David Ayers

As for the liner notes, perhaps in due course someone who has the technology could scan these in and make them available on the board? That can't be me as I don't have the technology, and in any case we are talking about boxes that don't exist yet (like Dixon). But that could be a way for those who own the LPs to offer a 'service' to those who buy the boxes and enhance the experience a little - maybe? Like I say, I imagine you need a large scanner or other equipment to scan these in. Any comment?

Couple of recs from me, from OUP. One is Simon Morrison's book on Prokofiev, called The People's Artist: Prokofiev's Soviet Years - paper cover edition due December if price is an issue. Yeah more detail on some topics than you might prefer, but it's an interesting and important narrative. Second up is Thomas Middleton: The Collected Works, 2000 pages now out in paper cover at a bargain price. This is for those who love their Renaissance drama and appreciate a fine editorial job. All lovers of great editorial work will enjoy this just for its own sake. Both books are money well spent, for quite different reasons.

EMI - half owners of Mosaic - already do this of course. If we imagine that EMI or Sony pay royalties to artists where they are not contractually obliged to do so we are dreaming. So a pre-1960 RVG or KoB sale in Europe is worth no more to the artist or their estate than an Andorran sale. Good joke of course!

Why, though I had it, did I sell it?

It's really great. Not live, but studio material, and they work very well together. I'll be publishing a Braxton interview soon that hopefully will help clarify some of his ideas, or justify why they might not seem so clear on first, second, or third pass. Good to know on both counts. I really think AB's work is not hard to understand, and his prose is quite penetrable, but it's clumsy and a conventional vocabulary exists to express most, maybe all, of what he has to say. Of course the *reasons* he arrived at the discourse he did are those of social situation.

I wish you all the best with your recovery! Not least so that, uh, well you know, you've got a very useful website to run....

Just while I am on the topic, while I own or have at least heard the great majority of AB's recordings, I passed over the Clean Feed set with Joe Morris, mainly because I never warmed to Morris's playing and had doubts about the project of recording and publishing what I take to be four concerts of let's-see-how-we-get-on improv. But I have an itch to hear it and wonder if anyone can comment on it before I order it up? PS Jim, I'm not knocking AB - at all - just asking questions about the optic he gets placed in. Without spelling it out I was querying the concept of genius (C18th construct taken up by Romantics) and saying we should talk more about his approaches, which are not as hard to discern as the vocabulary he himself uses suggests. Knowing what he aspires to - recently, Wagner and Shostakovich - is a reminder of how and why he differs from such figures, and a reminder to us to think about what music amounts to as a public activity. Next he'll start mentioning Boulez, who like Wagner and Shostakovich harnessed the resources he needed to get things done and project his agenda before a large and live public (and beyond the bracketted world of record collectors).

... which seems to have worked! :excited: will take me two years I guess to digest all that's coming... crazy, but I'm always happy to know I have this or that and don't need to worry when it runs out and I'm short of dinero... (which is what I'll be after this ordering excess...) I admire your zest! I've got entire, new and sealed box sets here, some by artists I don't even care for, some bought even recently and set aside ("But it was such a good price!") but in the main I've cured myself of this simply because eventually the dead weight of the backlog reminds me I can't assimilate it all and I should slow down. So now I dream of the beauty of being up-to-date, where every new purchase is consumed quickly and greedily... I still haven't finished listening to all the music on Spotify yet... that could take some time... As insane as it may sound, I've still got a couple of new and unplayed LPs from before CD took off... just a couple...

Well, I just read right through this thread and came away with a few ideas, more than I can really get down. First, I'm reminded that no-one has yet developed a lucid way of talking about AB's work. I include in that AB himself as well as those writers who have written books (exception for PNW's book which I haven't read). AB's vocabulary is bizarrely inflated, and too many writers simply replicate it. Really the description of the various musical processes he uses need not be that complicated, and I'd add that sensible aesthetic appraisal of the work is almost completely absent in anything I've ever read about Braxton. Second, the whole genius thing is wide of the mark, more like the only person to have made any sustained attempt to develop new forms for improvisation after the 1960s. The 'genius' image, as Radano shows, was more than anything the product of the Arista campaign, with AB hamming it up with his pipe and being photographed studying Stockhausen scores - which reminds me that those touting his 'genius' and making the comparison with Stockhausen which AB himself constantly invites mainly don't know Stockhausen and would be equally hard-pressed to explain his genius. Really the opera was the gauge of this. An effective composer would have gained a commission: AB I think just spent his Guggenheim on it. That removes all the checks and balances and amounts to vanity publishing; and no-one is interested in it, a huge sign of weakness. Third, of course the work is interesting and the main measure of that is that you can see that whatever AB has tried *had* to be done. So regardless of the results, things had to be tried. What that means is that some of the works and performances might be failures. Fourth, some of the emphasis in the discussion has tended to be on certain recordings, and we have tended to say the oeuvre is hard to grasp as there is so much. I'd say there are recordings or aspects of AB's work we haven't mentioned enough here, and also that it is quite easy to get an effective overview of his work by sampling each aspect of his output while considering period. So the format of work breaks down easily: solo, duet, small group, large group, orchestra. The periods are early, Chicago influenced, developing to middle, more composition based, adding in a strand from the mid-70s on standards, finally the GTM phase. Within this, the early work is a little harsh and more historical than really vital, as can be said of most of the early Chicago work. So really one of these early disks such as Three Compositions is enough to get going on that. As far as solo playing goes, AB does get better at that, and maybe a mid period one such as the 12 Weslayan is the place to start. For quartet playing, something by the classic quartet is needed - maybe Coventry, or Willisau or Santa Cruz depending on availability. For larger ensemble, I'd say Koln or the famous RCA/Bluebird disk (now locked in the Mosaic). The orchestral pieces are few and have few supporters so can be skipped, I'd say - the Mosaic box is sadly burdened by a rare but unappealing 2CD epic. Standards work can be sampled on the Charlie Parker disk. GTM is a bit boring, so the best thing is to pick up a cheap sample and not a long-winded box set. For anyone who likes downloads, most of this is best and cheaply done via the Leo Records site, making different selections but sampling most aspects of AB's work. Those who prefer CD will get many aspects cheaply on the Black Saint box when it appears. Collectors really *should* be picking up the Hats as and when they become available. The Mosaic box would present better value without the two orchestra disks and you'll find other stuff there you don't care for, so not a priority probably, though there's stuff there you will want to hear eventually. Finally a word for George Lewis who AB used to say was his best collaborator - I think because he just plays - both duet concerts with Lewis are a treat and you should try to hear at least something with Lewis - maybe Basel. Um, that was it. Oh, best ever Braxton appearance? Conference of the Birds. And why didn't I mention Circle? They were terrible.

According to the Peter Stubley website, Brotzmann says he *is* on the recording. Now I'm confused.It actually is hard to tell whether it is him, since it kinda could be in certain passages, but... I think I may have to go and lie down.

Interesting. I've been curious about it but somehow never bought the CD when it was more "around." Now I'm less intrigued by a piano/marimba/recitation jam. Voices figure only in the last minute of the quartet piece. They are wordless cries and just a low-down part of the mix, so that in itself need not put you off. It's not a jam though, and as ever with CT groups the question is to try to work out what he has asked the musicians to do. The commentary on those links say the performance was tightly organised, and as often there are clear transitions from one section to another, even though, as ever, the overall musical effect is to create trance-like and sometimes dense textures. What's intriguing is the pairing with marimba which, while it has parallels in some classic 'modernist' piano/vibes pairings, is in another category as CT's piano might be thought not to leave much room for another percussive-melodic instrument. All that said, if you think it would leave you cold it probably would... and yeah we need to be clear that Brotzmann is not on it, though the several minutes of Frank Wright we get are quite worthwhile.

Agh agh agh! I'm suffering from collectionism and list fever now. Scanning down that list I see the one David Murray title I never heard, the Tim Berne's I sold, the sheer quantity of titles by certain artists I never realised were out there. You can see lots of possible sets there and lots of things to hoover up from online retailers when the opportunity occurs. One caution is that some of the artists who might have a restricted following might not in the end do very well in the marketplace. An Andrew Cyrille box, for example, is an attractive idea but might never arrive. It is a good thing for this label to be boxing-up, as it were, and doing its own history. I also notice that the mp3 price policy at amazon is to have a fixed price per track which means that albums with fewer, longer tracks are currently very good value. That is why Olu Iwa is such a bargain (for now) and I'd say to anybody to spend a couple of dollars and have their 75 minutes of fun with it. I see that BS/SN were taken over in 2008 so it is the new owners trying to do more with the catalogue. I think these sets and the attractively-priced downloads will do a lot to repromote the label - I'm all for it.

I'd say buy the BS box as it's out and it's cheap. Then if you get into it buy the Mosaic. Or if you just want one buy Just The Facts and Pass The Bucket on About Time. I agree that Arista had the better Air recordings, but sadly you will have to spend a lot of $$$ to get them, some of it on the Columbias which never won much favor, at least, not with me. I think price is a factor even if the Arista material may be preferable.

Maybe it was or maybe he didn't play on this section of the concert. In fact people might be surprised by this record [Olu Iwa] (currently $1.78 on amazon.com) which contains two tracks, the second 27 minutes of quartet with piano and marimba, the first 48 minutes said to be adding two saxes and trombone. But really both tracks are mainly about the piano-marimba group and the horns are intensively involved for a ten minute passage. I just played it and here is a trombone solo followed by a tenor solo which I believe is Wright. However for less than a dollar you can decide that for yourself! FWIW, Rick Lopez' William Parker page has this: http://www.bb10k.com/PARKER.disc.html#86.04.11 http://www.bb10k.com/PARKER.disc.html#86.04.12

Sadly, I think I am right in saying that Brotzmann's solo was cut from the released recording. Apparently Brotzmann was pretty displeased. Probably Brotzmann was too avant-garde. CT is quoted as saying 'where's the melody?' and 'now play Cherokee.'

Add to that, I merged the lists and alphabetised them, which makes it easier to see what's there and where the interesting sets might come from in this last gasp, end of an epoch, reissue series. Still only goes to mid-2008 though but you get the idea. Black Saint Soul Note Discog to mid 2008.doc

I've been trawling the internet and found an obscure discussion forum where people have nothing better to do than compile lists of old records - so anyone wanting a nearly current BS/SN text list should look here. What a bunch of losers.

Yes. Oh wait, no. That must have been humor.

Very cool about Taylor! I have none of his SoulNotes/BlackSaints so far! Hemphill and Lacy would also be most welcome, not sure about Braxton, will have to look up what he did on that laben, I only have one or two of them, I think (Eugene comes to mind). The Braxtons include four quartets, one with George Lewis, one with Crispell, one with pianist David Rosenboom, and a fourth with Mal Waldron playing Monk. Apart from Eugene, there is another large ensemble recording with better personnel, and there is also one of those operas, I think, but I haven't heard it. The disk with Roach has Max's name first so is unlikely to be in there.

I had long thought CDs would become basically worthless and that is what has happened. Yesterday in London 100s of new RVGs were on sale for £3 (a little over $4). It's starting to get that you just can't give it away. Collectables such as Mosaics and Japanese issues aside, pre-owned prices have to be fairly token. Younger people don't collect CDs - that's something their dads did - and people who did collect them now suddenly don't want them all and are trying to dump large quantities. Those same people also buy far fewer. The problem seems to be not the price point (you'll always sell some things) but the dead stock you'll be left with after the few choice items go. We might guess that 10 or more years from now, when most CDs will be OOP and everything harder to find,that prices will go up, but if you compare to LPs, where there is a market for some good quality original pressings, it seems probable that CDs (which are never 'original' and have unattractive packaging compared to records) will never make much of a comeback. Brian Eno in a recent interview compared selling recorded music - he didn't just say CDs - to selling whale oil, meaning that the market for the product has ceased to exist. When I saw all those BN CDs for $4 yesterday there were some I didn't have: but I didn't even buy one.

I was in Ray's Jazz today and noted that they had stock with the Impetus Distribution label on, so there is one possible route.

Yeah that occurred to me. But also Jason Moran uses a good deal of ECM phrasing and harmonies. Since I doubt that many musicians sit around copying licks off ECM records I wondered if Eicher had compiled a riff-book that he hands out at the sessions. That said (and I only listened to three tracks) I like Potter's super-trained playing. I know that a lot of folks prefer older-school self-trained styles, but I must say that turning to Potter after listening to a few sides of 70s/80s LPs in recent days I found myself strongly preferring Potter to some notionally biggger names. I did wonder how it was that drummer could write so many tunes that lacked a basic pulse, but then I remembered that if Motian is known for liberating the drums from time-keeping then he can hardly expect anybody else to keep it that snappy. As far as the recording goes, I find it wonderful. I'm not sure that Motian is under-recorded - I just think he's keeping it down. Hey, if I ever get past the first three tracks I'll post an even longer and wittier review. Ho ho!

Well, I learned today that this is a rolling program. Anthony Braxton, Cecil Taylor and Dave Douglas are among those slated for release.

You can browse by artist - click on the "artist" tab. Got it thanks. Very comprehensive. I'd still like a simple text list. I like lists.

Celibidache was an interesting conductor, but somehow his interpretations don't grab me; to my ears he doesn't seem to be able to keep up the tension as it were, I lose interest after a while. He's got his own way and I am not a fan - but these 1959 recordings with the RAI Orchestra are in a world of their own.