Big Beat Steve

Rust DOES give the original releases (and apparently often the UK releases, i.e. US RCA Victor + UK HMV, plus certain others form the same period). so you wil be able to see all the orignal 78rpm couplings (and in case of previously unreleased entries that were first released in the LP era the original LP issue wil be given - e.g. in the case of transcriptions made by the John Kirby Sextet that saw several LPs worth of transcriptions first released on the Collector's label in the 60s). And basically Rust is not THAT different from the system used in the Garner discography in your link. Except that the later reissues listed UNDER the session entries are not included. As for how long those online discographies will remain up ... good question, but ... ... I know why I have an entire ring binder crammed full with printouts of Swedish jazz discography put online on visarkiv.se ... precisely for that reason!

As a matter of curiosity, was IS your age group? As for the "rest" of your post, I somewhat disagree that there was that little jazz in the "dance band" era. Of course a lot of jazz of the swing era was pop music but that was what made it so appealing to the status of jazz overall at that time. And of course not all pop from that era was jazz, and you have to distinguish between swinging dance bands such as the Tony Pastor band I named before and corn like Guy Lombardo or Horace Heidt, etc. Though even some cornier bands could swing pretty well on rare occasions, but that was more an interlude. I'd also say there is more jazz to Tommy Dorsey than one would imagine at first hearing (but you will have to listen ...). And discovering the jazz content does indeed become a bit more difficult if you focus on the singers and vocals. Which is why (among WHITE bands) I tend towards vocals by Tony Pastor, Louis Prima or Butch Stone and their ilk from that period ... BTW, even Duke Ellington (to name just one whose jazz credentials nobody will dismiss though they fall into the same big band era too) did regularly play for dancers too in the 30s/40s so certainly was not just a "concert hall" band. As for other sources of documentation (not discographies but biographies to put things into context), I suppose you have the books by George T.Simon and Leo Walker?

What you describe as your main interests in the post-Rust area is going to be hard to find indeed in later jazz discographies because quite a few of those vocalists and arrangers/bandleaders are on the fringes of jazz or outside jazz in a "somewhat" stricter sense of the word. So many discographers don't even opt for complete discographies of this kind of artists but include only those recordings with closer jazz ties (e.g. if the backing orchestras/groups are more jazz-oriented, etc.). Beyond the "Rust era", I still use my Jepsen discography books regularly for the basic information and then do cross-checks in a CD-ROM edition of the Bruyninckx discogrpahy. The Tom Lord discography is waaaay beyond my financial means (particularly if you want to keep it updated) and offers little added value over the contents of the earlier discographies in my main areas of interest (which essentially comprise recordings up to, say, the early to mid-60s, and for later reordings I don't need complete discographies but usually find what I want to know on the internet ;)).

No idea if this offer posted here a week ago is still current ... ... but it might be worth a try. As for recommending any specific issues, I have the 4th edition and also rfer to it fairly often. If you can live with the fact that it usually gives only the "period" 78rpm isses and not other issues or later reissues (as Bruyninckx etc. do) then it is a very useful reference book - even today. What I sometimes do find irritating (but this is probably due to the persona of Brian Rust himself and his personal preferences) is that it goes into amazing detail in 20s (or at any rate PRE-swing era) bands, including many semi-jazz bands that are of rather marginal interest to "hot" jazz fans, but the same depth of coverage doesn't always seem to be there in the swing era and particularly big bands. I find it strange, for example, that he totally ignores the Tony Pastor band whose early recordings do fall within the 1942 time frame and whose jazz content I for one consider higher than that of many 20s dance bands included there (seems like "8 bars of hot soloing" already qualified in the 20s for being included in the book whereas you had to offer much more in the 30s and early 40s to qualify - a bit skewed IMO ...). ..

Yes this WAS disturbing. Did not get the news until the morning after - luckily, because my not quite 16-year old son went to (local) Metal rock concerts both on Friday and Saturday night. Cautioning him before he set off for Saturday night was surreal enough, but two nights?? If you realize that the band at the Bataclan venue had Metal in their band name (though apparently their style of rock was not conected to it) and you then hear that those muslim scumbags claim their attack against that venue was against a place where "hundreds of heathens feast on pornography and sin" and so on, then this really, really gets creepy. Sangrey's theory on just turning the lights off doesn't work under these circumstances either. These precivilizationist hoods just were out to open fire at ANYBODY. You can accomplish that target even in total darkness. And it definitely is no laughing matter if they happen to aim at each other by mistake after dozens of innocents have been butchered.

Thanks for your links and illustrations, Erwbol. Hope this will get a few of those do-gooders out there to wake up and face the realities ....

Good to see Richard Vacca's book mentioned. I think it is one that unfortuntely is not given much thought when regional jazz histoires are evoked. It took me a while to really get into the book - his coverage of the pre-war years somehow drag on a little, as if the author could not really connect to the subject matter. Maybe there were too few major acts to cover (which would not have kept others from doing in-depth coverage - see "Before Motown" on Detroit, for example) but once the history reaches the post-war years the story really gets off the ground and I found the book hard to put down (though I have no personal connection to Boston whatsoever, obviously ... but rather see the interest of books like this in filling gaps in the history of jazz by covering regions off the usual places).

More impressions - not re- the Jutta Hipp box but the MOD label box (which arrived today here) and therefore re- the operations of the Be!" label as I perceive them: Very, VERY nice finishing, presentation and packaging of the box set (not the kind of glueish nonsense you seem to get from Mosaic ). Overall nothing at all to fall short of the work of box set reissue labels such as Bear Family IMO. I'd post a few photographs to give an impression (maybe will do so later) but the pics on the Be! website might give an idea anyway. The repro vinyls show a lot of attention to detail too (and do sound good indeed ;)). I happen to have an original copy of the Bill Russo LP and the facsimile of this reissue really is a very close match (and no, I won't be complaining about the rose color of the label being a little bit darker on the reissue ;)). The book is impressive too, even for those who have the period mags that a lot of concert and record reviews are pulled from. A lot of key persons from the German jazz scene are credited in the acknowledgments (including some who no doubt would have had the leverage of blocking or at least hampering this release if it had had a blatantly bootleggish ripoff approach about it) so it must have received blessings from many sides. Do you get value for money? In the end it's up to each one to decide for himself. I'd calculate like this: I paid 219 euros for the set. We get 5 10in LPs and 6 45 EPs plus 4 CDs. For niche-market vinyl reissues (i.e. including those occupying just a niche within the "jazz niche" at large), 20 euros retail price for a reissue LP are not totally unheard of here. And then, say, 15 euros for a facsimile EP. Which would add up to 190 euros. Which leaves 30 euros for the book, the facsimile label poster and the CDs. Cheap all in all? No. Excessive? Not totally over the top, compared to what you see elsewhere. Not that I'd count on many of those from 'cross the pond who smell a bootleg rat whenever some European reissue deal comes up (even if from the Public Domain era) revising their opinions from the ground up in these "debates" of (alleged) ripoffs, but tell me - when and where have you seen INDIVIDUALLY owned U.S. reissue companies last embark on projects like this (no, 20s blues doesn't count!)? Not that all is perfect, and not wanting to nitpick, but there are a few minor complaints. I did spot at least one error in the discography (incorrect reference to a previous - period - issue of the music on a label other than MOD) and one unclear label release reference which looks like an actual release but apparently wasn't - and they persistently spell that Italian label "Carish" (I know "Carisch" doesn't sound very Italian, but still ...), . And since it will probably be (or has already been been) pointed out by others that the contents of the CDs go beyond the contents of the vinyl and include "unissued" concert recordings, this isn't quite so. These recordings have been released before as an accompanying CD to a book called "Jazz in Köln". The book is still available secondhand for those who are dying to get it and many potential buyers of this box set probably own it anyway (me included, yes ) so already have that music. So this is a bit of a cheap way out of adding "bonus" stuff and a pity that precisely the tracks already released there have been recycled here, considering that a lot of other tunes were recorded at one of those concerts (titles and playing times are given in the discography so can it really be so that all those others have been lost?). But these are minor points and other reissuers are probably "guilty" of cutting corners far more. So - yes, a very nicely done job and not one that reeks of cheapo bootlegging. Particularly since this is not likely to be a major seller everywhere.

Back from another secondhand record clearout sale at one of about two brick-and-mortar shops that still handle vinyl here. Each LP went for 2.50 euros (some even less). Apart from a load of 70s/80s reissue LPs mostly by the big'uns (mostly Ellington and Armstrong for me - stuff off the obvious ones so some gaps were conveniently filled now, including a 2-LP set with the Duke's 1940 Fargo, N.D. concert), some nice original/early pressings from the 50s/early 60s cropped up too: A bunch of 10-inchers at 2 euros each, most in surprisingly clean condition: - Erroll Garner "Plays for Dancing" (Dutch Phillips) - Benny Goodman "Swing Session" (Carnegie Hall excerpts) (Dutch Phillips) - have the music of course but that period cover ... - Teddy Wilson Trio and Gerry Mulligan Quartet (DSC - Geman record club edition) - an oddball: Sidney Bechet "en 16 tours" (French Vogue) - to the best of my knowledge the only jazz record apart from that handful of Prestiges ever released for 16rpm turntable speeds. Had that record already but now have a vinyl in slightly better condition. And the seocnd copy no doubt will find a taker who'll appreciate that kind of oddity ... Now for the 12-inchers. - Eddie Bert "Modern Moods" (Jazztone 12-inch) - Louis Armstrong "At the Crescendo Vol. 1" (UK Brunswick) - Stephane Grappelly "Django" with Pierre Cavalli, L. Petit, G. Pedersen and Daniel Humair (Barclay) - Lionel Hampton "The Mess Is Here" (Bertelsmann) German 1958 recordings issued by the record club. Already have the record but with a cover in rather worse condition, but that poorer cover is the fold-out version whereas this pressing has a standard jacket. Probably VERY slightly later pressing. Both records in comparable condition. Now which pressing do I keep? Probably both ... And then some where the covers are just so-so (ah, those U.S. cardboard covers just can't take wear... ) but the vinyl is distinctly better: - Ella Fitzgerald "Mack The Knife" (U.S. Verve) - The Mastersounds "Play Compositions by Horace Silver" (U.S. World Pacific) - Manny Albam & His Jazz Greats "West Side Story" (one of those period pressing oddities - which seem to have existed with quite a few labels - where the locally pressed vinyl, in this case German Coral, was sold inside the thick U.S. (Coral) sleeve) Anyway, not a bad scoop at 2.50 euros maximum each, I think ...

What or who is it that you would call "fillers"? The less obvious artists/tracks? Isn't that a "problem" with lots of the larger boxes, including those of major artists/labels, up to BN or Trane and all their epigones? Nobody turns out only top notch material all the time and there almost invariably is a share of "also rans" (unless you are in an inveterate fan, which is who this kind of boxes usually is aimed at anyway - and diehards willo find something of interest in almost anybody and anything - which IMO is a valid point as long as THEY are satisfied, and if it wasn't so exceedingly obscure singles that at the time sold only some 100 or 200 copies wouldn't fetch those top dollars now ) YMMV (widely) indeed. ;)

Had no idea either that he was still around. R.I.P. and thanks for all those 1947 Just Jazz concert recordings and some mighty fine Wardell Gray preserved for posterity!

Thanks for all this info, Onxidlib, about how BE! Records basically works. In fact the gist of what you say was confirmed to me yesterday by a friend of mine who also is in a position to know at least to some extent. Suffice to say to others reading this that if you press your vinyl in Germany by a German company (Pallas), as BE! Records do, then GEMA (the instance taking care of mechanical copyright fees etc. here) will be involved and you cannot avoid paying up for your releases because GEMA will check on what copyrights (if any) there are. So once the GEMA has an eye on you the musicians' copyright question cannot be avoided anymore either. That the GEMA system is not a very fair one and the money you pay to them does not fully benefit the small or obscure artists (least of all those for whose releases you pay) but is distributed in a pretty odd way that tends to make the big ones bigger is another matter of discussion but this is beyond the control of ANYBODY releasing/reissuing records. Anyway, I'll be looking forward to receiving the MOD box set which should arrive any day now (had found a source where the price was a bit lower so took the plunge after all). P.S. One detail about your initial post, Onxidlib, though: I doubt that the copyright protection in Luxembourg is different form the "rest" of the EU, at least not according to what several online souces from Luxembourg say.

Not that likely if that many "name" artists are involved that are either still around or do have an estate right here where these records are being produced, pressed and distributed. Too hot to handle if there was anything blatantly seedy. The jazz scene isn't that big here and it IS transparent enough. And the "new" European copyright laws that establish a non-movable cutoff date of what remains within the copyright at the year 1962 have been discussed enough here to be known to everybody. I see you have objections about all this as a matter of principle. Tell me, then, what is your interpretation of why there is the mention "Not for sale outside Japan" on those Japanese reissues that forumists around here (NON-Japanese, of course, and resident outside of Japan) buy up by the PETERBILT load all the time? Could it be that originally they just aren't licensed for sale outside the island as per whatever royalty agreement (if any) has been worked out for their (domestic) reissue down there? Isn't it about time to cut out those double standards in discussions like this that turn in circles only and lead nowhere anyhow? Anyway ... maybe I'll get a chance to grab the MOD box set and see if and to what extent the Gigi Campi estate has given its blessing to that undertaking. Doing a 120-page book on 11 original releases takes some sleuthing to unearth stuff that doesn't just "circulate" around.

I'm talking about pre-1960 stuff (which is what the MOD and Jutta Hipp and rockabilly reissues are all about) and it is ONLY THOSE that I am judging (admittedly mainly because those are about the only ones I'd be seriously interested in beyond what I already have). I won't be judging the others/more recent ones and if he gets himself into hot water about those because there WOULD be ground for legal action then he's had it coming to him and I won'tbe pitying him. I was surprised to see the Barney Wilen title because I was under the impression there were other reissues of that LP around. OTOH if, as you say, no owner would have been interested in properly licensing those titles anyway then this raises certain other questions. Anyway, looking at his catalog, royalty payments or not, this does not look like the typical "throw-together-and-run" stuff that someone would press up to make big bucks on the royalty-free grey label market. The work that went into these reissues goes beyond what even legit labels would do (let's face it, they just couldn't care less, and even that is putting it kindly ...). Cf. the MOD box set, or the Joki Freund LP (very nicely done cover artwork taking up the Michael Naura Brunswick LP artwork, looks almost like a facsimile reissue. Too bad I have a mint copy of the MUZA LP and a very clean copy of the Jazztone 45 too, and I can live without the two remaining tracks, I guess ;). Or the very fitting artwork of the "Modern at the German Jazz Festival 1966" LP sets. As these are unreleased recordings, how would he have gotten those for release (and why didn't anybody else tackle them?)? Enough of those name artists are still around (Doldinger etc.) so if this had been an all-out bootleg ripoff deal the German jazz scene would be far too small to avoid having the lawyers breathe down your neck.

Very nice, and one of those cases where you wonder if you still ought to be tempted even if you already have about 80% of the contents in other forms. Decidedly there seems to be much more to Be! Records than you'd think at first sight. They have made a splash here with their regional Rockabilly (Texas and Michigan so far) box sets (though there have been discussions about the digital sources of part of the recordings used) and this is where the people behind the label come from (I know the guys fleetingly). Amazing there are others who straddle the fence from rockabilly to 50s/60s Eurojazz. I wasn't aware of their MOD Records box set either. As for the "licensing department " angle, all the Jutta Hipp material obviously is in the Public Domain in EUROPE, so that's that ... And at least in the rockabilly section, with their box sets they have gone to great lengths there in documenting recordings that NONE of the U.S. guys or labels have seen fit to touch to any great extent for decades, let alone reissue coherently. It took Europeans to cover that ground (starting with Cees Klop from (Dutch) White Label Records). And even though a good deal of the material now on the MOD label box set has been reissued on CD on the Jazz Realities label some 15 years ago you've got to hand it to them - they went the whole way and left no stone unturned, it seems. Not something some shady label out to make a fast buck would do that way. How many diehard MOD label fans (keen to shell out for the whole package) can be out there after all?

Never mind the legs. Moot point. Anyway, "it ain't the meat, it's the motion ..." As for what came first and what impresses you more or less, YMMV. I remember my first exposure to this kind of setting vocals to solos came via Manhattan Transfer (what else in those late 70s ... ) but I had heard the actual instrumental recordings and solos before, and I cannot remember that I liked the vocals any less. Except that sometimes they appeared a little gimmicky to me (nothing wrong with that either, you don't always have to take in your jazz in graaaaave earnest and high-brow seriousness - in fact, not often, really ...). Later on I discovered where MT had come from (and learned to appreciate the "originals" and others in that vein, e.g. Eddie Jefferson).

Taken in moderate doses - fine with me. As for some lyrics attempting to be hip in a contrived way, I tend to see them as a sign of the times and in the context of the times and all of a sudden they usually become quite bearable ...

Dude, I was not yet 20 either! And apart from the fact that I could turn off those stations at will too, I did not dissect the music that much either, I just saw and heard that that those shlocky 50s-60s background music orchestras were terrible company for anybody resembling a jazz artist. The only thing I DID think about was what on earth they pulled all those orchestras from the mothballs for - and who'd listen to that all day in those years in the mid-to late 70s on THAT station. And all this because I used to go to great lengths to search for stations and programs that did NOT just doodle off the chart fare off the days but specialist programs for those into jazz, blues, pre-1960 r'n'r etc. Not a matter of rebellion but of musical tastes off the beaten tracks of the day's charts. And then you come across a station where they doodle "Theme From A Summer Place" or "Song From Moulin Rouge" and all that stuff and you wonder WTF??? And JAMAL's piano sounds sure got drowned there in the mix. That's all but has left a lasting impression. Maybe what they played by him really were those "For Airplay Only" records ...

Interesting and welcome for this season (and the ghostly weather here today) ... But except for the title word I cannot quite see the "Ghost of a Chance" connection with the subject matter, contrary to including Wardell Gray and his mysterious death (though at first sight I had wondered about that selection too, until I read your explanation). Wouldn't some music from "theme albums" for the occasion have been fitting too? Such as Sadik Hakim's "Witches, Goblins etc."

Yes, great story. But still that particular AFN FM mix really was wearing you out. Learning standards that way (or hearing age-old hits you at that time mainly remembered having seen in PRE-r'n'r pop chart hit listings) may be fine but if the standards are drowned in saccharine, string-overloaded arrangements by the likes of Hugo "Funny how the Yanks pronounce this un-yankish name" Winterhalter or "Where did your first name go" Mantovani etc etc. then all this is just a bit too much - at least to this listener who at that time, though not yet 20, on the one hand had already been very much aware of and fascinated by both pre- and post-war swing and jazz big bands and therefore had enough MEATIER (yet still perfectly accessible) stuff to cut your teeth into, and on the other hand abhorred the pre-r'n'r or "adult" pop chart fare. And Jamal, though pleasant to listen to really fit too easily into the stream of sounds and therefore, to me anyway, his jazz interest was drowned out in that program (which did indeed hold the occasional jazz surprise, which is why I sometimes listened to it). And I still wonder what the target AFN listener audience was for that program at that time. Those who'd have embraced those sounds wholeheartedly must have retired from active duty by that time and gone back home. And the young GIs had either endless streams of country/rock programs (often rather interesting to us, BTW), the R&B (aka soul/funk) charts as well as "Gozar" for the Latinos on AFN AM. So ...? Anyway .. that Jamal debate reminds me of a lot of other piano trio LPs from the 50s/60s that tended to get short shrift in Down Beat reviews. And possiblx even today. Seems like the court is still out on how approachable or even nightclub-ish or lounge-ish you can get without seeing your jazz credentials tarnished, and a consensus probably will never come to pass (maybe for the better because tastes differ ..).

Doesn't play here either (performance copyright issues, as usual when the Big Ones among the label rights holders are involved). But never mind - I've got several LP's worth of TD music from those post-war years (including the original Hep LP release of "At The Fat Man's") so can imagine what else there is on those CDs. A band that wasn't as old hat as its name might have led some to believe.

It does. But if he gets programmed on radio in between Percy Faith, Hugo Winterhalter, Nelson Riddle, Mantovani and similar easy listening acts from way back (no kidding! Happened here over and over again on AFN FM which at that time - late 70s - went on for hours and hours on a strict background elevator music diet - "Music to soothe your drilll sergeant to??" ) and indeed he segues seamlessly in and out in between the other acts then you do get second thoughts about the jazz content.

No idea why Pt. 2 became the hit. To the best of my recollections (saw a review of the 45 the other day in a period copy of Orkester Journalen) the actual single of course had "Topsy Pt. 1" b/w "Topsy Pt. 2". So Pt. 1 very much was there but somehow fell by the wayside as far as the charts were concerned.

Same experience here as with Teasing's initial statement. I've been buying vinyl since 1975 (age 15), this slackened off a bit in the first half of the 80s (due to shortage of student funds), gained momentum again thereafter, peaked in the 90s and 2000s, first during the shift towards CDs when many unloaded their vinyl at secondhand shops, and later on when some local record stores got in HUGE secondhand collections (allegedly 100,000 items in one case) and sold off lots of the "older" styles (i.e. pre-hard bop) fairly cheaply for a time. These sources have dried up in recent years so my vinyl buying has slowed down again (shelf space is running out anyway ;)). The way I observe it, apart from obvious top price sellers such as Blue Notes and some other collectable labels, older repressings of collectable records tend to go up in price here too, as do Japanese reissues. Liberty (and similar) pressings of BNs remain lower-priced than earlier deep groove pressings, of course, but considering what they are and ought to be treated like, they look expensive to me. Overall, a lot of older/earlier on labels a bit under the radar as well as Japanese pressings can stil be found in the 30 to 50 euros price bracket but often this still seems too expensive to me for what these records are. And except when foreign collectors come in on one of their buying sprees (like I did in London in the 90s) they seem to sit in the racks for ages at the one local recrod store that still has a huge vinyl section (including jazz). Strangely their stock of swing-era and 40s recordings has diminished considerably in recent times. Maybe those retro-minded lindy hop dancers (there is a small but thriving local scene) do buy vinyl again after all and don't just do CDs and downloads?

Agreed. BTW, that Japanese Prestige book I mentioned earlier lists that tune as "Chasin The Bongo" under LP 171 but as "Chasin The Boogie" under the 78rpm entry. Label misprint on the 78? Anybody got a copy of that one? I just wonder what made Jepsen list this as "Tea For Two". The theme IS very similar but how did that title come about? Maybe Jepsen never saw the actual 78s and was just given tape dubs to listen to (and to identify because the track titles were omitted?). Funny things happened to discographers in those pioneering days. Neither Jepsen nor others could have listened to or even seen all of the records they included but had to rely on contributors. In some cases they seem to have given him entire listings of labels that had jazz-related R&B recordings but nobody seems to have bothered to listen to the records to filter out the actually relevant ones. And so some full-fledged rockabilly records found their way into Jepsen's books (just because they were on labels that had lots of R&B, such as Sun)!