Gheorghe

Understood. From my perspective in the US, the Swingles sound - which was pretty ubiquitous in the 1960s - was like the musical equivalent of how Europe was visually portrayed in the "foreign" films that I loved watching as a kid, even though I didn't understand anything about them. There would always be these montage scenes that juxtaposed, for example, rococo fountains and ancient Roman ruins against images of Mini Coopers and stylish young Europeans. The mixing of jazz and classical in the Swingles for me reinforced that juxtaposition of a long, rich, cultural tradition against unabashed, bold modernism and modernity. So much of the music recorded between, say, the late 1950s to about the mid-70s to me comes across as this crazy and irreverent tapestry of styles. It was like everything was up for grabs and the artists could make anything fit. And while some of this may have been driven by trendiness or a need to simply stand out, the best stuff always reflected optimism and possibility (for me, at least). HA! Not only a favorite of mine, but the version of "Tin Tin Deo" on that album is my very favorite rendition of that tune! Yeah, it´s really a nice little album, I still remember it was quite hard to find in my youth. Anyway, Tin Tin Deo is one of my favourite tunes, it´s didn´t happen often that I heard a weak version of that tune. And "One Bass Hit" on that album is also great, with Pierre Michelot. It´s just a great combination, the Swingle Singers with Diz, Bud, Klook (and of course the great Pierre Michelot, who anyway was Bud´s bassist in Paris) , really a rare encounter.

Thank you all for that really interesting discussion. TTK sure is right when he says my point of view is an over-simplification, but somehow it was my impression then..... As for the old Jazz Podium, yes, brings memories back, and I had the same experiences with MJQ . In my "wild" years it just wasn´t my kind of stuff, I was focussed on Mingus for example..... but now there are days I can enjoy it. Same with bossa.... Big Steave Beat: your statement about Lionel Hampton - Concerts. You got the point. I remember school-time, we had an old teacher who said in an angry manner "what kind of crap you are listening, youngsters "hey baba ru bap" (sic!) , I think he referred to Hampton. It was amusing, because this was in the earyl 70´s and I don´t think there were so many teenies listening to Hamp......

Hello BillF: I´m not so sure. the bossa nova craze was not so bad, you can get some nice music out of it, but I think those folks who normally listened to concert music were not conscious of bossa nova. I think, bossa nova should have some nice percussion on it, and at least I never saw Bossa Nova ( even easy goin´ like Getz Gilberto and so on) in the shelves of the non-"jazz" houses. Oscar Peterson and Errol Garner (though they sure are good musicians), they had that "something" that made non-jazz middle class western people like it more than Diz, Miles or Trane. Anyway I seldom saw "horn players" in non-jazz family living rooms... , maybe Louis Armstrong, but piano "jazz" appealed more to the classical trained ears...... Anyway, if you looked at the album covers, they had title to things those people "knew": ....... Garner plays Gershwin,........ Peterson plays Westside Story (if something like that exists, I dunno.....) ,

Yeah, I think that swingin´Bach-stuff was just a way to get classically trained people to jazz. I must admit I never could get with that. Third stream ist just not my cup of tea, but whoever loves it. Well, I think it was just the times: Typical middle-class families with the traditional musical tastes Mozart, Beethofen, Bach and so on just had one or two so called "Jazz Records" in the shelves, usually that Bach-Swingle Singers, or some Jaques Loussier, or in case they could get away for a minute from the connections to classical music, they usually had one Oscar Peterson-album or Errol Garner album......

got that DVD too, but I was disappointed when they showed the Ornette Coleman trio only traveling, but very little music. the Roland Kirk stuff is nice, but more ok without John Cage.....

same with me, we might be about the same generation. Remember that radio "Schlager für Fortgeschrittene", though I didn´t listen to it, I listened to Jazz-Shop with the legendary host Herwig Wurzer, from where I got inspirations what records to buy.....

About the unamplified bass from the 40´s . Look, they got another tehnique to play it, and they got their strings about maybe 1,5 - 2 cm up from the fingerboard. Hard work plucking the strings that way, but the only chance to cut through the other instruments. Those guys where the unsung heros of bop. Listen to Tommy Potter, to Curly Russel, to Al McKibbon and how they manage to cut through a whole Dizzy Gillespie Big Band. And Mingus. He always complained that the young bass players have no chops to master their instruments. Now ....bass players got their strings low, just a few millimeters up from the fingerboard. That´s why they play all that fast little shit , but they would die withouth the pick ups, the amps, they were lost.....

I´m glad that I´m not the only guy who thought the Swingle Singers had something to do with the word "swing". Yeah that kind of vocal groups was a big seller during the 60s and 70s. Every household had at least one record with the Swingle Singers, or with Manhatten Transfer later..... I still have the old record Diz made with them, where they sing all the boppish big band arrangements. And Bud on piano on some of the tracks.... I like that record, the way they do the original arrangements and I think one of them scattin the original line of a James Moody solo. I read on the album cover that it also got lyrics in french, some kind of abstract fairy-tales I think. Well my french is only a few words, though I love that language, but I couldnt understand the lyrics from the record.....

Yeah I think I read this interview. It´s from 2013. But nothing new about the book she want´s to publish about Dexter.

sounds very interesting. I have the japanese sony of VSOP "Tempest at Colloseum" , was something like a "cult record" when I was young, just a "must". So it might be interesting to have a record only with the trio. Anyway, with Tony Williams on drums nothing can be wrong.....

Well, sure I love Shadow Wilson with Monk, maybe a diferent topic ? Anyway, Shadow Wilson was a helluva drummer. Must have been a delight for anyone to have him play

think I saw him once during the early 80s with some austrian free jazz pioneers, like Fritz Novotny, who did very much for the austrian avantgare scene. If I remember rite, Burton dug Monk very much and when it was about time to do an encore, he choose "Crepuscule with Nelly". Mr. Novotny later told me it was quite hard a hard time for him to play that tune, I heard a tape, it sounded good.....

That´s it. So I think he came to Vienna only sporadically, but it was always a gas to hear him with greats like Fritz Pauer, Bert Thompson and Fritz Ozmec. Remember one time Erich Kleinschuster sat in for a really fast "Move". Carl Drewo might have been in his late 50´s maybe 60 but looked smart and much younger, more like an aging sportsman than a jazz musician. I was quite surprised that he died soon after that, he looked so healthy.....

to me, he was one of the "unsung" heros of the bass, like Tommy Potter and Curly Russel before. Hard work to make it swing every night for many hours. And those bass players still had learned to play without amps and pickups, they got to cut through the horns, the drummers, that´s why they sound different...... Ore was a great bassist and he played the bass fiddle the way I like it most, just swingin hard.....

I remember him well. Saw him live and loved what he did. Great musician. He came frequently to Jazzland to play gigs, but I think at that time he had moved to St. Gilgen/Wolfgangsee.....

About John Ore: I´m quite sure he was exactly what Monk wanted. Monk didn´t like too much solo bass on gigs. And that kind of anticlimax, Monk doing only some spare comping and the bass just walkin on, that´s part of Monks philosophy. Are not many bass players left who understand that. Tried it for many times: I would have liked to get that anticlimax feeling. Just after a few chorusses one more, just with a few notes or chords , but if you try that out, the bassists immediatly "jump" on a solo. They don´t have the patience just to keep it where it is and walk on. I tried to tell it and they say yeah I can dig that, that´s where we go, and on stage, they will forget about it..... The only time I heard John Ore doing much solo was with Bud at Birdland: During that time, after he played his chorusses, Bud just stopped playing, he wouldn´t even do comping for the bass solos. So John Ore had to fill up the space, that´s why he plays so many and so long solos on Bud´s sets at Birdland and on the record.....

During the 70´s 80´s he came quite often to play at Jazzland in Vienna. Solid swing

I noticed that Sun Ra did perform quite often in Italy. Did he love the country, the people ? And it seems that he had a lot of fans down there, it seems they dug him. I was trying to find a concert similar to what I heard in spring 1980 and got some strange CD from a Rome concert from the same time march 1980. But no liner notes..... Bad sound quality, but great music, with the exception of the first tune, which is a quite stupid thing with flutes only, the worst starter I ever heard, but then things really improve.....

They seem to have good tastes, each of those albums is great. And Ornette´s "The Shape of..." , actually was the first Ornette Coleman Album I bought.

Loved his playing. My first hearing encounter was the Art Tatum Group Masterpieces album..., especially Buddy´s solo on "Deep Night".

I also had Freddie Webster on my mind a few days ago, when I was revisiting some Joe Guy stuff from Minton´s. I also was aware of the "unknown" trumpet player but I don´t know who it is. Freddie Webster had a beautiful broad sound with vibrato. I heard him only on a few records, his intro on Dameron´s If you could see me now on the great Sarah Vaughan album ist famous. Joe Guy, Freddie Webster and Little Benny Harris, I think they were the unsung heroes of the early bebop days.....

I think it´s more hard for younger players to meet the older cats . During the time when Sonny was young, there sure were joints to jam. Maybe now there are "clinics" and stuff like that, but I doubt it is the same it was, when Sonny came on the scene.

I don´t know what´s wrong in it, if he doesn´t recognize players from a younger generations, players who probably somehow more or less where influenced by HIM! Musicians seldom buy and collect records the way jazz lovers do it. and it would have been easier to recognize players from his generation like Trane or Hank Mobley, or some of his mentors like Hawk, Lester, maybe Don Byas.

Thand you all ! Keep swingin´ Gheorghe

@jazztrain: thank you so much for those very interesting informations about the later years of Joe Guy