Daniel A

BTW, what day is it today?

I doubt it will ever come back at BN:s site, but here it is, starting with part 1: Author Topic: Jazz Chronological Classics Bev Stapleton Member Member # 27 posted January 22, 2000 03:06 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've recently become aware of this astonishing label. For years I've seen their discs around but assumed they were cheapo-air shots etc. Recommendations on this board made me go out and buy a few and I have been hugely impressed. I like the decision not to include alternate takes (these seem to be readily available on other labels for the enthusiast who enjoys listening at that close a level). The strictly chronological approach can produce some odd arrangements - Stardust Part 2 before Stardust Part 1 on the Mary Lou Williams 1944 disc for example. Soundwise, they've proved much better than I'd anticipated given some adverse references in the Penguin guide. Not up to the standard of some other labels but perfectly listenable (depending on the source discs of course). I also picked up a catalogue the other day which is a gold mine in itself - full track list for discs, personel, indications of vocal tracks etc. If you are trying to follow the work of a particular artist its a marvellous way of getting a full track listing. I'm sure there are many of you who know this series well. Any recommendations, warnings etc? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3103 | From: Worksop, Nottinghamshire, UK | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged philip Member Member # 405 posted January 22, 2000 05:46 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bev, like you I have been wary of this label because of the comments in the Penguin guide over transfer quality, etc. The Jimmie Lunceford 1930-34 disc was a disappointment. The best known track, "White Heat", seems to have been transferred from an old electronically enhanced LP, but then I am a stickler for decent sound. The rest of that disc seems average, lacking the sparkle one expects from John RT Davies. It is probably true to say that my perfectionism has reduced my access to earlier Jazz classics... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1657 | From: Derbyshire, UK | Registered: Sep 1999 | IP: Logged Chris Albertson Member Member # 551 posted January 22, 2000 06:14 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Apropos sound quality and collectors. In the early Seventies, when I produced the complete Bessie Smith LP reissue for Columbia, engineer Larry Hiller and I spent 2 1/2 years working (5 nights a week) on the sound. It paid off, for (using a new method devised after much experimentation by Larry) we were able to virtually eliminate the surface noise. This, we thought, ought to pleaee the collectors. We were wrong. A group of them, known as the Blues Mafia, wrote me a letter bemoaning the absence of surface noise! I guess you can't please everybody. Larry was very happy to receive his Grammy, however. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2989 | From: NYC - New, temporarily downgraded, USA | Registered: Dec 1999 | IP: Logged Bev Stapleton Member Member # 27 posted January 22, 2000 09:53 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can believe it, Chris! Your anecdote made me chuckle. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3103 | From: Worksop, Nottinghamshire, UK | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Stefan Wood Member Member # 188 posted January 22, 2000 06:19 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bev, regarding the Classics, label, I agree that they are a good reissue company. I too just started to buy their label, starting with Don Byas and Howard McGhee, and am now working on Coleman Hawkins (thanks to the bboard group's suggestions). As much as I like reissues, there have been times where I hate the repetition of hearing two, three, even four versions of the same song in a row. So far, the Classics cds that I have bought are good sounding and have plently of tracks to fill up a cd. I wish they could have more extensive liner notes, but that's a minor issue. The best is that they have an extensive catalog of pre 1950 jazz artists -- enough to browse and explore. I'm looking at Charlie Shavers next..... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1255 | From: Chevy Chase, Maryland USA | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Bev Stapleton Member Member # 27 posted January 23, 2000 03:38 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- They have the advantage that they are so far down the line of cataloguing pre-1950. A few weeks back I bought the Frog McKinney Cotton Pickers discs. These are superb transfers (like the JSP Armstrongs), better than Classics. However, its much harder to work a coherent collection together. Not being an audiophile I find the Classics discs fine. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3103 | From: Worksop, Nottinghamshire, UK | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Jason Drake Member Member # 602 posted January 24, 2000 01:28 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have just started to get into this label's output. Like other's I thought it was just a cheapo deal (partly due to the covers, which it has to be said aren't that hot) but am now finding it a great source of pre-50's jazz. I'm wondering if, as the 50 year copyright expiration time line passes through the years 1950, 1951 etc, they might even start to re-issue some of the classic BN stuff ? Once the copyright has expired do they need BN's approval to do this ? The last time I was in Ray's Jazz Shop, in London, they had a complete wall display dedicated to the label and it seemed pretty well stocked. I think that Lon would have been in seventh heaven! I was wondering how much this label costs in the US. The US online sites seem to charge high prices for them. If someone gives me an example I'll compare it to some of the euro sites, which might prove cheaper even with shipping costs. Bev, if you want a recommendation, I'm listening to #648 Horace Henderson 1940, which is v. good. He seems to have been overshadowed by his brother, Fletcher, which, on the evidence of this disc, is unfair. It swings very nicely. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 280 | From: London, England | Registered: Jan 2000 | IP: Logged Lon Armstrong Member Member # 137 posted January 24, 2000 05:18 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think the covers are quite nice. Like 78 rpm labels, with a photo. These cost retail in the stores about 15.99 US. You can usually get them for about 12.99 to 13.99. Classics ALREADY have been reissuing Blue Note sides; check out the Ike Quebec disc, among others. I find that the latest releases sound quite nice, compared to the earlier ones, but none are quite as good as the Davies transfers. Those McKinneys on Frog are da bomb. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10027 | From: Austin, TX USA | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Swinging Swede Member Member # 197 posted January 24, 2000 05:33 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jason, Classics has already issued a lot of BN stuff, mostly from the pre-bop era, like Sidney Bechet, Edmond Hall, James P. Johnson etc., but also the McGhee/Navarro Boptet session from 1948 on "Howard McGhee 1948". So you're right, there's nothing stopping them as the years roll on. If there is an unreissued session from the 50's you want to have, you just have to count the years that are left until Classics (or some other label) can reissue it. Of course they have no access to the BN vaults, so they can only take the best source available. And yes, the Horace Henderson set is nice. Many have considered him to be more advanced both as pianist and as arranger, but he never gained his brother's fame. I've also read that he detested being known only for being Fletcher's brother. Don't forget the great session made in 1933 under his name, where he fronted his brother's orchestra. It's out on "Coleman Hawkins 1929-1934". -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1484 | From: Sweden | Registered: Aug 99 | IP: Logged John L Member Member # 123 posted January 24, 2000 08:27 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chronological Classics is doing a great service issuing these all of these sides, as the labels themselves do not show much interest. Chris A: That's a great story about surface noise. Maybe it is the producers of the original records that feel so strongly. After all, they are getting so many composer royalties on blues compositions for which the surface noise was their only contribution! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1200 | From: Capital of world madness DC | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Jason Drake Member Member # 602 posted January 24, 2000 09:55 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This label can be got cheaply (for EU residents) from www.boxman.com. They range from 7 usd to 11 usd, with shipping about 3-4 usd. The site is terribly laid out and it can take a while for them to ship, but at 7 usd per disc it seems worthwhile. For some reason, non-EU people are forced to use a different 'browser' and the prices seem to be higher. But it's so hard to use that I have to say I've run out of patience trying to do a proper price comparison. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 280 | From: London, England | Registered: Jan 2000 | IP: Logged Bev Stapleton Member Member # 27 posted January 24, 2000 10:41 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've used Boxman for a couple of Classics discs - they're a bit slow but deliver at good prices. I agree their layout is hopeless but given the prices worth persevering. I think I'll use them for the Spirituals to Swing discs in the near future. The Classics discs covering Blue Note I look forward to are the ones that will cover the 'Amazing Bud Powell' sessions. I bought disc one very ealy in my collecting days and have found the alternate takes infuriating - 3 of Un Poco Loco! Now I appreciate that the real Bud fan and the jazz historian want the lot but I could have done with a one disc distillation. I've never bought the two Monk records for this reason although I have a Blue Note compilation that takes individual songs with no alternates. I came across the Classics wall display in Rays a couple of weeks back, Jason, and walked out £70 poorer. It could have been much worse! As I'm just starting to investigate Fletcher Henderson Horace may be a bit further off for me. I did pick up the first Teddy Wilson disc which has a mass of Billie Holiday vocals that are not on the Columbia vinyl I bought in the early 80s including two wonders in 'What a Little Moonlight Can Do' and 'Miss Brown to You.' I think I might pursue the Wilson and Holiday issues as a way of converting my Holidays to CD. Any views on the Classics Nat Cole discs? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3103 | From: Worksop, Nottinghamshire, UK | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Lon Armstrong Member Member # 137 posted January 24, 2000 11:06 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The first few Cole discs in the series reissue material that I have found on cd nowhere else. . .After that I have lost interest in them, as I have all the material elsewhere (I am one of those with the Cole Mosaic.) But this is an excellent series of recordings, the Cole ones, and worth following. . . . I am one of those Powell nuts, but I noticed yesterday that Indigo has a great collection of Powell called "Early Powell" that has sides with Cootie Williams (not to be missed) and the earliest under his own name. All the Indigoes I have heard have had good sound, so that should be a low budget possiblity for you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10027 | From: Austin, TX USA | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Anthony Member Member # 17 posted January 24, 2000 03:39 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bev, I wouldn't ignore the Blue Note Monk alternates for long. In fact "alternates" is probably not an appropriate term in this case, as these are more like variations. Some of the heads are given completely different treatments than they are given in the master takes. Just something to consider. Anthony -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 101 | From: | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Chris Albertson Member Member # 551 posted January 24, 2000 07:36 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re your tongue-in-cheek surface noise theory, John L., that's funny, but, sadly, not so distant from the truth. Actually, the guy who headed up the Blues Mafia was the late Nick Perls, whose label, Yazoo, you may have come across. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2989 | From: NYC - New, temporarily downgraded, USA | Registered: Dec 1999 | IP: Logged John L Member Member # 123 posted January 25, 2000 01:03 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, I know the label well. But I don't know Nick Perls. At any rate, you did a superb job with the Bessie Smith collection, with the sound and the liner notes. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1200 | From: Capital of world madness DC | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Jason Drake Member Member # 602 posted January 25, 2000 01:32 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bev, where did you get the catalogue from ? I've tried to find a website for them but no luck. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 280 | From: London, England | Registered: Jan 2000 | IP: Logged Scott Lasser Member Member # 185 posted January 25, 2000 09:57 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All -- I bought the early releases from that label from our Allegro sales rep... and they sold astonishingly well! (Nice thing about Tower: they let me indulge myself.) I'm pretty sure you can find a complete listing of the series through Allegro, if not an entire catalog. Scott Lasser P.S. The J.C. Higginbotham is terrific. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1225 | From: St. Louis, Missouri | Registered: Jul 99 | IP: Logged Bev Stapleton Member Member # 27 posted January 25, 2000 10:51 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jason, I got mine from Jumbo Records in Leeds. I suspect you'd need to contact a store that has a fair selection. There's a place in Norwich called Jazz 'n' Blues Records advertising in this months Jazz Review about its ability to supply all Classics at £8.50 or 6 for £50 (or, is it wittily says, "If you are rich you can have all 600 for £4 500"). You might get a catalogue from them. Their telephone is 01603 467777 (email Jazzjerry@aol.com). I've never used them so I'm not sure what they are like. If you go into www.CDNow.com and look up Jazz Chronological Classics under 'label' you'll get an alphabet. Click on the letter you're after and you'll have the available names and can link on to a full listing of tracks. Not quite as nice as a catalogue you can ring to your hearts content but useful... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3103 | From: Worksop, Nottinghamshire, UK | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged marvin g Member Member # 470 posted January 25, 2000 04:32 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes I have quite a few of those Classics CD's especially the neglected swing bands. I've been looking for early stuff by Buddy Johnson,Helen Humes,Jimmy Luncford.Chick Webb minus Ella,Teddy Wilson minus Billie,Cab Calloway and a few other Harlemites of that era. I too like those covers it really fits the era of the music. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1009 | From: Chicago | Registered: Oct 1999 | IP: Logged Lon Armstrong Member Member # 137 posted January 26, 2000 05:49 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marv, if you see it grab the Hep Records cd of Chick Webb, or the Decca cd; these reissue early Webb material without Ella. Fine stuff. Also the two Chronologicals under Webb's name just about reissue all the sides without Ella. The Hep Records series on Teddy Wilson is excellent and reissue chronologically all the sides with and without Billie in the best sound I have heard, including piano solos. This is marvelous music, well presented on cd. I have not bought any of the Calloway Chronological Classics, but imagine that they are a good way to travel through the early material. The two items under Cab's name in the Best of the Big Band series from Columbia, if still in print, are good choices, although from the later thirties and early forties. . . . -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10027 | From: Austin, TX USA | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged alankin Member Member # 220 posted January 30, 2000 02:58 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I noticed that CyberMusicSurplus has a couple dozen Chronological Classics for 7.99. Here are the titles: ALIX COMBELLE 1940-1941 ALIX COMBELLE 1942-1943 BESSIE SMITH 1925-1927 BLUE LU BARKER 1938-1939 BOOTS & HIS BUDDIES 1937-1938. EDDIE "LOCKJAW" DAVIS 1946-1947. ERROLL GARNER 1944, VOL 2 FATS WALLER 1935, VOL 2 GARLAND WILSON 1931-1938 JAMES P JOHNSON 1928-1938 JOE MARSALA 1936-1942 MIDGE WILLIAMS 1937-1938 MILLS BLUE RHYTHM BAND 1936-1937. PUTNEY DANDRIDGE 1936 RICHARD M JONES 1923-1927 RICHARD M JONES 1927-1944 SIDNEY BECHET 1941-1944 STAN KENTON 1947 TEDDY HILL 1935-1937 TOMMY DORSEY & HIS ORCH 1936 WILLIE LEWIS 1936-1938 WILLIE LEWIS 1941 Some well-known people & some I've never heard of. Comments, anyone? The site is--CyberMusicSurplus Alan go.to/jazzmatazz [This message has been edited by alankin (edited January 30, 2000).] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1325 | From: Philadelphia, PA | Registered: May 99 | IP: Logged Swinging Swede Member Member # 197 posted January 30, 2000 06:25 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some quick notes here. I will go into more length on some of the names in my upcoming Swing era post(s) I promised Bev. ALIX COMBELLE The French Coleman Hawkins, who sometimes played great but sometimes got a bit silly in his solos. The two volumes listed mostly contain big band tracks recorded during the German occupation. Actually, as far as I remember, I thought the first volume ”1935-1940” (not on this list) was the best. BESSIE SMITH The most famous blues singer during the twenties, but you knew that already. BLUE LU BARKER Singer who I think was married to guitarist Danny Barker. I haven’t heard this one myself, but from what I’ve read she was just a so-so singer, but the sessions include many wellknown swing musicians. BOOTS & HIS BUDDIES Unlike most other territory bands, this Texas-based swing orchestra recorded quite a bit. This is the second of two volumes. One session is unfortunately marred by a trumpet section badly out of tune, but otherwise this was a pretty good band, well worth checking out. EDDIE ”LOCKJAW” DAVIS His first recordings. Has the famous sides with Fats Navarro, plus some rare sessions for obscure labels. A good buy. ERROLL GARNER Well worth getting for the ten track session that was his commercial debut. The other selections are from Timme Rosenkranz’s apartment sessions, that actually first were issued on Blue Note in the early 50’s, but which unfortunately have very substandard sound. FATS WALLER 22 tracks with his popular Rhythm, which recorded an unbelievable amount of numbers 1934-42. Remember that there are several lables that have issued the complete Rhythm recordings, of which Classics is one. GARLAND WILSON American pianist, whom Aric wouldn’t have liked, if you know what I mean... He was discovered by John Hammond but settled in Europe in 1932. Mostly solos, the value of which has been debated. Some have considered him one of the great jazz pianists, others not so. JAMES P. JOHNSON The second of Classics’ Johnson Cds mostly has pre-Depression recordings, both piano solos and small bands with many famous names. Also has the Pee Wee Russell’s Rhythmmakers session from 1938 (including Freddie Greene’s only recorded solo!). A very interesting set. JOE MARSALA Clarinetist Joe Marsala for many years led the house band at the Hickory House, where many famous musicians used to come to jam. These recordings basically are small band swing with a Condon touch. One interesting thing is the use of harp on some of the sessions, another that these sessions include the first recordings of two great drummers, Buddy Rich and Shelly Manne! Recommended. MIDGE WILLIAMS Singer about whom little is known. There are a lot of good swing musicians backing her though, including early versions of what would become the John Kirby Sextet. MILLS BLUE RHYTHM BAND Great early swing big band, unduly obscure today because of its anonymous name. In this volume, the last of five, Lucky Millinder was the leader, and the musicians include Henry ”Red” Allen, Charlie Shavers and Harry ”Sweets” Edison on trumpets, J.C. Higginbotham and Wilbur de Paris on trombones, Tab Smith and Joe Garland on reeds, Edgar Hayes and Billy Kyle on piano, Lawrence Lucie and Danny Barker on guitar, and future Kirby drummer O’Neil Spencer. Essential! PUTNEY DANDRIDGE One of the many Fats Waller clones record companies tried to come up with in the mid-30’s, in the wake of the huge success of Waller’s Victor recordings. Dandridge, who recorded for Vocalion, was no Waller, but his recordings have many great sidemen. This volume has Teddy Wilson, Cozy Cole, Henry ”Red” Allen, Joe Marsala, Clyde Hart, Doc Cheatham and Sidney Catlett among others. The first volume, btw, has Roy Eldridge, Chu Berry and Buster Bailey among others. RICHARD M. JONES Jones may today be best remembered for having been the producer of Louis Armstrong’s Hot Five and Hot Seven recordings, but he was actually a good pianist in his own right, who recorded many sessions in the 20’s. For lovers of 20’s jazz these two volumes offer many little-known sessions to check out. The latter disc also has a few scattered later sessions, including a rare non-Basie appearance by Herschel Evans! SIDNEY BECHET This volume has his last two Victor sessions from 1941, a V-Disc session from 1943, a Blue Note session from 1944 (Including ”Blue Horizon”) and a 1944 session under pianist Cliff Jackson’s name. STAN KENTON Kenton’s 40’s recordings are his greatest in my opinion. This volume has a mixture of ‘progressive jazz’, swinging charts like ”Capitol Punishment” and ”Minor Riff”, and vocal features for June Christy. Essential in one form or another. TEDDY HILL This set has the complete recordings of this big band, which toured Europe in 1937. The first session has Roy Eldridge and Chu Berry, and the last has the first recorded solo by Dizzy Gillespie! Other musicians include Dickie Wells and Russell Procope. Need I say more? TOMMY DORSEY Although TD’s greatest days lay ahead, this early incarnation of his big band is not without interest. Although most of the tracks are vocals, there are also several instrumentals in a Bob-Crosbyish dixieland style, later totally abandoned by Dorsey. The orchestra also had a great asset in tenorist Bud Freeman, the only pre-Prez tenorist to come up with an original style not dependent on Coleman Hawkins. TD himself was a master trombonist, and these recordings are not at all as square as some detractors would have you belive. WILLIE LEWIS This was a most unusual American big band, in that all its recordings were made in Europe! Among the sidemen were Bill Coleman on trumpet and Herman Chittison on piano. There is also a first volume ”1932-1936”, which has a session where Benny Carter sits in and also contributes six arrangements. Well worth checking out for the swing fan. Mostly lesser-known entries in the Classics catalogue there, but a lot of good music still! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1484 | From: Sweden | Registered: Aug 99 | IP: Logged alankin Member Member # 220 posted January 30, 2000 06:53 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the detailed information! I'm impressed by how much people know about the music. I'll probably try a few of these titles. (To my wallet's displeasure.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1325 | From: Philadelphia, PA | Registered: May 99 | IP: Logged Swinging Swede Member Member # 197 posted January 30, 2000 07:14 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeah, jazz interest and wallets don't go well together! I've noticed that too! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1484 | From: Sweden | Registered: Aug 99 | IP: Logged Lon Armstrong Member Member # 137 posted January 30, 2000 07:20 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That Boots and his Buddies will surprise you. The second volume is disappointing, mainly because the first volume is AMAZING. San Antonio band, playing and swinging like mad. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10027 | From: Austin, TX USA | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Bev Stapleton Member Member # 27 posted January 31, 2000 10:30 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking forward to your Swing post, Swede. The last one was invaluable. Have picked up three Teddy Wilson Classics of late which are so good! I've known the Holiday stuff for years but have been totally won over by the other stuff on these discs. I could easily become obsessional on Wilson, I think. Any comments on his later music? What's the duo with Lester Young from the 50s like? I've always stayed clear due to Young's reputation as being unreliable in the 50s. Also, Fats Waller. I bought a great compilation before Xmas and someone mentioned then I'd want more. Yes, you were right. What period is best to start in? I'm not sure whether to investigate the RCA discs or go with the Classics. And a curio. At the end of the Chu Berry Classics disc there are two tunes broken into part 1 and 2; both last for 2 minutes for each part and are cut off in their prime - no ending. It sounds as if the playing was recorded on two machines with a slight overlap. What was this all about? While we're at it I've always loved the sound of 40's music since first hearing Parker. Any recommendations on the Don Byas (someone drew my attention to a 1945 recording of Laura) and Howard McGhee front? And Lucky Thompson? I've heard them all in passing on other peoples discs and been impressed. And who should I be listening to guitar-wise from this period? I know a lot of Christian and would put 'Swing to Bop' somewhere near the top of all time favourite pieces. What's comparable? Sorry. That's abou 8,000 questions in one post. I'd better go and mark some exam papers! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3103 | From: Worksop, Nottinghamshire, UK | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Lon Armstrong Member Member # 137 posted January 31, 2000 11:04 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, I think that the Teddy Wilson and Lester Young quartet date on Verve is among the finest of Pres' Verve work; any band with Ted, Pres, Gene Ramey and Jo Jones is going to have a balance of fine moments. I have all the Chronological Classics of Don Byas, and can recommend each and every one. The latest two released are exceptionally nice, but they are all excellent. Some of the best sides are on a Savoy/Denon cd that is not too hard to find still: Jam Party. I believe I told you that you would be clamoring for more Fats Waller. The RCA series of discs are excellent; the sound is better than most of the Classics I think, and there are liner notes which are quite useful. However, in typical mysteriousness, not all volumes are in print. I actually have this material in the fourteen (!) volumes of Fats Waller and his Rhythm on King Jazz, recommended if you can find them, and the piano solos on RCA Bluebird, and a few other discs here and there (including the great material recorded in London which is on the DRG label.) As for guitar. . . A lot of what I would recommend is not easy to find. The forties and early fifties Carl Kress sides on Capitol I really really like, but they are not to my knowledge on cd except in the Capitol Mosaic box. And I think you would like the forties and early fifties sides of T-bone Walker, who I think of as jazz but most of the world claims as blues; he is one of my most favorite guitarists of this period, and other favorites are John Collins, Tiny Grimes, and the two Moore brothers, Oscar who played with the Nat King Cole Trio, and Johnny who was the leader of Johnny Moore and the Three Blazers, which featured Charles Brown on piano and vocals. Also a favorite of mine is Billy Bauer's work with the Lennie Tristano groups and those of Tristanoites. . . . [This message has been edited by Lon Armstrong (edited January 31, 2000).] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10027 | From: Austin, TX USA | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Chris Albertson Member Member # 551 posted January 31, 2000 03:58 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alankin, Here are just a few notes to supplement the excellent information fornished by the Swinging Swede. SS, I hope you don't mind some input from a Dane ALIX COMBELLE He also led a memorable 1935 session with the Quintet of the Hot Club of France (Grappelli, Reinhardt,et al). And I agree, the 1937-40 sides on the Swing label are his best. BESSIE SMITH I have to agree with the Swinging Swede--she was not just great, she was the greatest of the so-called "classic" blues singers. BLUE LU BARKER Yes, she was married to guitarist Danny Barker. Not a bad singer, actually, and she had a great sense of humor (as did Danny). Her best known tune is "Don't You Get Me High." Her accompanists included Henry Red Allen, Benny Carter, Buster Bailey, Lil Armstrong, Chu Berry, and Sammy Price. BOOTS & HIS BUDDIES Led by Boots Douglas--a good but not exceptional territory band that made a series of Bluebird sessions in San Antonio, Texas, between1935 and 38. EDDIE ”LOCKJAW” DAVIS Lockjaw also recorded several tenor duo albums with Johnny Griffin for Prestige (Lockjaw's label) and Riverside (Johnny's label), and worked intermittently with the Basie band for 20 years. ERROLL GARNER Considering the enormous volume of recordings that followed, these early sessions have more historical value than anything else. BTW, Timme and I used to share an apartment in New York--he had more private Garner recordings than were issued by BN. FATS WALLER Allthe Victor recordings are available, so here technical quality should be considered. GARLAND WILSON His 1931 solo sessions were also John Hammond's first. When John learned that Garland was gay, he distanced himself from him. Garland recorded in London and Paris between 1932 and 1938. Not a bad pianist JAMES P. JOHNSON Johnson was the father of the Harlem stride piano style. Fats Waller was his disciple, and he--in turn, inspired Basie. Johnson was also Bessie Smith's favorite pianist. JOE MARSALA I have nothing to add here. He was a capable clarinetist who often surrounded himself with better musicians. MIDGE WILLIAMS Midge was probably best known for her years with Louis Armstrong's orchestra. She performed extensively in Asia, including Shanghai and Tokyo, during the early Thirties (recording a couple of tunes in Japanese). Later, back in the US, she hit the road with Fats Waller. MILLS BLUE RHYTHM BAND I highly recommend these recordings. BTW, guitarist Lawrence Lucie is still performing (he's at the Blue Note, NYC, tonight 1/31/00). PUTNEY DANDRIDGE He was also Bill "Bojangles" Robinson's accompanist for awhile. RICHARD M. JONES Jones was Okeh's head of race records, but Lil Armstrong told me that he didn't actually produce the Hot Five and Hot Seven sessions. SIDNEY BECHET I have never heard a bad Bechet recording. STAN KENTON Again, I agree with the my fellow Scandinavian; Kenton’s 40’s Capitol recordings are his best. As a matter of fact, around 1948-8 I used to take a ferry to Malmö (Sweden) from Copenhagen, just to buy coffee, chocolate, Nellie Lutcher, and Kenton. TEDDY HILL He used to be a member of Bessie Smith's touring band, but he made his name on the cutting edge of bop. TOMMY DORSEY Surely you had heard of him, right? WILLIE LEWIS He was a member of the interesting Sam Wooding big band that played in Berlin in 1925, and he toured with Sam after that, acquiring a taste for Europe. I recall buying a 78rpm on Elite Special (a Swiss label) by "Williw Lewis Und Sein Niggerband"!! [This message has been edited by Chris Albertson (edited January 31, 2000).] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2989 | From: NYC - New, temporarily downgraded, USA | Registered: Dec 1999 | IP: Logged alankin Member Member # 220 posted January 31, 2000 04:35 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Chris! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1325 | From: Philadelphia, PA | Registered: May 99 | IP: Logged marvin g Member Member # 470 posted January 31, 2000 06:51 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been eyeballing the Clarence Williams Classics any suggestions?? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1009 | From: Chicago | Registered: Oct 1999 | IP: Logged Edward Member Member # 73 posted February 01, 2000 09:25 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marvin, you might be better off getting the Clarence Williams material presented on the two Frog ("Dreaming the Hours Away" and "Whoop It Up") and the three Collector's Classics ("Vol.1 1927-28", "Vol.2 1928", and "Vol.3 1929-30") CDs. John R.T. Davies remastered all of these discs, and I'm sure that their sound quality beats Chronological Classics'. The two Frog CDs cover (all of?) Clarence Williams' Columbia Recordings (May 1926 to February 1931), while the three Collector's Classics CDs cover Williams' recordings chronologically. There is some overlap between the two series, and you may have some difficulty tracking down the Collector's Classics (Danish label) discs - I believe that one of them is available for $7.99 from cybermusicsurplus.com . Of course, if you want all of Clarence Williams' material without the alternate takes, you can't beat the Chronological Classics series. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 246 | From: Southern California | Registered: Aug 99 | IP: Logged rries Member Member # 349 posted February 01, 2000 09:49 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- there must be something in the air. i just started buying these titles myself, and i had avoided them for all of the reasons stated above. i was going to start a thread, but i often procratinate. the copyright question is a good and timely one. this will probably be battled in the courts in the near future. disney just got an extension on mickey and some of the early movies (imagine that), but the big fight that looms just around the corner is the presley catalog. i've checked the ike quebec date on classics and it does not duplicate alot of material from the swingtet title that was recently reissued by blue note. has anyone heard the quebec classics title. if so, i would appreciate an opinion. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 225 | From: cincinnati, ohio, usa | Registered: May 99 | IP: Logged Bev Stapleton Member Member # 27 posted February 01, 2000 10:40 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The way I understood it music over 50 years old is out of copyright. I can imagine a company like Disney, with all its muscle, trying to change the rules to milk Mickey further. I can't really imagine anyone wanting to fight in the courts over Fletcher Henderson et al! In a way its a pity! Does it seem like there is going to be an attempt to widen the copyright situation? Can't see much of a reason. Yes, an artist and his/her dependants, the company who financed them (I suppose!) have a claim to remuneration for a reasonable time - and 50 years seems more than reasonable! Beyond that we're just talking about big corporations wanting more money. [This message has been edited by Bev Stapleton (edited February 01, 2000).] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3103 | From: Worksop, Nottinghamshire, UK | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Lon Armstrong Member Member # 137 posted February 01, 2000 10:58 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob, that Swingtets cd from Blue Note USA contains sessions from others as well as Ike, so that is why there are different tunes thereon. The Chronological Classics Quebec has I believe all the masters from Blue Note of the Swingtets, etc.(can't remember; it might lack one session) and four Savoy sides. The Blue Note Classics (Japan) Quebec two cds has all the Blue Note masters, and all the alternates. Shortly after I got this and the Swingtet sides I was lucky enough to receive tapes of the Quebec/Hardee Mosaic set (still never have seen the booklet or a photocopy) and then shortly after that I purchased the two Quebec and one Hardy on Blue Note Classics from Japan, and several others with material that is on the Swingtets cd, and I confess to not listening to any of the others in some time; the Blue Note Classics sound fantastic. There is also now a Definitive Records (Spain) cd that has the Blue Note masters, in what I imagine is great sound, as all their other releases sound great. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10027 | From: Austin, TX USA | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Swinging Swede Member Member # 197 posted February 05, 2000 04:49 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chris, I certainly don’t mind! Let me instead take the opportunity to say that I think that it’s great to have you on this board. Your experience in the business enable you to offer an inside perspective that I think is highly appreciated by all board members! And keep those anecdotes coming! Marvin, Clarence Williams’ most important recordings were with his Blue Five featuring Louis Armstrong and Sidney Bechet 1923-1925. On Classics those can be found on ”1921-1924” and ”1924-1926”. His later recordings from the 20’s, although less important, also had many famous guests. His recordings from the 30’s pretty much continued in the same style (Williams never making the shift to swing), although by then he stuck to a few lesser-known but loyal sidemen. I wrote a paragraph on Williams in the ”Where to start before Swing?” thread, which you may want to check. Bev, Teddy Wilson led similar sessions until 1939. Then he started a big band which included Ben Webster on tenor, but it was shortlived. (After it folded, Webster went to Ellington, and that was what really catapulted him into fame.) 1940-44 Wilson led a sextet which unfortunately was underrecorded, partly because of the record ban. In the mid-40’s he once again recorded with pick-up groups, as well as solos, now for Musicraft. Wilson’s style remained the same for the rest of his career, so you know what you get if you buy a Wilson record! Lester Young’s style changed in the 50’s, and many have seen this a sign of decline. But this view was something that bothered Young, since the change was intentional on his part, playing even sparser than before, stripping down his choice of notes to the essentials. Sure, his life was unstable in those years, and he was in a physical decline, but his recordings rarely reflect that, but rather his change in concept. Regarding Fats Waller And His Rhythm, Classics is always a safe choice, since they stay in print, and also have the other material (his piano solos, his European recordings, and on the last one, not yet issued, his V-Disc recordings). The RCA sets have much better liner notes of course, but I saw that Lon mentioned that they are not all in print, unfortunately. Another thing I can mention is that the last of them (actually the first one released) ”The Last Years 1940-1943” has alternate takes instead of master takes for several selections. The King Jazz label, judging from the Cds I have (not Waller) have good sound, and alternate takes, but they may be hard to find today. As for what Rhythm recordings to start with, I think you should start with the earliest ones (from 1934) and then you can work your way forward. Although I don’t know the specific origin of the Berry-Ventura sides, they were apparently not commercial recordings, but some sort of private recordings, only released years later on the Sittin’ In With label. Around that time portable disc cutters started to become an option (later wire and tape recorders) and it was not unusual for enthusiasts to record their heroes in this way. The sound was of course much inferior, but especially when they featured musicians who had died early, they became interesting for release anyway. The most notorious example is Charlie Parker, with whom there exist remarkably many private recordings, some unlistenable, but released anyway. It’s amazing by the way to hear how Ventura had almost completely copied Berry’s style, although there also are some specific Venturaisms one recognizes from his later recordings. By the way, Classics has recently released the first CD under Ventura’s own name, ”1945-1946”, and it’s recommended. Another famous white tenorist who was a big fan of Chu Berry in his early days is Stan Getz. Regarding Don Byas, I agree with Lon, all the Classics are recommended. After having played with Andy Kirk (1939-40) and Count Basie (1941-43), where you also can find several solos of his, he recorded an astonishing number of sessions under his own name in 1944-46, as well as being a highly in-demand sideman. In 1946 he went to Europe and didn’t return for over two decades. Although he continued to record a lot in Europe, his departure from the US scene is the reason why he isn’t as wellknown as he otherwise would have been. American musicians visiting Europe always wanted to play with him, and in my opinion Don Byas is a tenor giant. In the mid to late 40’s McGhee was often mentioned up there with Gillespie and Parker as one of the top beboppers. ‘Personal problems’ kept him largely off the scene for the next decade, thus making him a rather forgotten name. But from 1945 to 1948 he recorded a lot of sessions under his own name, showing what a great musician he was during his prime. Since he recorded for many different labels, I think it’s best to go for the Classics releases. So far there have been two, ”1948” and ”1946-1948”, and the third which should be ”1945-1946” will probably come soon. After that, his next sessions were those that were released on the 10” Connoisseurs. Let me also mention that McGhee had a famous swing era feature, ”McGhee Special” recorded with Andy Kirk in 1942, which was composed and arranged by McGhee and featured him throughout. I will write more about Kirk’s recordings in my swing era post. Regarding Lucky Thompson, he also played with Basie , in 1944-45, replacing Lester Young on the chair that Byas actually had held previously. For his own 40’s recordings, I’m waiting for a Classics release, which I think should come, but if one can’t wait, I know that there are at least two Cds on small labels called ”The Beginning Years” and ”Smooth Sailing”. I don’t have them myself so I can’t comment on them any further. By the way, both Byas and Thompson are tenorists whose styles have been called ”transitional”, a label I think is unfair. The type of style they had is musically every bit as definite as any pure so called swing or bop tenorist. Regarding a guitarist, the one that most comes to my mind from your description is Tiny Grimes. He had a Charlie Christian-influenced swing-based style and appeared on many recordings in the mid-40’s. His first session under his own name was made for Savoy in 1944, and is quite famous since it had Charlie Parker as sideman. He led another session in 1946, and then in the late 40’s led a R&Bish band. I think his sessions under his own name have been released on the Blue Moon label, but otherwise the best example I can think of now is his recordings with the Art Tatum Trio from 1944, which are out on Classics’ Tatum Cds ”1940-1944” and ”1944”. Especially the ten-track Brunswick session on ”1940-1944” is essential, and since Tatum himself is quite some bonus, there really isn’t much to hesitate about there! Grimes also led three Prestige albums in the 50’s, which are available as OJCs. Otherwise the problem with guitarists is that they rarely recorded as leaders. You will frequently hear a guitarist pop up here and there as sideman on big band and small group recordings from this era, but rarely as leader, and that’s why it’s difficult to direct you to any specific album. As for the BN Powells and Monks, I, like you, prefer to hear the master takes only, but that can easily be accomplished by programming the CD player. It only takes a few seconds, so it’s better than buying the music anew, or not buying it at all. As for the Nat King Cole Classics the earlier Cds have recordings for several different labels, most importantly Decca. From ”1943-1944” it’s mainly Capitol. The earlier ones are generally jazzier than the later ones, when a shift to emphasizing his singing and slower pop material is noticeable. Well, Bev, it seems like you forgot to ask your other 7990 questions! To Lon especially I should say that from Cole’s Capitol days, his Classics Cds also contain: a Disc session with Illinois Jacquet on ”1943-1944”, a V-Disc session on ”1944-1945”, a Sunset session with Charlie Shavers and Herbie Haymer as well as another V-Disc session on ”1945”, and the Keynoters session with Willie Smith as well as one more V-Disc track on ”1946”. So it’s not only Capitol material from 1943 and onwards. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1484 | From: Sweden | Registered: Aug 99 | IP: Logged Victor Christensen Member Member # 214 posted February 06, 2000 06:09 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bev et al About Fats Waller on King Jazz. Planet has 12 of them listed in their february flier for 750 pesetas a piece. Vic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 805 | From: Copenhagen, DENMARK | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Bev Stapleton Member Member # 27 posted February 06, 2000 06:33 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I owe you all a million thanks again...although I thought I'd made my mind up on the RCA Wallers and now I'm wondering if the Classics might be a better approach to avoid the alternate takes. Is the sound quality that different? On the guitar front I know the Parker sides with Tiny Grimes. Will have to look further. I occasionally hear Tal Farlow mentioned with great love. I have the Norvo/Mingus trio LP he made and must listen more closely. Any comments on Farlow. I saw a Verve disc which seems readily available - it was called something like 'The Artistry of Tal Farlow.' Any advice? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3103 | From: Worksop, Nottinghamshire, UK | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Scott Lasser Member Member # 185 posted February 06, 2000 04:23 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bev -- You might be refering to the two Verve dates "The Tal Farlow Album" and "Tal". Both are exceptional; I give "Album" a slight nod because several of the cuts feature Joe Morello on drums. I really love his stuff form the 50's and 60's. Honestly, though -- You can't go wrong with either discs. Scott -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1225 | From: St. Louis, Missouri | Registered: Jul 99 | IP: Logged Bev Stapleton Member Member # 27 posted February 07, 2000 10:32 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks Scott. I know I got the name of the album wrong. It was actually 'The Swinging Guitar of Tal Farlow' - I just checked on CD Now's site. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3103 | From: Worksop, Nottinghamshire, UK | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Swinging Swede Member Member # 197 posted February 07, 2000 03:39 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is also a Verve Elite Edition of "This Is Tal Farlow" recorded in 1958. I understand from the postings here that the VEEs often are difficult to locate in America, but here in Europe they seem much easier to come by. But we are definitely into the modern jazz era when we're talking about Farlow. Another great 50's guitarist, whom there doesn't seem to be much dicussion about is Barney Kessel. He came up in the post-Christian years and can be heard as sideman on several mid-40's sessions. From 1953 until the early 60's he recorded a string of albums for Contemporary, and almost all of them have been released as OJCs. Very swinging, in a modern vein. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1484 | From: Sweden | Registered: Aug 99 | IP: Logged Scott Lasser Member Member # 185 posted February 08, 2000 05:02 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Someone on another thread just mentioned that they had found the VEE of "This Is Tal..." at a WALMART!!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1225 | From: St. Louis, Missouri | Registered: Jul 99 | IP: Logged Swinging Swede Member Member # 197 posted February 10, 2000 04:47 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Exciting news! I was in a record store the other day, and had not planned to pick up anything really, when my eyes suddenly caught it: a boxset from Classics called ”Complementary Tracks”! Now, normally I know in advance the next few titles from Classics, but this release I hadn’t heard about at all. It didn’t take me many seconds to realize that this was the kind of release one dreams about, only to wake up to the gloomy reality of unreleased and OOP music! ”Complementary Tracks” is a 2-CD set with a third ‘bonus CD’. It has the remaining tracks of some artists, that didn’t fit on previous releases, as well as some discographically isolated sessions, and some tracks that simply weren’t available when previous volumes were produced. The third bonus CD corrects some errors that were present on early pressings of some titles. Those early pressings in some cases had the wrong tune, or an alternate take instead of the master take. Of course I’m one of the suckers who bought those early pressings when they came out! So what does this set contain? Well, it has the remaining non-Ella Chick Webb tracks, it has the remaining Al Cooper’s Savoy Sultans session, the two remaining Fletcher Henderson sessions (1945 & 1949), the remaining two 40’s Don Redman sessions (1943 & 1946 with Don Byas), the only session ever made by the legendary Walter Page’s Blue Devils, the 1927 session with the Chickasaw Syncopaters (which in a way would become the Jimmie Lunceford orchestra), the last session by Alphonso Trent’s legendary territory orchestra (the previous sessions are on the recent ”Stuff Smith 1944-1946”, Smith being a sideman on those), the only pre-LP era recordings under clarinetist Omer Simeon’s name (and these 1929 performances are GREAT, with Earl Hines on piano on one), Taft Jordan’s only pre-LP session, the 1924 Red Onion Jazz Babies sessions with Louis Armstrong, clearly anticipating the Hot Five recordings, three of Midge Williams’ extremely rare 1934 Japanese recordings (imagine hearing ”St. Louis Blues” and ”Dinah” sung in Japanese! On the latter we also get to hear Japanese trumpet and clarinet solos! In 1934!), pianist Garnet Clark (who died 24 years old in a mental asylum) on a breathtaking ”I Got Rhythm” solo performance ... plus some other rarities! The bonus CD enabled me to hear, for instance, Lunceford’s ”Bugs Parade” for the first time. My original pressing had ”Blues In The Groove” a second time instead. All in all, an exciting release, filling some important holes in one’s collection! The sound is very good, and I agree with Lon, that the newer Classics releases have very good sound. Those from the early years (the label started late in 1989) are not on the same level soundwise, but hey, that’s what’s said about BNs and OJCs from that time too. This release also has some words on the history and intentions of Classics, that I thought you would find interesting: ”Over the last ten years, Classics has issued 600 CDs with a total of some 13000 tracks. Compared with the complete output of all jazz artists until 1950, this is only a percentage - but a considerable one! It has always been the policy of Classics not to focus exclusively on the big names and greatest bands but also to make available the recordings of unduly neglected or almost forgotten artists. We have tried and always intend to include all studio recordings or live sessions by an artist as long as all or part of the resulting music was actually issued at or around the time of the recording. This double CD collates a number of recordings that complete sessions by artists whose music is already out on Classics or makes tracks available that stand rather isolated, discographically speaking.” The notes conclude with the following passage: ”We are looking forward to your ongoing support, criticism and help in order to carry on with many more new releases.” Well, no e-mail address or website is given, but on the last page there is an address one can write to in order to get a free fully detailed Classics catalogue [and presumably offer suggestions too]: CLASSICS - MÉLODIE - 50, RUE STENDAHL - 75020 PARIS - FRANCE FAX: (33) (0)1 43 58 62 26 I hope I got it right there. Well, in later years they have started to release the recordings of several white band leaders, but there are some more I definitely would like to see, like Charlie Barnet and Jimmy Dorsey. Perhaps they are in the works already, but it doesn’t hurt to suggest them, I suppose. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1484 | From: Sweden | Registered: Aug 99 | IP: Logged Bev Stapleton Member Member # 27 posted February 11, 2000 11:30 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Swede. The disc you mention sound wonderful and I'll be looking out for it on my next London trip. Incidentally, are you from Sweden? Or of Swedish extraction? Or nothing to do with Sweden at all? Perhaps it's your christian name? Just curious. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3103 | From: Worksop, Nottinghamshire, UK | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Lon Armstrong Member Member # 137 posted February 11, 2000 11:51 AM ---------------------------------------------------

Very interesting theory, Bertrand! Would the tune perhaps most likely be a leftover from the 'Schizophrenia' session from three months before, since the rhythm section in the same, and probably had all played the tune? Does the discographies list any untitled rejected tune from Shorter's session? This is pure speculation, and not as much of a theory: Shorter's session is listed on the CD as produced by Frank Wolff, while the Morgan session three months later was produced by Alfred Lion. If this is correct at all, could Wolff had disapproved of the tune, while Lion was willing to give it a try (allthough the whole session subsequently was put in the can)? Are there really any stories about how Frank Wolff was as a producer?

I presume that the Vogue discs have been discontinued and are now impossible to find...

Thanks for the link, Brownie! I wasn't aware of the book about him! A reason as good as any to dust off my ever-worsening French...

The first time I heard of Bobby Jaspar was in the early 90s when I got the Prestige album 'Interplay for 2 Trumpets and 2 Tenors' which featured Coltrane and Jaspar on tenor. I had just begun to discover Coltrane - I still restricted myself to his Prestige period after hearing one of the later Impulses which left me puzzled - and bought a lot of albums just because he was on them. I found Jaspar's playing nice enough, but it wasn't until years later when a friend played me 'I Should Care' from a J.J. Johnson LP (with Tommy Flanagan, Wilbur Little and Elvin Jones) that I really was intrigued by this figure. Since then I've gotten one of the releases in his name in the Jazz in Paris series ('Jeux de quartes') where he sticks to flute, and two Donald Byrd live albums from 1958 featuring him mainly on tenor. While he may not be a "lost giant", I can't help to think that he gets curiously little attention nowadays. He did release a couple of albums in the US, but I have so far not found any reviews and opinions about them. It's sad he died prematurely. In connection to some heart surgery it's been said; was it drug-related too?

I'm not even able to connect to the AAJ site right now. Maybe that will steer over some more jazz discussion here. Speaking for myself, I'm very busy these days, and I haven't got enough time for posting much. I expect things to ease down very soon, though, and I certainly intend to do my JAZZ posting here at Organissimo!

At the BNBB most people had their location and perhaps a few more pieces of info in their personal profiles. It would be fun if people cared to flesh out their profiles on this board too. Some have changed user names, and it can be hard to keep track of the fading memories from the [you-know-what] board. Edit: Damn, I made a typo in the topic title! Does the software allow us to edit titles, or even delete the topics we've started? The latter could perhaps be useful in the Offering/Looking for forum.

I would like to thank all of you! Brownie's response was actually written at the same time as was thanking Mike B, and then I missed it when I read his (brownie's) next post! This thread has brought up so many interesting suggestions! With Hank's enormous discography it's valuable to have some reference points.

Interesting titles, brownie, especially the 5 CD box with Vinding and Hart! Do you know what kind of distribution Alfa Jazz Records has? I haven't found much at all on the web. Is it a Japanese label?

I had just promised myself not to buy anymore music this month, but I happened to pass by a record store which seems to be closed most of the time. This time it was open, and there appeared to be a jazz sale going on... A lot of CDs and LPs were in the dangerous 2-3€ range; it's all too easy to spend too much! Among other things I found these: LPs Charles McPherson 'From This Moment On' (Prestige pressing, not OJC) Phineas Newborn Jr. 'Please Send Me Someone to Love' (Contemporary) Jimmy Owens 'No Escaping It' (Polydor) Earnie Wilkins and the Almost Big Band (Storyville) - This one is terrific!! John Lewis & Hank Jones 'An Evening with Two Grand Pianos' (Little Davis Records) Stanley Cowell Trio 'Close to You Alone' (DIW) Jimmy Smith 'The Cat' (Verve) CDs Adam Makovicz 'The Solo Album' (Verve) - Recorded in Stockholm and apparently released on Verve for the Swedish market Clifford Jordan / Richard Davis / James Williams / Ronnie Burrage 'Fourplay' (DIW) - Sealed! Buster Williams Quintet 'Somewhere Along the Way' (TCB) Sam Yahel 'Searchin' (Naxos) - The price was 1€! Fredrik Noren Band 'T' (Mirrors) Ron McClure Quartet 'Pink Cloud' (Naxos)

Why is it that the 'Aric applies for the A/R job' thread has 80 views, but this as of now less than 20?

Thanks Mike! I guess this album will not be a priority for me right now. But it's interesting that it was done in the early sixties. From what I've understood ragtime had a big (and fairly short) boost after Marvin Hamlish had adapted a lot of Scott Joplin tunes for his score for "The Sting" in 1973, but before that the interest in ragtime was marginal at best. BTW, I lucked into the Hank Jones-John Lewis album "An Evening with Two Grand Pianos" in a 3€-bin yesterday (among other things).

Anyone here who remembers Jean-Luc Godard's "Alphaville" from 1965? I remember that when catching the film from TV one late night ten years ago, the score made a strong impression on me. I made some attempts at finding it on LP or CD back then, but I never succeeded.

There is a Prestige album called "Interplay for 2 Trumpets and 2 Tenors" recorded in 1957 (I think it was under the leadership of Mal Waldron, but credited to "Coltrane et al."), which has Coltrane and Bobby Jaspar trading fours. If nothing else, it's a good opportunity of hearing more of the under-exposed Jaspar.

I had a somewhat absurd experience of this kind a while ago. In a record shop nearby there was a CD copy of Elvin Jones's "On the Mountain", a trio album with Jan Hammer and Gene Perla from 1975. I was a bit hesitant, since Jan Hammer played some electronic keyboards on a few tracks, but on the other hand there was some acoustic piano as well, and I've always liked the very few recordings I've heard where Hammer plays jazz, rather than something else. The disc was only about $4, but somehow I never came around to actually buy it. Well, when the disc had been sitting in the bin for a year or two, I finally decided I'd get it. I went to the shop, and the disc was still there, down in the basement. I just turned my back to it for two minutes, flipping through some other bins, but when I returned to the shelf it was suddenly gone! I went through everything in the room, but the CD was nowhere to find. I went up and asked the owner, and it turned out someone just bought it five minutes earlier! Just because I couldn't get over it, I ended up ordering it from an online store for $18 instead...

A track listing would be very useful, Mike! If there are a few favorites in there I might begin to hunt for it after all! Anyone here who has heard the ragtime album for Paramount?

Then I might learn to like it too! I know we had radically different opinions regarding Duke Pearson's 'How Insensitive', but nowadays I find myself listening to it once in a while!

Thanks, Jim, for filling me in on the Golden Crest label! I suppose that's a record I'll never come across, though... I also thought your observation that Hank's voicings had similarities to Thad's arranging was spot-on! I haven't heard that particular Gordon album, but "somewhat dissonant chords" is a very good description of what I like so much with his voicings. And they're often in a lower register than most of the other pianist's of the time. It seems that Hank has never been looked upon as anything else than a rather traditional player, but his chording in the mid 50s sometimes sounds rather advanced, if one listens closely. I wonder if he was pidgeon-holed as a "lightweight" already in the 50s. Anyone with a long memory around? (I ask because the liners of "The Talented Touch" from 1958 states that "His work will stand up under the scrutiny of the most critical of jazzophiles; yet it makes for perfect light listening, since it's all easy and lyrical") And a question for Lon: You said that his Impulses are absent. The only Hank Jones Impulse album I know of is the dismal "Happenings", which features him mainly on electrical harpsichord. Are there more of him on that label?

Is this the album listed as "New Formulas from the Jazz Lab" at the AMG? Thanks for trying to find info on the 'Swings "Gigi"' album. I wonder if it may in fact be some semi-legitimate release of Gryce's RCA album.

What about Paul Motian?

The AMG lists a date called 'Hank Jones Swings "Gigi"' on Golden Crest records. I've searched in vain for information on this album - does anyone know anything about it?

Thanks for the recommendations, James! I will certainly look out for the duo albums, a somewhat underrated concept. Some people seem to look at piano duo projects as mere gimmicks, just one step ahead of "21 bones", or even "101 strings"-type albums.

In my opinion Hank Jones is one of the finest jazz pianists. I've recently acquired several of his 50s and 60s dates for Savoy, Capitol and Argo, and I think they are among the most enjoyable I've heard within the idiom. (On a sidenote: many of them seem to be a bit oddly programmed, for example starting with a couple of ballads) Within what idiom, one could ask. Certain elements of Hank's playing are certainly pre-bop, but to label him a swing pianist does not sound right at all. What I recently have been noticing more and more is that behind his delicate touch, his voicings, especially when comping behind other soloists, are more complex than it may initially appear. I've heard people accusing him of being lightweight, but those certainly don't look far beyond his touch, which in my opinion is one of the most elegant among jazz pianists. These are, so far, my favorites from Hank's earlier recordings. I've still to hear most of his work from the 70s and 80s. * 'Here's Love' (Argo, 1963) Wonderful quartet date with Kenny Burrell, Milt Hinton and Elvin Jones * 'Have You Met Hank Jones?' (Savoy 1955) A solo piano album, which displays how thoughtfully he could play. The other 50s Savoys are enjoyable, but perhaps not as a whole fully satisfying. I've just started to listen to 'Porgy and Bess' and 'The Talanted Touch' (both on Capitol), so I haven't yet formed an opinion on those two. Any other Hank Jones admirers out there? I seem to recall that Lon has put in a word for Hank on some occasion. (And Hank was Duke Pearson's favorite pianist, too )

OK, folks. I realize that some things should be left in peace. This is truly one of the great threads from th BNBB, though. I hope noone will object to it being posted here. Hutch Member Member # 2334 posted January 09, 2002 11:21 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- anybody listen to this one? i almost bought it yesterday, but held back. sound quality decent? is the sound/material similar to grant's "alive" album? it has patton and features a version of high heel sneakers... gotta be funky then - right? any input would be appreciated!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 313 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted January 09, 2002 11:28 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's in the vein of the earlier Green-Patton-Dixon collaborations, not "Alive". I've seen '69(?) given as the recording date, but it sounds more like '63 or so musically. Good stuff, worth having for sure. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10291 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged Swinging Swede Member Member # 197 posted January 09, 2002 11:38 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's supposed to be from 1967. It was originally on Cobblestone. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1484 | From: Sweden | Registered: Aug 99 | IP: Logged impossible Member Member # 515 posted January 09, 2002 11:48 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've got a copy of this on 32Jazz. It's the funkiest Grant Green in my collection. I would recommend it. Nothing jawdropping about it, just a solid cooking bluesy groove date. Grant plays alot on this one. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1902 | From: Riverside, RI | Registered: Nov 1999 | IP: Logged B3-er Member Member # 407 posted January 09, 2002 01:20 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The sound quality is not up to par with Blue Note releases from the era (late 60s) but it doesn't detract from the great music. The vastly underrated Ben Dixon is on drums. I really like their version of High Heel Sneakers. Every organist worth his/her Leslies has done this, but no one finer than Patton and Green. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 737 | From: Lansing, MI USA | Registered: Sep 1999 | IP: Logged fitzgera Member Member # 269 posted January 09, 2002 04:32 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When I got the 32Jazz issue, I wondered this and never got any info - Track 6, Work Song is missing the first two measures. Can owners of the Muse re-issue or the Cobblestone original help me ascertain if this is a problem only with this issue? Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1364 | From: | Registered: Jun 99 | IP: Logged JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted January 09, 2002 05:52 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Muse has a 2 full 16 bar theme choruses (one w/Grant palying the melody alone, the next w/Patton), but the first chorus has Grant doing some wierd stuff, sounding as if he's starting in bar 3. It's really deceptive, and throws you for a loop, but it all comes out right - 2 full 16 bar choruses. I had to count them just to make absolutely sure the first time I heard it! Haven't heard the 32Jazz version, though. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10291 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged cheese Junior Member Member # 2538 posted January 09, 2002 06:28 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For those who don't know... That's Larry Young playing on the Iron City album, not John Patton. For those in doubt, listen. For those still in doubt, ask John Patton or Ben Dixon. They'll both tell you the same thing. How the label ever got this confused in the first place is mind-boggling. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1 | From: | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged bertrand Member Member # 230 posted January 09, 2002 11:31 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cheese, Dixon told me the same thing, however Patton didn't mention it when we discussed this record, and talked as if he were the organist on this record. Some serious research needs to be done on this. You seem to be pretty convinced. Are there passages you could point out where one can hear trademarks of Larry's 1967 style? I couldn't find any on a first cursory investigation. I will listen to it again carefully and see if I can find any Young and/or Patton characteristics. Mike, I have a tape copy of the Muse version (Muse MR 5120), and the 32jazz CD. I will do a comparison when I can dig up the tape. I remember reading about this, and my recollection is that when I listened to the tape, it was the same situation. I had just assumed that Grant chose to begin the tune in middle of the head. I think Jim describes it far better than I can. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Jamming With Edward Member Member # 1593 posted January 10, 2002 03:15 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I suggest listening to it before you buy it, if a store in your area can do that for you. I love Grant, but this one falls flat for me. Can anyone give me the word on First Session?" -------------------- -Tracy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 860 | From: Townsville | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged kenny weir Member Member # 1940 posted January 10, 2002 03:24 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by tracysimek: Can anyone give me the word on First Session?" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's an OK date, but not essential IMHO - unless you're a rabid Grant fiend. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1177 | From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged doubleg Member Member # 2285 posted January 11, 2002 02:23 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- tracysimek, the line-up of "First Session" is terrific, but when I listened to it in a shop, I found most of the music lame and untogether with surprisingly tentative playing of Grant Green. A dissappointing release, only worth buying for completist reasons. I passed it by, although I love GG. On the other hand, even though "Iron Man" is not a masterpiece, at least it has a tight group feel. And some very good moments too. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 61 | From: bremen, germany | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted January 11, 2002 02:43 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What/who was "Iron City" originally recorded for? Cobblestone wasn't in business in 1967 (thanks for clarifying that, Swede), and the Muse issue gives no details, listing only Joe Fields as "Executive Producer", which is meaningless - both Muse & Cobblestone were his labels (Cobblestone in conjunction w/Don Schlitten, of course), so "Executive Producer" probably just means, "he put the record out". But where did it originate? As for the Young/Patton question, if it really was recorded in 1967, I have a hard time hearing Larry. But if it was in fact recorded earlier in the 60's, then I can possibly believe it - Young's earlier Prestige dates show a much more "traditional" approach to the organ than do his BNs. So what's the deal? Who & When seem to be open for investigation. Where's Nick Danger when you need him? FWIW, I like "Iron City" well enough - sounds like a typical set at a bar, not too much of anything one way or the other. I'm glad that EVERY Green record didn't sound like this, but it fills out the picture a little bit. He ain't gonna be recording anything new anytime soon, ya' know? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10291 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged Bill Fenohr Member Member # 592 posted January 11, 2002 04:40 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Since the recording date is basically given as circa 67, i am wondering if there may be more then one session involved here.Could it be possible that both Larry and Big John are on the album. To my ears for example the organ solo on Samba De Orpheus is much more angular then Pattons usual style. Just a thought. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1484 | From: Lansing,Mi,Ingham | Registered: Jan 2000 | IP: Logged bertrand Member Member # 230 posted January 11, 2002 11:00 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill, The same thought came to me. If Patton plays on some tunes, and Larry on others, that would explain why Dixon thinks it's Larry, and why Patton didn't deny being on this session. Now I really need to listen to it again and see if I hear anything... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Jazz Messenger Member Member # 911 posted January 11, 2002 03:22 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Patton, when asked about a session with Grant Green by audience at KC Blues and Jazz Fest, thought that particular session was with Jimmy Ponder. IMO, he doesn't remember each session that well. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 265 | From: Indianapolis, IN | Registered: Jun 2000 | IP: Logged bertrand Member Member # 230 posted January 12, 2002 01:57 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Most musicians don't remember each session. In fact, when I spoke to Dixon, he said he thought it was Larry Young based on a recent playback of the CD, not on his recollection of the date. I think Jim is onto something: how do we know for sure that Iron City is from 1967? The last session before 1967 is Stanley Turrentine's Rough And Tumble (7/1/66). The next is Rusty Bryant's Rusty Bryant Returns (2/17/69). It seems a bit odd that Grant would have one isolated session in the middle of his 'dry spell', a dry spell that probably resulted from 'personal problems'. And, as he said, musically, it seems to be from an earlier period. Remember that there are two tracks originally on Feelin' The Spirit (12/21/62). Also, as we saw on the thread concerning Grant's unissued Verve sessions from late 1965, http://www.bluenote.com/bulletinboard/ubb-...pic&f=19&t=0003 87 The tracks "Iron City March", "Hi Heel Sneakers" and "Samba De Orfeu" were on these unissued Verve sessions, but also appeared on Iron City. This could place Iron City around the time of the Verve sesions. The only issued Verve, His Majesty King Funk, is from 5/26/65 and features Larry Young. I listened to "Samba De Orfeu" today, and if this recording is from 1965 (or earlier), then I'm willing to believe that it could be Larry Young, since he didn't quite have that trademark 'eerie' sound as well-developed in 1965. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged fitzgera Member Member # 269 posted January 12, 2002 07:39 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But John Patton went in a similar direction later - I don't have a huge collection of BJP material, but listening to 1969 stuff shows me that by that time, at least, he had been influenced by Larry Young. As Joe Fields is still around, I would recommend asking him for whatever info he has. Don Schlitten too. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1364 | From: | Registered: Jun 99 | IP: Logged bigboy Member Member # 2546 posted January 13, 2002 08:27 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am an organist who has a very complete knowledge of both of these artists' work. No matter what the album cover said, I've ALWAYS considered this to be the work of Larry Young, not John Patton. Both men have VERY individual styles. John Patton would not "drop" his own style one day on a recording session and decide to play like Larry Young. Patton is a complete individual who, although at times using some of the same musical components as Young, always has his OWN musical vision. Just like Don Patterson or Jimmy Smith would never play like Young. Unlike today, individuality is what these artists strove for above all else. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 113 | From: | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged bertrand Member Member # 230 posted January 13, 2002 10:31 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bigboy, Thanks for your reply. This is the kind of thing I hoped to get - organists who have an opinion one way or the other on this matter. If it's not too much trouble, do you think you could take time to point out some passages that are typically Young, and some that are typically *not* Patton? I also was able to get Joe Fields' phone number, and I will try to get a hold of him. Thanks, Bertrand. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged bigboy Member Member # 2546 posted January 13, 2002 12:12 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bertrand, I just randomly listened to two tracks from Iron City, Old Man Moses and Work Song. I can tell you this, there is not ONE thing that points to the playing of John Patton. It's Larry Young's whole ball of wax...the Basslines (and his touch on the accent of the pedals is all him), the comping, the soloing...EVERYTHING. I can't point you to specific instances where it suggests Larry Young, because it ALL not only suggests Larry, but IS Larry. Of this I have NO doubts. John Patton, who I regard in equally high esteem, has his own style. And it's not Larry Young's. Also, don't put too much stock in what year all this happened. If you think Larry Young was playing the way he does on Contrasts for every gig he played as a sideman that year, you'd be wrong I'm sure. Even George Benson has stated nearly getting in a fight with Larry after he had gone into his current "style" on one of Benson's gigs. I'm sure if Grant Green wanted to do a boogaloo date for Muse, Larry as a sideman would play the bag while maintaining his identity. Just as the recording shows. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 113 | From: | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged Bill Fenohr Member Member # 592 posted January 13, 2002 01:26 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After listening to Iron City a few times in the last couple of days, i am pretty firmly in the Larry Young camp. Again, this is just a thought, but could these in fact be tracks from those unissued Verve dates from late 65. It just does not make sense to me (although im sure it has happened from time to time) that an artist would record three songs that he recorded two years prior. One i could see, but three.... I think the key is finding out weather Cobblestone/Muse actually held this session or bought the tapes from Grant or someone else. The fact that there is no exact recording date and no session producer, makes this date very suspect in my mind. BTW, i am not accusing Joe Fields of doing anything underhanded. In those days alot of strange things happened. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1484 | From: Lansing,Mi,Ingham | Registered: Jan 2000 | IP: Logged JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted January 13, 2002 04:49 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After listening to theis album for the first time in several years, I too am convinced it's Larry. The rhythmic style of the comp & the timbre of the instrument sealed it for me. As for the possibility of this being rejected Verve work, remember that Mark on the Verve board has said that research for the unissued Grant dates has taken place, but that the current status of the tapes is "lost". Intresting possibilities ensue from that statement. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10291 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged Bill Fenohr Member Member # 592 posted January 13, 2002 05:24 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The plot thickens. Cobblestone was originally a subsiderary of Buddah/Kama Sutra which in the mid sixties was distributed by MGM, who also happened to own Verve at that time. Hum... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1484 | From: Lansing,Mi,Ingham | Registered: Jan 2000 | IP: Logged bigboy Member Member # 2546 posted January 13, 2002 05:31 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- However, due to the HORRIBLE sound quality, I find it difficult to believe it originated from Verve initially. The organ is distorting badly (to my ears this sounds like the leslie itself, not the recording process.) Also, the recording itself is muddy and non-distinct. Non-Vervelike. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 113 | From: | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged bertrand Member Member # 230 posted January 13, 2002 05:50 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill, Jim, It had occurred to me as well that Iron City might somehow be part of the lost Verve sessions, especially with the overlap of tunes (great minds think alike). Certainly the fact that Verve can't find them, and the link that Bill suggests add possibilities to that theory. However, as I posted in the unissued Grant Green Verve sessions thread, Ben Dixon seemd to be saying that these unissued Verve sessions had a singing group on it (I remember thinking to myself "oh no, not another Up With Donald Byrd kinda thing"). However, he did not say if this was on both sessions, or even on all tracks in one given session. At this point, I have to made a confession. Ben Dixon told me this all the way back in September. I immediately told him I would post this on the BN board as a topic for debate, but he asked me to hold off until he'd discussed this with Patton. Of course, he never did e-mail me back. My next step is to see if I can get a hold of either Patton, Joe Fields or Dixon through my (limited) contacts in the jazz world. Does anyone have any updates on John Patton's health? I don't want to disturb him with this if he is still in the hospital. I have been listening to Iron City this week-end, and I am *leaning* towards Larry. Still thinking about it... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted January 14, 2002 07:23 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A vocal group most likely would have been overdubbed later. That was common practice then and now. Dixon's reluctance to countenance open discussion of those Verve dates, and his desire to talk to Patton about the matter, although certainly innocent enough at face value, could certainly raise the suspicions of a less trusting soul than those found in this forum. As for the distortion, that is indeed the wild card in this matter. BUT - Hammond is a notoriously difficult axe to record just so, and even RVG, the master at Hammond recording, and whose studios Verve utilized a lot in those days, had his off days with the instrument. But to be honest, "Iron City" has NO sonic indications of being a Van Gelder recording, at least not any like I've heard. What do the discographies list as the location for those unissued Verve session? Tangental to that, though, the possibility of a rehearsal tape, or a demo of the material for whoever Verve would have had producing a Green session OR whoever might have been doing any vocal arrangements, might be a possibility to consider. I don't know if Verve routinely did such things or not. As has been noted, the lack of specific credits on the production end of things, along with a (perhaps deliberate?) mislabeling of one of the key players (I am now nearly certain that it's Larry Young) certainly is making "Iron City" into a mystery. Is there a story there? On a perhaps relevant note, what were the specific dates of Grant's two BN contracts? How big a gap, if any, was there where he had no label affiliation? And, Bertrand, is there a lead sheet/copyright form on file for "Iron City"? The Muse LP lists no composer or publisher. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10291 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged A Bleaden Member Member # 1341 posted January 14, 2002 01:00 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Interesting and ahving flcked across to the verve buletin I found it good news - perhaps more Green from a good period. As for Iron City - I remember I used to hear some tracks on a sampler without any info and assumed it was Larry Young because of the sound alone and then later when I found out the personel list I was a little surprised but then having heard the John Patton from recently and the later Blue Notes - ----------------------------------- I dunno! Andy I will go and have another listen now -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 157 | From: Glossop UK | Registered: Dec 2000 | IP: Logged bertrand Member Member # 230 posted January 16, 2002 09:56 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim, "Is there a lead sheet/copyright form on file for "Iron City"? The Muse LP lists no composer or publisher." Excellent question. There is no copyright for this tune, and as you said, the CD (and LP) are mum on the authorship of the title track. This was the reason I talked to Dixon and Patton. I wanted to find out who wrote the tune (perhaps one of them?). Patton ventured that he thought it was Green, and I believe he even asked me to sing it to him (this was August 11, my memory is sketchy, perhaps Stefan remembers?). To be honest, I think he really didn't remember it, which is no surprise, even he were on the date. But at no time did he say: "Oh, that was Larry Young, not me". This doesn't prove anything, of course. Dixon also thought it was Green, but immediately said that he thought Larry was the organist. The question is more than academic, of course: "Iron City" was used in a TV commercial recently (I can't remember the product), so there is some BIG money involved. Perhaps they used it *because* they thought it was Public Domain? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged bertrand Member Member # 230 posted January 16, 2002 10:19 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I need to amend the last post. Copyright card searches on Grant Green, John Patton, Ben Dixon, and Larry Young yielded no tune called "Iron City", nor any tune that I could not pin to either a released or unreleased recording (some of the rejected Grant Green BN sessions feature tunes that *were* copyrighted, but never recorded elesewhere. I remember at lease one off-hand: "Kinda Slick", which is a rejected track from the Blue John sessions). Note that I was not looking for "Iron City" when I did these searches (except the Green, of course) - what a shock I would have had if Larry Young had copyrighted it! One thing I didn't think of was to search under the song title; maybe it's a Harold Vick tune, just to name one of Green and Patton's accomplices at the time. A search at www.loc.gov yields the following lead, which may or not be promising: Registration Number: RE-26-912 Title: Iron City. By Lloyd Louis Brown. Claimant: acLloyd Louis Brown (A) Effective Registration Date: 14May79 Original Registration Date: 11Jun51; Original Registration Number: A56098. Original Class: A Now: a. I don't know what class A is, but I think it is *not* music (usually that's class E). b. I have no idea who LLoyd Brown is (anyone can chime in here with a statement like "He's an R & B guy Green and/or Patton played with in the fifties!"). If it were LLoyd Price, we would be onto something! Anyway, next time I'm at the Library (perhaps lunch tomorrow?), I'll do a card search on "Iron City". A lot of stuff does not appear in the computer database, since this is only for copyrights that have had some new activity (i.e., new registration or renewal) since 1977. My guess is that even if this tune were copyrighted in the sixties, it was probably not renewed. Also, any tune after 1965 or 1966 (I forget which) is automatically renewed. Interesting mystery that I hope I can crack! Of course, I'm partially motivated by the fact that "Iron City" is such a cool tune (I love the bass-like intro). One more crazy thought: The Prestige discography shows an unissued track from Young's Groove Street called "Here's Bill" (why did they not put it on the CD?). What if this were the same as "Iron City"? It's far fetched but not impossible. When the 1963 Larry Young session with Booker Ervin was finally issued, it turned out that the tune "Absotively Posalutely" was the same as "Back-Up" from Into Something. Pretty far-fetched theory, I know... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Jim R Member Member # 116 posted January 16, 2002 10:48 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bertrand, et al, I have a 1986 edition of the Verve labels discography, and so I thought I would toss some more info into the mix here, for whatever it may be worth (note the word "March" added to the "Iron City" title...). There are two separate listings of unreleased Grant Green sessions (all titles labeled "unissued"): Grant Green (g) + ? NYC, August 5, 1965 65VK427 Iron City March 65VK428 Angel 65VK429 Fat Judy 65VK430 Samba de Orfeu 65VK431 Chim Chim Cheree --------------------------- Grant Green (g) + ? September 1, 1965 65VK458 Things ain't what they used to be 65VK459 Moon over all 65VK460 I can't stop loving you 65VK461 High heel sneakers 65VK462 Blues train 65VK463 Sunday, Monday or always 65VK464 Fever 65VK465 Dream 65VK466 Uptown ------------------------- edit: Just noticed Bertrand's posted link (above) to this info... oh well, now it's visible here... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2300 | From: S.F. Bay Area | Registered: Jun 99 | IP: Logged Mike P Member Member # 152 posted January 16, 2002 12:05 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- bertrand, You are getting very warm. Where did Joe Fields and Don Schlitten work before leaving to form Cobblestone? Many Prestige masters disappeared in those days and a new label was started. Many interesting master show up on Cobblestone, Music and Xandau. I'm NOT accusing anyone of anything. BTW, If in fact the organist is Big John Patton, you may want to take a look at a Prestige recording session from March, 1 1966. It was George Braith's session and guess who the rhythm seesion was? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 232 | From: Moraga, CA USA | Registered: Jul 99 | IP: Logged kevin Member Member # 131 posted January 16, 2002 08:35 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This page is interesting: http://www16.brinkster.com/fitzgera/labels/muse.htm It contains a discography of the Muse label. It appears "Iron City" was most likely recorded in 1966 or 67. However, it would appear that it was not issued on LP until 1978 or later, as Muse MR-5120. If you review the link above, it's clear that the Muse label issued a hodge-podge of vault sessions beginning in the mid-70s. Some of these sessions were most certainly recorded for another label, perhaps one that was defunct by this point. In theory, this could be from 3 different labels: 1. Blue Note 2. Verve 3. Prestige The recording itself may give us some clues. Clearly Iron City is of substandard fidelity and is not IMHO a Van Gelder. Verve--not likely. They often employed Van Gelder during this period, and their sonics were usually impeccable. Although many Prestige recordings were done by Van Gelder, by the late 60's Don Schlitten began engineering quite a few. Most likely, Iron City was a Schlitten/Prestige recording job, as a lot of his work is muddy and somewhat confused. This could be a Prestige reject that somehow found its way into the hands of Muse 10 years after the fact. If I had to guess, I'd say this was recorded sometime in 66 for Prestige, but who knows... Maybe someone has compiled a sessionography of unissued Prestige sessions... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1170 | From: Dallas, TX | Registered: May 99 | IP: Logged Big Wheel Member Member # 510 posted January 16, 2002 11:16 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by kevin: If I had to guess, I'd say this was recorded sometime in 66 for Prestige, but who knows... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not having a discography/sessionography in front of me, I couldn't say for certain, but I highly doubt this theory. None of the three players in this trio, nor Patton, were recording as leaders for Prestige at the time. True, Grant was "on hiatus" around this period, if we are really to believe it's around 1966, so a Prestige session wouldn't be as much of an oddity at this time as compared to 1963-5. And Grant and Dixon did appear on George Braith's "Laughing Soul" on Prestige in March 1966, albeit with Patton on board (if AMG is to be believed). But still, this theory has to account for a number of questions: 1. Why not Blue Note or Verve? Did Green and Lion have a falling out? Did His Majesty King Funk leave a bad taste in the mouths of either Green or Verve? 2. Does the Green bio say anything about Grant's hiatus? If it implies that he stayed away from recording altogether, then it would contradict theories that this record was made in late 1966 or 1967. And that would seem to disprove any Prestige theory, since Green would almost certainly be recording for Blue Note if it were significantly earlier. 3. If this isn't a demo, as Jim speculates, why would Prestige let the session sit in the vaults for 12 or 13 years? Though it wasn't the Bob Weinstock era, weren't they notorious for putting out anything and everything? Did Prestige masters disappear BEFORE the sessions were ever issued? Maybe the session didn't come from any of these three, but was purchased by Cobblestone from an even smaller label that had gone out of business. Or maybe it was a demo. In any case, it's certainly a mystery. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 930 | From: Cambridge, MA, USA | Registered: Nov 1999 | IP: Logged Pete Fallico Junior Member Member # 167 posted January 17, 2002 07:54 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello to all, Ben Dixon told me years ago that it was in fact Larry Young on 'Iron City'. He was there and I believed him. After many listens, I became convinced. It seems to me that Ben's recollections of sessions are reliable having spoken to him about Baby Face Willette, early Jack McDuff and many others through the years. When I asked Big John about this, he was somewhat non-committal but seemed to agree with the notion that the record mis-identified him. Pete -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 6 | From: San Jose, CA USA | Registered: Sep 99 | IP: Logged bertrand Member Member # 230 posted January 17, 2002 10:22 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pete, Thanks for your message. I wish I had known there was a controversy when I met Big John in August - I would have asked him then. Do you know how John is doing? He had been in the hospital, then released, but I was told he was back in the hospital. Please let us know what you've heard. Thanks. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Pete Fallico Junior Member Member # 167 posted January 17, 2002 10:27 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John deals with some health issues but has a strong wife in Thelma who often keeps a short rope on him, if you catch my drift. I've drank with John when I know he's not suppose to drink... It's all about controlling that blood sugar...you deeg? John can be up or down... He's actually a very cool dude and I like being around him. Pete -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 6 | From: San Jose, CA USA | Registered: Sep 99 | IP: Logged Indestructible! Member Member # 918 posted February 06, 2002 02:22 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Bertrand, I think I recall you mentioning in another thread that you had some new information, and I'd really like to hear what you found out from Big John Patton concerning his role in this album (if any). So, I just thought I'd bring this thread up in the hopes that you call fill us in. BTW, I hope Big John is feeling better! Cheers, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 134 | From: Los Angeles, CA | Registered: Jun 2000 | IP: Logged bertrand Member Member # 230 posted February 06, 2002 02:42 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shane, I don't have an answer from Patton yet - the tape is going out to him tomorrow, and he will listen and tell us if it's him or Larry. There is some new information, though. I saw organist Bill Heid yesterday and asked him about this session. He says it was recorded in Pittsburgh (makes sense based on the title) and produced by some scam artist named Itzy Klein (sp?). He says they probably each got $50 bucks for the session. And, of course, I asked him who he thought the organist was. He was categoric that it was Patton! And Bill hung out with Larry extensively... The mystery continues... I'll clue you guys in after I've talked to Patton again. Give me a week or two. I know, the suspense is killing me too. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged bertrand Member Member # 230 posted February 19, 2002 07:32 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just a quick update, but no answer yet. I sent a tape of 'Iron City' to John Patton a little over a week ago. I haven't heard back from him yet (although I stupidly deleted one message at home without listening to it). I will wait a few more days and then call him... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged B3-er Member Member # 407 posted February 19, 2002 11:38 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is fascinating: I will need to listen to this record again. I heard "High Heel Sneakers" on the radio when this re-issue first came out on 32Jazz and thought "Whoa, unissued Grant and Larry that I don't have WHOO HOO!!!!" and then when the announcer said it was Patton, I was very confused. Interesting!!!! Heid says it's Patton; Fallico says it's Young. THE PLOT THICKENS! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 737 | From: Lansing, MI USA | Registered: Sep 1999 | IP: Logged B3-er Member Member # 407 posted February 19, 2002 01:47 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, upon listening to this on my arrival home, within 10 seconds of the first track I knew it was Larry Young. No doubt. No question. No other answer. Proof? The lick in the organ solo on "High Heeled Sneakers" that starts in the low end of the organ and spirals up, using forths. That's Larry all the way. In Samba de Orpheus, the comping is all Larry. Listen to "Plaza de Toros" from Into Somethin' and then listen to this track. Plus the little turnaround that he throws in at the end of the 'B' section of the head at the front of the tune (about 41 measures in). That's Larry all the way. Every other track has blatant examples that I won't list here. It's Larry. I think what confuses the listener is the sound of the organ itself. It's very gritty and distorted and nasty sounding, which is not the way Larry usually sounds. I believe this is because whoever engineered this session recorded the Leslie cabinet of the organ. I have determined through experimentation of my own Hammond that Larry achieved his very distinct sound by recording the organ direct and NOT through a Leslie. In other words, on Larry's Blue Note releases I think Rudy must've hooked up the preamp of the Hammond directly to the mixing console (or tape machine or whatever). That's why his sound is so uncolored, pure, and bright. I've recorded my own B3 this way and when I played those patented Larry Young space chords, it sounds JUST like Larry Young. Even with the Leslie completely stopped (ie, not spinning at all, even slowly) and very well-mic'd, it does not sound like the sound on Larry's records. That's because the Leslie speaker colors the sound immensely which is great because it sounds groovy! But Larry's sound is completely different. You'll notice on his Blue Note records that he never, ever, ever has a spinning Leslie. Even when he pulls out the drawbars and gets that big organ sound. I believe that's because he didn't record through one. The Iron City disc is defintately recorded through a Leslie. The distortion on the organ is the result of over-driving the Leslie. I'm still interested in what Patton has to say, although even if he says he played on it, I won't believe it! It's Larry Young!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 737 | From: Lansing, MI USA | Registered: Sep 1999 | IP: Logged kevin Member Member # 131 posted February 19, 2002 08:41 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- interesting stuff. so was this date actually recorded earlier than we thought? maybe in 65, instead of 67? what label recorded it? was this ever issued in the 60s? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1170 | From: Dallas, TX | Registered: May 99 | IP: Logged Duke Pearson Member Member # 1697 posted March 20, 2002 09:05 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When the sad news about John Patton reached me I instantly remembered this discussion from a month back. Did your investigations lead any further, Bertrand? If you are allowed to reveal anything you might have found out it would be greatly appreciated. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 858 | From: Stockholm, Sweden | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged bertrand Member Member # 230 posted March 20, 2002 02:35 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John probably received the tape of Iron City that I sent him the day before he played at Smoke. Had I known how things would turn out, I would have tried to get it to him earlier... I knew John was in the hospital and kept hoping he would recover. I got to know him a little in the past year, and my life was greatly enriched by this. There are still other leads. Bill Heid knew the producer of Iron City, and knew it was recorded in Pittsburgh. Maybe we can track some information down that way. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Joe Member Member # 118 posted March 20, 2002 07:46 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For whatever its worth (probably nothing), the organist on IRON CITY sure sounds like Larry Young to me too. The comping and solo on "Samba De Orpheus" in particulary seems VERY Young-like to me. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3905 | From: Dallas, TX USA | Registered: Apr 99 | IP: Logged kevin Member Member # 131 posted April 23, 2002 06:19 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I finally picked up this date. The organist is definitely Larry Young. No doubt about it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1170 | From: Dallas, TX | Registered: May 99 | IP: Logged