Big Beat Steve

Don't know, but Jack McVea did. Man, I sure wish they had a band like the sax gang in the video at Eurodisney near Paris where we'll be for a couple of days' family vacation in May.

I read Bill Crow's account of that tour a while ago when the link to that site came up in conjunction with another story and, to put it mildly, I was baffled. If you take all this in along with Terry Gibbs' tales of "The Fog" in his autobiography as well as Milt Bernhart's account of the 1950 Las Vegas stint of the BG band that included Wardell Gray you are beginning to ask youself questions ... a LOT of questions, in fact. People (including musicians) rarely ever are saints, but THAT ... ??

Very fitting, Dave. Especially since actor Klaus Kinski would have fitted in nicely with Zorn and Jarrett. He was a great artist but, as is often the case, a very eccentric one, and the tales of how he did everybody verbally in who happened not to suit his whims are numerous.

Did John Zorn and Keith Jarrett ever play in a jazz group together? Might have billed themselves as "The Irascibles". :D Anyway, knowing what "Zorn" means in German (where the roots of this word comes from) I am not really that surprised by his outbursts.

I can't find anything really wrong with "The Swinging Guitar" but maybe that's because I usually listen to it along with other of Tal's Verves and I take any differences (if there are any) just as differences that are bound to happen with human beings. But I'll listen closer next time and try to analyse a bit more ... The Fuerst sets are maybe not the ideal comparison, even if the lineup is the same. As you know after-hours private jam sessions are a setting that's not necessarily comparable with studio productions.

Reading this, I guess I will have to do a bit of aural comparison later on. In the 80s we got a lot of German pressings of those Prestige/Fantasy/OJC facsimile LP reissues (Mikulski or ZYX or others; distributors' addresses given at the bottom of the back cover). Didn't notice any significant difference in general sound quality vs. the U.S. OJC pressings. I have a few Carreres among them too; don't remember if they overall sound thinner. All in all I always found the OJC reissues very good value for money - just like the slightly earlier "not yet OJC" reissues of Prestige LPs. Their prices do not seem to have inflated unduly around here (to the extent that vinyl is still carried by the (secondhand) shops).

EXCELLENT disc indeed! Though I'd not agree with the "Les Paul" thing you mention. Barney Kessel would be more like it. In fact the liner notes point towards that too. Nothing against Les Paul but this disc has more than just virtuosity. It swings - to the extent that even a couple of diehard Western Swing fans around here who had heard the LP complained it was just too jazzy for them. Oh well, you can't have 'em all, and taste-wise they came from the hillbilly side of Western Swing anyway...

No, they don't. No Whitey Mitchell anywhere in the lineups of the two Sutton groups that produced those recordings. The bassist on both sessions is one Mark Trail, and no other Sutton recordings are known to discographers. The Whitey Mitchell LP (his only one) on ABC Paramount was done about 2 years later.

And yet she saw fit to reissue "Don't get it twisted" by the International Sweethearts on her Rosetta label. :D Anyway, the music she reissued on her label certainly wasn't bad and filled a gap. So what stuff (and where) did she put to paper outside her label liner notes?

If you want to really appreciate the music, by all means take it in by viewing the movie. Listening to it alone is fine and the music can stand on its own but obviously you only get the complete picture (literally...) if you see the movie. But then again the impact of the movie may well be different here to us Continental Europeans as the 50s Paris setting conjures up images that may be differ from those experienced in the USA.

Yes - a bit steep for a reissue CD, even with the value of the $$$ dwindling right now. Missed original LP's of this a couple of times but will keep searching (including reissues).

Speaking of Steve Lacy, his early recordings on Jaguar with the Dick Sutton band (reissued as "The Complete Jaguar Sessions") just left me speechless when I first heard them (after having bought the twofer on a whim as I figured that combination MUST be interesting). Probably some of the strangest "free Dixieland" ever made (but very accessible and enjoyable, and the soprano sax sound is just perfect for that combination).

I'd be pleased to (for a couple of other Jazz Oracle reissues too) but can ANYBODY tell me why their Dutch distributor, TIMELESS Records steadfastly refuses to acknowledge, let alone answer my mails inquiring about shipping costs? And this even after sending several mails? (They are closest to Germany among all non-US distributors, hence my inquiry with them) Has anybody had any dealings with them?

Go visit him on AAJ (or has he departed there too?) :D

That recent thread about "Moten Swing" prompted me to give Terry Gibbs' version issued on his "Lauching A New Band" LP released on Mercury in 1959 a listen again. I have the Trip Jazz TLP 5545 reissue of that album. Putting Side 1 of the record on, something odd I had not really noticed before (or forgotten) became evident (had not listened to it for a long while; and if so, only Side 2 for his excellent version of "Jumping At The Woodside"): Instead of the 6 tracks starting with "Opus 1" that are supposed to be there, Side 1 of that particular reissue inlcudes only 3 lengthy tracks by a trumpet-led quintet recorded live at some club. The first track is "Caravan" (NOT the Brown/Geller All Stars version also reissued on Trip) and then 2 ballads (the first one of which is an oft-reorded standard but I just cannot put the finger on the title right now). I have no idea if the entire pressing run of this reissue has this fault but is there anybody who has this reissue and noticed the same discrepancy and is anybody who's heard this able to identify the actual recordings on Side 1? I have a suspicion but the discographies do not bear this out so I am sort of stuck ... Thanks!

Well, Gents, if you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge the existence of that "Memorial" CD on Fresh Sound you will of course deprive yourselves of that session - because it's on that very CD! I've listened to the entire CD once again last night, and as somebody said before me, her playing is very agreeably swinging all the way through, and not feminine at all. In a way she has a somewhat harder touch than her West Coast surroundings might imply; the Feather "Encyclopedia" where Bud Powell and and Horace Silver are cited as her influences is quite correct. BTW; as for the Dot label, I'd be interested in finding a source for an affordable reissue of Eddie Costa's "House of Blue Lights" LP too. (Or do I have to check the Fresh Sound catalog closer? )

What do you expect? Tal "evolving" in the sense of turning out glib, soft pop/funk pap like Messrs. Montgomery/Green/Benson? :D For somebody who'd been virtually off the scene for over 10 years his "Return" album certainly showed he still had his chops totally intact, and the same goes for what I've heard of his Concords. No mean feat if you consider the high level he had achieved in the 50s. (P.S. I prefer the Verves etc. from the 50s too)

No doubt about that. I read it with great interest and anticipation and more or less in one go, but as I advanced the urge to ask the author "Now where's the MUSIC in the book?" became stronger and stronger. It could have been a great book (and it partially still is) but all that "second-wave" ideology is pointless the way it is presented here. Wonder when another "second wave feminist" reading this is going to accuse us all of male chauvinism?

That band is given some coverage in the "Swing Shift" book mentioned above but unfortunately that band remained unrecorded. It operated in the 40s. This link might also provide some basic info on all-girl bands: http://nfo.net/usa/females.html

Yes of course ... a doubt may remain and nobody can really prove it either way. Though I think Sonny Berman is not the ideal example of a similar case. I remember having read countless accounts (many of them fairly old) where he was named as one of the typical and more tragic examples of somebody dying from drug abuse among the young jazzmen of that era. So what happened seems to have been a fairly open secret. (Now how did Tiny Kahn actually die? After all he certainly was "heavy set at a young age" too. Terry Gibbs talked about him in his autobiogpraphy but I don't remember the details.) Anyway ... what happened did happen and does not detract from the music.

So it was. And this seems to be the most detailed account of her pasing that's ever been published in any easily accessible source. Other sources just speak of heart problems. And I cannot imagine a huge, decade-long cover-up has been at work here. So no need to pin every early death of a jazzperson of those times down to drugs. (But wasn't it the music that was to be focus of this thread? )

Only if you think you have to adopt someone else's position on this artist and make it your own. Otherwise, enjoy (or don't enjoy) him on your own terms and let somebody else be less enthusiastic about him on that somebody's terms. Not everybody in the history of jazz makes groundbeaking or trailblazing music all the time and yet he can be enjoyed on his very own terms and YET people can exchange views about it. And nothing else is going on here, I think (or is anybody proselytizing for or against S.H. here? ) Reading this again I see Dan Gould's latest post and find I actually am saying the same thing. So I tend to agree with Dan. There is no universal truth in individual assessments like this. Even if the common consensus were that this artist is overrated, in the end it boils down to personal taste and to the eternal question of what one wants to see in the music involved.

Yes indeed! I forgot about these (especially the two Jam Session versions). And the Jay McShann All Stars version of 1972 (feat. Buddy Tate and Julian Dash) isn't bad either.

Yes, I think I see what you mean and coming to think of it, some articles in "Jazz Monthly" of those years (late 50s) that I've read might be interpreted that way. But of course the "other side" sometimes made it VERY easy for them too to adopt that attitude. All this babble about the "angry young men" of jazz that occurred at the same time etc. ... Which reminds me of a rather caustic article on those allegedly oh so angry young men that appeared in "Orkester Journalen" and stressed the fact that Sonny Rollins, then touted as one of THE angry young jazzers was actually a soft-spoken, thoughtful and introspective (but certainly not angry) person once you made an effort to talk to him (backstage or otherwise). Anyway ... "middle jazz" really seems to describe that music better, and isn't it so that the musician who sailed under that "Mainstream" tag in the 2nd half of the 50s and thereafter were not really crusaders for a return to any "golden age of jazz" and did not seriously wage any war against hard bop etc. either and that any confrontation was more of a writers' stunt? I mean, we are not talking about the 40s situation here. So far, so good ... must acquaint myself more with Scott Hamilton now to follow the rest of your debate better ...

Sorry for chiming in kind of late in this debate, but aren't you putting a bit too much emphasis on (actual or imaginary) artistic jugdments about a superiority that allegedly "mainstream" jazz set out to establish? If you reread period articles about what became to be known as "mainstream" jazz you will very often find the term "middle jazz". This term may have fallen into disuse since but isnt' this what "mainstream" (or "middle jazz", for that matter) is all about? A stream of jazz that is somewhere in the middle between 50s/early 60s modern jazz and Dixielandish revivalist jazz (THIS is where true revivalism was and is)? I.e. nothing more than updated swing music. It is true that the British jazz publicists who coined the term felt that many Swing-era masters were unfairly overlooked by the mid-50s (small wonder ...) but yours is just about the first major statement that I see where the protagonists of "mainstream" are accused of denigrating Modern Jazz (and its outgrowths) as being a "wrong path". So is or was there ever really this confrontation in mainstream jazz that actually existed in the "Moldy figs" debate of a decade before? After all, there have always been "mainstream" artists who have been more on the "Modern Jazz" end of "mainstream" and those who have been on the "swing" end of "mainstream.