First Monk recording of Round Midnight?

[medjuck]

httpIs://storyvillerecords.bandcamp.com/album/timmes-treasures

Am  I the only one who didn't know about this record?  (Of course I've now ordered it.) 

[jazzbo]

I'm sure you're not the only one, but I have had it since it's released--not sure where I heard about its release, possibly on the Steve Hoffman forum thread I started.

[JSngry]

7 minutes ago, medjuck said:

(Of course I've now ordered it.) 

Same.

[Ken Dryden]

I’ve had it since it was released thoughI had forgotten what was on it.

[JSngry]

Beaucoup Don Byas!

[kh1958]

Allen Lowe

1.0 out of 5 stars stay away: this label uses terrible mastering and Noise Reduction techniques

Reviewed in the United States on April 16, 2019

Verified Purchase

botched sound. Music is great, but they have destroyed it.

 

According to Mr. Lowe on amazon...

[Big Beat Steve]

I bought my CD copy several years ago (as a welcome adition to the "swing-era reissues that do not duplicate what I already have" corner although in this case it is first issues, of course) and liked it but haven't listened to it in quite a while - so thanks for the reminder of its existence. Time to pull it out again.

I don't think I am qualified enough to comment on Allen Lowe's assessment of the mastering. I trust his judgment but OTOH who knows what fidelity problems the source recordings may have had.

[Gheorghe]

Most be great ! The only early Monk I heard was on some Minton tapes, maybe under the name of Charlie Christian, which has a lot of Monk solos on it. And the early BN-version of Round Midnite where they still didn´t play the intro and the coda, which I think was written by Diz but Monk kept it for the rest of his live. 

I think once I heard also a very early version of "Epistrophy" from the Minton days, I don´t know if it was on a record, there is so many stuff I just heard once and remembered it. 

The Danish Jazz Baron sure was very important and it´s great there is some of his tapes. 

There is an anecdote told by Rosenkrantz that once in the early fifties he wanted to aproach Bud Powell and not knowing how it start conversation he asked Bud what time it is, and Bud didn´t answer. Many many years later, Bud saw Mr. Rosenkrantz and said to him "it´s  (told the time) ´o clock right now, Mr. Baron !" . 

[mikeweil]

3 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

I think once I heard also a very early version of "Epistrophy" from the Minton days, I don´t know if it was on a record, there is so many stuff I just heard once and remembered it. 

If it exists, this new Monk Discography should list it! https://jazzdiscography.com/Artists/thelonious-monk/thelonious-monk-discography.php

[Gheorghe]

Thanks, I saw the Charlie Christian material I have and the trumpet battle at Minton with Joe Guy and Lips, and so on. 

Other labels, like "Moon" I think were short lived bootlegs......, 

Yes, here I see short excerps of "Epistrophy" just as a closer, it is possible that I heard such at some source or place.....

By the way: I love to play "Epistrophy"...... we did it with the great Allan Praskin as . 

[JSngry]

 

[Big Beat Steve]

1 hour ago, Gheorghe said:

Other labels, like "Moon" I think were short lived bootlegs......,

Moon reissued a couple of the earlier Xanadu and Onyx LPs 1-to-1 on CD, even imitating the cover artwork. I had one or two but don't have them anymore (found the corresponding LPs so stuck with my vinyls).

[JSngry]

Have there been any educated guesses as to further updates to the personnel on this? The cuts with Monk are not yet listed on that online discography, but more than that, the altoist on "Let's Go" is an oddly incompetent yet compelling amalgam of Pete Brown and Bird. In 1944!

And the early 1945 unknown group on the Frank Froeba/Stuff Smith group "I Got Rhythm" starts playing "Dizzy Atmosphere", including the bridge, on their way out. This might have been before it was even recorded, so who are these people already knowing it? How possible is that? 

[medjuck]

On 10/11/2022 at 5:17 PM, JSngry said:

Have there been any educated guesses as to further updates to the personnel on this? The cuts with Monk are not yet listed on that online discography, but more than that, the altoist on "Let's Go" is an oddly incompetent yet compelling amalgam of Pete Brown and Bird. In 1944!

And the early 1945 unknown group on the Frank Froeba/Stuff Smith group "I Got Rhythm" starts playing "Dizzy Atmosphere", including the bridge, on their way out. This might have been before it was even recorded, so who are these people already knowing it? How possible is that? 

Lord lists  Don  Byas and Lucky Thompson both on tenor on "Let's Go"   (I got Rhythm). Losin lists the first Bird and Dizzy recording of  Dizzy Atmosphere  as early 1945. (February 28)   And who knows if it was new then. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by medjuck

[Niko]

The altoist for Let's Go has been listed as possibly Kirtland Bradford, e.g. here

https://attictoys.com/lucky-thompson-discography-1943-1950/

(but that's not where that info comes from). Bradford was lead altoist with Jimmie Lunceford around that time and much later a teacher of Arthur Blythe. Typical Bradford features w Lunceford were not heavy on improvisation, The Jimmies was discussed in another thread earlier, another one is Meditation from a Jubilee show

 

One session where Bradford plays a few jazzier solos is with the Joe Thomas Sextet on Melodisc, (Frontline of Bradford, Thomas and Russell Green on trumpet plus the Lunceford rhythm section)

I am no expert but my hunch would be that it could be him on Let's Go, trying to make sense of stuff he heard the last few nights in New York or so... 

[EKE BBB]

2 hours ago, Niko said:

The altoist for Let's Go has been listed as possibly Kirtland Bradford, e.g. here

https://attictoys.com/lucky-thompson-discography-1943-1950/

(...)

I am no expert but my hunch would be that it could be him on Let's Go, trying to make sense of stuff he heard the last few nights in New York or so... 

Bradford is also listed in Jan Evensmo's solography of Lucky Thompson.

There was a long discussion on this subject at FB a few weeks ago, with many qualified participants (among them, Loren Schoenberg, Nick Rossi, Benny Green, Dan Weinstein or Scott Hamilton).

Apart from Bradford, also Rudy Williams and Herbie Fields were suggested.

[JSngry]

I thought it might be that Horsecollar guy at Mintons that Dizzy talked about who couldn't really play but went all in when he did.

Not sure if that guy was Horsecollar Williams, who certainly could play. 

[Jim Duckworth]

14 hours ago, JSngry said:

Have there been any educated guesses as to further updates to the personnel on this? The cuts with Monk are not yet listed on that online discography, but more than that, the altoist on "Let's Go" is an oddly incompetent yet compelling amalgam of Pete Brown and Bird. In 1944!

And the early 1945 unknown group on the Frank Froeba/Stuff Smith group "I Got Rhythm" starts playing "Dizzy Atmosphere", including the bridge, on their way out. This might have been before it was even recorded, so who are these people already knowing it? How possible is that? 

I've long been fascinated by Sidney De Paris's solo near the end of this record-particularly when he plays Bebop (the Dizzy tune). 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Jim Duckworth

[Niko]

let me bump this thread in connection with the Byas Mosaic having come out... I am still wondering about the mystery altoist who is identified as "Kirk" Bradford in the Mosaic liner notes (it should be "Kirt" since his real name is "Kirtland", almost certainly named after US senator Kirtland I Perky). So far, there were only two tracks available, Rose Room on the Caete LP and "Let's Go" here... and based on those two tracks, my tentative guess (not written above and not well-substantiated) was that the altoists on the two tracks may well be two different people (with Bradford a more likely candidate on Rose Room than on Let's Go). Now in the Mosaic there are three sessions and quite a few more tracks... I am wondering what others think... do you hear a single altoist in those three sessions? 

[romualdo]

On 12/15/2023 at 11:49 PM, Niko said:

let me bump this thread in connection with the Byas Mosaic having come out... I am still wondering about the mystery altoist who is identified as "Kirk" Bradford in the Mosaic liner notes (it should be "Kirt" since his real name is "Kirtland", almost certainly named after US senator Kirtland I Perky). So far, there were only two tracks available, Rose Room on the Caete LP and "Let's Go" here... and based on those two tracks, my tentative guess (not written above and not well-substantiated) was that the altoists on the two tracks may well be two different people (with Bradford a more likely candidate on Rose Room than on Let's Go). Now in the Mosaic there are three sessions and quite a few more tracks... I am wondering what others think... do you hear a single altoist in those three sessions? 

There are almost 55 minutes (6 tracks) of Monk over two discs in the Byas Mosaic - Kirk (Kirt) plays on 5 of the 6 tracks. The final track (Sweet Georgia Brown - 9mins+)has Kirt as the only saxophonist with Monk as a trio with bass.

There are also two further Autumn 44 tracks with Monk replaced by Teddy Brannon, both with Kirt, Don & Lucky (Body & Soul, Cherokee).

His alto is quite audible & prominent

On 9/28/2022 at 7:32 PM, mikeweil said:

If it exists, this new Monk Discography should list it! https://jazzdiscography.com/Artists/thelonious-monk/thelonious-monk-discography.php

that'll need to be updated since the release of the Byas Mosaic

[Gheorghe]

I´m not really a conoisseur if it´s about recorded documents, I think the first version of Round Midnight I had heard on record besides the Blue Note recording in the 40´s was recently a discovered document of the first Dizzy Gillespie big band at Spotlite, that means before Diz added conga players, most of all Chano Pozo whom I love. And it is Monk playin on piano on it, before he was replaced by John Lewis. 

But what is more important for me than when it was recorded is the tune itself. If I might be forced to hear only one tune, this one would be it. If I knew it will be the last time I play myself, Round Midnight would be it. 
I can say it all thru Round Midnight.  And if there is something true about what religions tell about souls that exist after death, or if I get into believing that before I die, I ´d tell my folks to spin "Round Midnight" when my body get´s into the crematory, or if they get together after doin what they think with my ashes.....

[Niko]

Well said... You can hear that first version of Round Midnight under the link in the first post btw ...

Romualdo, thanks! Maybe I didn't say it clearly enough but my question is really whether others think this is all the same altoist on those tracks....

[mikeweil]

3 hours ago, romualdo said:

... that'll need to be updated since the release of the Byas Mosaic

I will e-mail him about this, in case he did'nt notice.

[medjuck]

Now that we have the Mosaic Don Byas with more Timme material does anyone know what else exists and is in the Danish University collection? Are there more Monk tracks and could the Byas/Monk Mosaic material be from the same session as Midnight? The latter is listed as November 11, 1944. and the material on the Byas collection as from "Autumn 1944".