Miles Davis Live at the Plugged Nickel

[jazzbo]

1 hour ago, bertrand said:

It was definitely discussed at the time, possibly here. I did not make it up, especially the part about the CDr replacement.

I NEVER have heard or read that mentioned, nor did a search some up with anything.

Edited 10 hours ago by jazzbo

[danasgoodstuff]

FWIW, the bad disc/CD-R replacement thing sounds vaguely familiar.  But I don't recall the details at all.  And again FWIW. I find the Plugged Nickel the most compelling of all Miles live recordings although I own and enjoy lots of others too.

[bertrand]

1 hour ago, danasgoodstuff said:

FWIW, the bad disc/CD-R replacement thing sounds vaguely familiar.  But I don't recall the details at all.  And again FWIW. I find the Plugged Nickel the most compelling of all Miles live recordings although I own and enjoy lots of others too.

When did the previous release come out? If it was before 2003, the discussion would have been on the Blue Note board.

I know I am not dreaming. I was waiting for a second, corrected pressing but the set went OOP real fast.

Speaking of that, whatever happened with the Kenny Dorham Brooklyn set? Did Resonance ever admit there was a problem?

Edited 7 hours ago by bertrand

[jazzbo]

The set came out in 1995. I have a really good memory and I don't believe this idea of a defective disc was discussed on the Blue Note Board or anywhere else I was present at the time. 

[Daniel A]

In any case, I believe that many of us have the set, and at least I haven't found a defect in any of the discs.

FWIW, Discogs is listing SID code variations, indicating that there was a repress of the 1995 set. An interesting sidenote is that mould SID codes were introduced in 1994~1996. This means that discs that lack such SID codes were produced no later than 1996-ish, unless there has been a one-off mistake (or they are counterfeit). But looking at these SID code variants, it appears that all discs within the set have one variation without SID code (presumably the initial pressing) *except* discs 4 and 5. This suggests that these two discs were pressed in a separate run (while it might still have been as early as 1995).

[JSngry]

3 hours ago, bertrand said:

 I was waiting for a second, corrected pressing but the set went OOP real fast.

It also took forever to come out. I placed a preorder as soon as it was announced, and, IIRC it took about a year (or more?) to actually be released.

For such great, seminal (albeit in slow motion) music, Columbia has been stingy with it.

[Stompin at the Savoy]

I played some of this once for a friend who listens to pop music.  His reaction was that he didn't much like jazz that seemed like "noodling".  I wonder if there was a problem selling a large, relatively expensive set like this with music like this.  I guess it actually may be difficult to appreciate these live sessions without having experienced quite a bit of jazz and understanding the context?  The music is kind of 'advanced'?

Edited 4 hours ago by Stompin at the Savoy

[JSngry]

[Stompin at the Savoy]

To elaborate on that, the band is playing mostly standards like Stella by Starlight, Green Dolphin Street, etc, but they are deconstructing these tunes, trying them with different tempos and rhythms, playing with the structure, ignoring the melody, etc.  But if one does not have even a passing familiarity with Stella by Starlight, how is one to interpret this performance? Very differently from someone aware of the tradition.

[JSngry]

I know very well what they are doing.

It's not the band's fault if pop audiences can't hear past the nose on their face. That's the result of decades of audience narcissism and industry cynicism playing into it.

Besides, even if you don't know "the tradition", if all one hears is "noodling" and not something...different, then one is not entitled to have their opinion taken seriously.

This i do believe.

[Stompin at the Savoy]

10 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I know very well what they are doing.

It's not the band's fault if pop audiences can't hear past the nose on their face. That's the result of decades of audience narcissism and industry cynicism playing into it.

Besides, even if you don't know "the tradition", if all one hears is "noodling" and not something...different, then one is not entitled to have their opinion taken seriously.

This i do believe.

Well Jim I disagree completely.  If one has no structure upon which to hang the sounds coming at you, if you are unable to anticipate anything or see any regularity or pattern, it becomes noodling.  It can't be that for me because I have a background from listening to this music.  But it absolutely can for someone who doesn't recognize what tune it is, when the piece ends and repeats, what the musicians are trying to do etc.  They have no way to organize the data they are receiving.  I recommend you listen to the set for a few minutes and place yourself in the position of a pop music listener who has never heard the tune. 

[bertrand]

5 hours ago, jazzbo said:

The set came out in 1995. I have a really good memory and I don't believe this idea of a defective disc was discussed on the Blue Note Board or anywhere else I was present at the time. 

Why are you always picking fights with me? I'm not making this up.

I'm done with this Board. Bye everyone.

 

[JSngry]

1 minute ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

 I recommend you listen to the set for a few minutes and place yourself in the position of a pop music listener who has never heard the tune. 

Now why would I do that? I decided decades ago tonir be that type of listener.

I don't know if this is just an "American" problem, but music education requires critical thinking, and critical thinking has been disappearing across the board for decades now, and "pop music" has led the way.

You know, you can enable programmed ignorance for so long before...never mind 

And btw - this has nothing to with individual taste  Quite the opposite. It's about the refusal to develop any.

Pop is not the enemy, the pop audience too often is.

And btw, by your definition the perception of "noodling" is based on user ignorance. 

Q E.D.

 

Speaking deconstructing Stella, that was underway before Plugged Nickel:

 

[Stompin at the Savoy]

8 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Now why would I do that? I decided decades ago tonir be that type of listener.

I don't know if this is just an "American" problem, but music education requires critical thinking, and critical thinking has been disappearing across the board for decades now, and "pop music" has led the way.

You know, you can enable programmed ignorance for so long before...never mind 

And btw - this has nothing to with individual taste  Quite the opposite. It's about the refusal to develop any.

Pop is not the enemy, the pop audience too often is.

And btw, by your definition the perception of "noodling" is based on user ignorance. 

Q E.D.

 

Yes, the perception was based on ignorance.  Congratulations, you understood what I was trying to say!  How about you?  If you listen to northern Indian classical music are you able to pick up all the nuances?  Do you understand the different sections and different rhythmic breakdowns of the piece?  Are you able to appreciate it as well as somebody who is into that? (Or substitute any other music form which you don't happen to be familiar with).  I'm pretty sure there is some music somewhere which will sound like nothing to you and fail to do anything for you and you will think to yourself it all sounds like much of a muchness - ie noodling.  Not because you are unthinking or the music is bad, but because you have no background.  Peking Opera.  Music in Japanese drama.

Edited 1 hour ago by Stompin at the Savoy

[JSngry]

3 minutes ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

Yes, the perception was based on ignorance.  Congratulations, you understood what I was trying to say!  How about you?  If you listen to northern Indian classical music are you able to pick up all the nuances?  Do you understand the different sections and different rhythmic breakdowns of the piece?  Are you able to appreciate it as well as somebody who is into that? (Or substitute any other music form which you don't happen to be familiar with).  I'm pretty sure there is some music somewhere which will sound like nothing to you and fail to do anything for you and you will think to yourself it all sounds like much of a muchness - ie noodling.  Not because you are unthinking or the music is bad, but because you have no background.  Peking Opera.  Music in Japanese drama.

Of course not. I understand the basics, but that's it 

But I would never call it "noodling" or some such. Never. Because that's just ignuntass bullshit reflective of an ignuntass worldview. Period.

A little bit of that goes a long way, and there's been more than a little bit of that for way too long.

You can't expect anybody to like something, but the other side of that coin is that ignorance should not expect to go unchecked.

[Stompin at the Savoy]

Jim, that is a really dumbass attitude.  Sorry but true.  Your argument boils down to if somebody doesn't understand this music the way I do, they are stupid, insensitive clods.  Brilliant Jim, and dumb.

[Dub Modal]

I saw some live Chinese opera some years ago and that was wild. I had no idea what was going on. If I ever see it again I hope it's with someone or some kind of resource that explains it. Jarring, for sure. And not something I've revisited since, but something that I could see had depth.

Kind of in that neighborhood, this Plugged Nickel set has always been a challenge for me to listen to. I don't seek it out either. I'm on the fence for this CD set. 

[JSngry]

7 minutes ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

Jim, that is a really dumbass attitude.  Sorry but true.  Your argument boils down to if somebody doesn't understand this music the way I do, they are stupid, insensitive clods.  Brilliant Jim, and dumb.

Oh wow. THAT'S dumb!

What it boils down to is that everybody is entitled to their opinion, but not all opinions are equal. And if somebody has an opinion rooted in ignorance and not at least a little bit of awareness, then I feel no obligation to respect it or (depending on how hungry I am) quietly tolerate it. Silence = death, eventually.

[Dub Modal]

So reading the blurb on CDJapan:

Regarding the reissue:.
*The original analog master from the MOSAIC RECORDS 10-LP BOX release in 1995 was used (due to the whereabouts of the master from the US CD production, which is almost equivalent in content, being unknown).
*The mastering was done using the above analog master digitized to 192KHz/24bit and converted to DSD, realizing the world's first SACD hybridization.
*The CD layer also uses the latest remastered sound sources.
*Mastering engineers: Koji Suzuki and Kaoru Ishibashi (Sony Music Studio)
*Includes 10 tracks that are 1 to 2 minutes longer or 9 minutes longer than the first domestic release (the first complete domestic release).
*New commentary by Takao Ogawa; 16-page booklet in English, with Japanese translations of each disc's booklet.
*Stereo recording

So is this a new mastering then, one that uses the Mosaic master? Reads like that to me but correct me if I'm wrong there. 

[JSngry]

12 minutes ago, Dub Modal said:

Kind of in that neighborhood thisis Plugged Nickel set has always been a challenge for me to listen to. I don't seek it out either. I'm on the fence for this CD set. 

To be honest, the OG two LPs are the highlights, enough for all but the hardcore ((for whatever reason) listener. But those two albums are not to be denied!

And notice I said "denied", not loved or understood or any of that other emo crap.