art Tatum records immensely and pull them out more often than my (somewhat less numerous) OP records - of which also appreciate a certain number, e.g. those of his "Exclusively For My Friends" series for MPS that I own.  Not to mention many of his rhythm section contributions in horn-led sessions.

Yet I wonder if some of the jazz scribes active through the decades approached artists like these two from similar angles and found fault with certain aspects of their works for what to them seemed to be similair reasons.

Do you not think that there strong similarities between Tatum and Peterson? 

Perhaps the issue is that the comparison is clear to anyone but also but not very informative or useful, like grouping Miles Davis and Chet Baker.

[Big Beat Steve]

12 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Do you not think that there strong similarities between Tatum and Peterson? 

Perhaps the issue is that the comparison is clear to anyone but also but not very informative or useful, like grouping Miles Davis and Chet Baker.

Yes I do think that there are similarities in their "pianistic" chops and practices.
I do not really have a horse in any race of what criticism (or should I say "reservations" or misgivings?) is objectively justified in either case. Being no pianist, I would not be able to judge such reservations to any deeper extent anyway.
But even as an onlooker and "jazz listener" I cannot help feeling that - at the risk of speaking heretical words now 😁 - there are some jazz circles where the accepted present-day wisdom is "Thou shalt not criticize Tatum" but also "Thou shalt not like Peterson".

Edited March 3 by Big Beat Steve

[rdavenport]

2 hours ago, Brad said:

The Holmes albums may be unsurprising.  Some of his later efforts seem to get away from his soul jazz beginnings. 

Yes, fair point. They were all from his late 60s / early 70s output. 

2 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

I love this stuff. It provides real insight. 

👍

[Rabshakeh]

38 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

at the risk of speaking heretical words now 😁 - there are some jazz circles where the accepted present-day wisdom is "Thou shalt not criticize Tatum" but also "Thou shalt not like Peterson".

Give me that old time religion.

[rdavenport]

49 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Similar estate finds might be made even over here. Though usually with much rather quantitites of each individual artist.
BUT - no AHMAD JAMAL in a collection where the jazz section was this heavy on pianists?? Amazing ...

Haha - no Ahmad Jamal in this one, though like you say, I have seen them in other collections I've bought in the past. They tend to be 70s / 80s Ahmad Jamal however.

Thinking back, there were many Ella albums, and a lot of Paul Desmond and Gerry Mulligan. These artists (Stan Getz is another) are also typical of what I find in such collections. Swinging, quiet, polite, cultured, pretty-sounding. 

[HutchFan]

My 2 cents: Take the received opinion, whatever it may be, with a grain of salt. Listen for yourself. As much as possible, be sympathetic to the artists' intentions. 

Decide using your own ears. If it sounds good (to you), it is good.

The fact that there are such wildly disparate opinions on OP among informed, long-time jazz listeners should tell us something about the nature of musical experience. It is manifold.

 

Edited March 3 by HutchFan

[Teasing the Korean]

4 hours ago, rdavenport said:

It's interesting what Big Beat Steve says upthread about the jazz tastes of classical music fans. I recently bought quite a big record collection, 60% classical and 40% jazz. The jazz portion was entirely typical of these collections (I've bought dozens over the years).

There were over 20 OP albums, about 16 George Shearings, about 12 Dave Brubecks, about 10 Andre Previns, 15 Nat King Coles, 15 Frank Sinatras, 10 each of Duke Ellington, Basie and MJQ. You almost always find a token Bird or Miles album in these collections. This one was slightly unusual in that it had 2 Monk albums (a solo bootleg-looking thing and the Tokyo concerts) a single Bill Evans, and the real kicker - four Groove Holmes LPs.

I do not disagree with what you and Big Beat Steve have said about these kinds of collections - I also have seen these jazz artists represented in these collections. But I do question the qualifying or stratifying of "jazz fans" or "jazz fandom," something that I have admittedly done myself.  I would certainly consider someone with a 60/40 split of classical to jazz to be a classical fan and a jazz fan. These listeners represented a substantial part of the jazz audience at that time.  I would venture to guess that in 2024, there are more listeners like them and fewer jazz purists, if the latter even exist anymore.

[Guy Berger]

2 hours ago, HutchFan said:

My 2 cents: Take the received opinion, whatever it may be, with a grain of salt. Listen for yourself. As much as possible, be sympathetic to the artists' intentions. 

Decide using your own ears. If it sounds good (to you), it is good.

The fact that there are such wildly disparate opinions on OP among informed, long-time jazz listeners should tell us something about the nature of musical experience. It is manifold.

 

Good take.

[Pim]

3 hours ago, HutchFan said:

My 2 cents: Take the received opinion, whatever it may be, with a grain of salt. Listen for yourself. As much as possible, be sympathetic to the artists' intentions. 

Decide using your own ears. If it sounds good (to you), it is good.

The fact that there are such wildly disparate opinions on OP among informed, long-time jazz listeners should tell us something about the nature of musical experience. It is manifold.

 

Those are some valuable two cents. My thoughts exactly. This thread is a years long Oscar Peterson diss thread with the same accusations over and over again.

I have a love/hate relationship with OP. I love a lot of the Verve and MPS trio stuff. The records with Ray Brown, Sam Jones, Bobby Durham and Ed Thigpen. I do not like his presence on the works of Getz, Ben Webster and Coleman Hawkins nor do I like the Pablo records. I could very well understand why people don’t like his style. As a personality, musician and for his legacy he deserves the respect a true jazz musician deserves. 

Edited March 3 by Pim

[Teasing the Korean]

In other news, I apparently misfiled my copy of Soul Espagnole on the Limelight label...

[JSngry]

Two things that two different musicians have told me about OP:

• As you get older, you'll appreciate how clean he plays. An eighth note is always an eighth note, a sixteenth note is always a sixteenth not, there's no slurring of the time with him.
• OP is preferable to Bud Powell because Bud Powell was sloppy too much of the time. But Bill Evans is better than both of them.

I could not disagree more strongly with both of those, but it also goes to show what some people value.

 

[Teasing the Korean]

35 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Two things that two different musicians have told me about OP...

Did either of them happen to know where I misfiled Soul Espagnole?

 

[Rabshakeh]

38 minutes ago, JSngry said:

• OP is preferable to Bud Powell because Bud Powell was sloppy too much of the time. But Bill Evans is better than both of them.

Wa?

[JSngry]

That's what the man said. And he played a lot of gigs. 

[Peter Friedman]

Ok, it is time for still one more "bash" Oscar Peterson thread.

When I first became interested in jazz in the mid 1950's Oscar Peterson was among the first jazz musicians I heard. For a while he was my favorite jazz pianist. Then over the next few years I began to hear and appreciate a large number of other jazz piano players.

I went through a brief period when I became a bit less positive about O.P.'s playing. And then over a few more years I regained a new appreciation for Peterson. While I would not rank him in my list of most favorite jazz pianists, I do very much enjoy many of his recordings.

The strong negative reactions to Oscar Peterson's playing from some here strikes me as "narrowminded".

I very much love the playing of  a huge number of jazz piano players. Perhaps I am the odd man out, but can very much enjoy to listen to Art Tatum, Bud Powell, Barry Harris, Hank Jones, Tommy Flanagan, John Hicks, Bobby Timmons, Cedar Walton, Ray Bryant, Gene Harris, Oscar Peterson, Hampton Hawes,  Phineas Newborn, Jr., Jimmy Rowles, Carl Perkins, Lou Levy and at least a hundred or maybe two hundred more.

There are  a few jazz pianists that I don't care for very much, but don't hate them. 

[JSngry]

3 minutes ago, Peter Friedman said:

Ok, it is time for still one more "bash" Oscar Peterson thread.

No, this is still the same one. 

[Rabshakeh]

23 minutes ago, Peter Friedman said:

Ok, it is time for still one more "bash" Oscar Peterson thread.

I don't think that the last years' worth of posts have been about bashing Peterson. Mostly it seems to be views aligned with your own.

[hopkins]

I'll share my modest opinion, being someone with much less experience and knowledge than most of you here.

As a "casual" jazz fan, I listened to Oscar Peterson a lot. Dave Brubeck as well - basically artists whose albums are always included in those "top 10" lists....

I then developed a much deeper appreciation for jazz, and broadened my very limited "scope". I don't listen to Oscar Peterson any longer, other than through his collaborations. 

What makes some artists so much more popular than others is a bit of a mystery to me, but I don't lose sleep over it. There are other artists in those "top ten" lists that I don't "get" (dare I say Miles Davis? Keith Jarrett? Late John Coltrane?). Perhaps some day I will. Until then, there is so much to discover, and so little time...

 

Edited March 3 by hopkins

[Rabshakeh]

46 minutes ago, hopkins said:

As a "casual" jazz fan, I listened to Oscar Peterson a lot. Dave Brubeck as well - basically artists whose albums are always included in those "top 10" lists....

Sorry for asking, but when was this? I think this experience was true of many, but I wonder whether it still is.

For me, as a young jazz listener (late 1990s), Oscar Peterson was really not an obvious figure with whom to start. I only gradually discovered him as I went deeper, by following through the various Granz catalogues. 

Edited March 3 by Rabshakeh

[Stompin at the Savoy]

I'm 71 now and have been listening to jazz since my late teens.  Originally I was most fascinated with Parker, Gillespie and bebop.  Later I got into Miles, Coltrane, Bill Evans and the Blue Note label. Still later I got into big band and swing. I have a lot of piano music in my collection.  The consensus above seems to be that only newbies to jazz like Oscar Peterson and that they outgrow him. In contrast  I got interested in Peterson fairly late in my jazz listening career.  I like him.  It's often toe-tappin stuff and his technique and speed are pretty amazing.  Even at his most breakneck speed, he is still able to work in all sorts of ideas and variations. Every once in a while he plays something that makes me think holy crow, that changes everything! No, I don't want to listen to him every hour of every day but I do listen and still buy his records.

If someone does not care for Peterson I have no problem with that.  We all have our own tastes.  I do find pronouncements like he doesn't swing or is fake jazz or only the ignorant like him to be problematic and a sign of snobbery, dogmatism and immaturity.

Edited March 3 by Stompin at the Savoy

[gmonahan]

Someone once wrote (maybe it was somewhere in this thread) that every time OP came up, we should respond with "42."

He's sort of like fast food for me. Not necessarily that good for me, but pleasantly filling.

 

 

[JSngry]

I bought his Christmas record and liked it.