Big Beat Steve

I don't have the full picture to judge this either but I would not be surprised one bit if you were right.

An interesting discussion, but - apart from the fact that it has led FAR away from the question of the validity of the original "best" listing (debatable at any rate), it may not lead to any consensus just because there are SO MANY differnt stylistic islands of jazz that really ARE islands today because the common ground (that may have existed up to the hard bop era) just isn't there anymore with all that is lumped in under the "jazz" tag today. @Rabshakeh: Since you brought it up: What DO "Rare Grooves" as a genre in itself mean to you anyway? I am certainly a bit older than you (and in the opinion of some may have "old fart" jazz tastes ) but when i became aware of the "Rare Grooves" bins in the record shop at the time this category all of a sudden was all over the place I browsed them casually here and there - and you know what ... my basic impression (apart from the fact that some of them indeed were a sort of DJ playlist sampler) was that many were just compilations that included tracks a wee bit off the trodden paths of the too well known. But to those in jazz who took a passably deep interest in the jazz style in question those "grooves" cannot have been all that exceedingly rare either. (Ha, are they part of the "expert level jazz audience", then? ) So those "Rare Grooves" merchants seemed to have lived on the fact the "Rare Grooves" listeners were fairly clueless in what there was in recorded jazz after all. A bit like with Northern Soul, another category that seemed to have been made up form a similar background. DJs from Northern UK club bases making up their playlists of fairly rare stuff. But rare enough for other soul collectors? And a misnomer in that it had nothing to do (except by geographic coincidence of the recordings) with Northern (e.g. Detroit/Motown)-based Soul as opposed to "Southern" (Stax/Memphis, for example?) Soul? All in all, marketing tags - yes, but styles of jazz??

Don't you know that Sonny Stitt had always been accused of just having been a Charlie Parker copycat? (Despite assertions that he had come to his ideas and style on his own and had the basics of his style set before Bird exerted any further influence - something which we will never know for sure one way or another - but REALLY "one way or another" - but the benefit of doubt did not apply to him, it seems) So THAT accusation alone at THAT time would have done him in with many on the scene.

While I did not find that Guitar Genius album really "free", actually my impression upon relistening to it now for the first time in years is "freewheeling" ... I see what you mean about "incoherent", though. But then I cannot judge his overall output because I have a selectin of his 50s and early 60s recordings (including the 1962 date on Mole Jazz) but that's just a smattering and the Guitar Genius CD is "the odd one out" in what I have ...

Just out of curiosity: How would you rate this one (below) overall, then? https://www.discogs.com/de/Ren%C3%A9-Thomas-Guitar-Genius-/release/7848730

I think this was common practice wherever someone attempted to make an even faster buck by widening its sales appeal with a sort of "generic" artist credits than would allow the buyers' imaginations to run wild (and be fooled ). The 1957 Wolfgang Lauth session (that I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread) that ended up on the obscure U.S. Pulse label (though recorded in Germany but never released here) was credited to an imaginary "European Jazz Quartet" (maybe trying to trick Stateside buyers into believing this was "Europe's Answer to the MJQ"? ), though at least the musicians were identified correctly in the liner notes. Not to mention the fanciful credits (or no-credits) on budget labels such as Crown ...

Seeing Joe Zawinul's name mentined in another thread, here is an appetizer of early "modern from Austria" (a country not much mentioned so far): An interesting CD reissue of 1954-57 recordings by the Austrian All Stars featuring Joe Zawinul at his early career when he still had hair (but no beard) and did not wear funny caps yet: Who would have guessed?

@Jsngry: Yes you ARE splitting hairs. I just said I prefer his recordings from his pre-Asian period. To anyone even superficially aware of what he did, hat defines them (at least roughly) in the chronology of his recorded works. Whatever he did later is BESIDE THE POINT. I did NOT dwell on these. So there is nothing to be "factually" or even historically wrong or right about. (In fact it would be historically wrong to claim that e.g. a preference for the works of an artist from period 1 that predated period 2 would by inference state ANYTHING about period 3) And no, there is no overriding truth in how to approach diverse discographies such as his. You are free to have the last word you so desire in (pointless) rounds like this you like to fuel ever so often but again - there is no mandatory way to justify preferences - or to justify them at all. They are just matters of taste, purely and simply.

Ah, JSangrey splitting hairs again ... If you look at his stylistic evolution you will find that, chronologically speaking, there is a period BEFORE the "Asian" recordings (it's up to you if you consider Zen meditation, for example, being sufficiently Asian-influenced to file them under "Asia"), and his earlier output ranks stylistically "before" these "Asian" recordings so that's that. Whatever there is in "post-Asian" is beside the point because it's not what I was thinking of (neither, I would assume, by Peter Friedmann nor Jazzcorner). (As for the 1962 Asia tour (see the recent Lost Tapes release), I haven't heard it yet so won't comment on that.) And at any rate this nitpicking is pointless. Tony Scott had different "periods" so it is only natural that these would appeal quite differently to people because the musical contents were deeply different.

It is an approximation, nothing more. Not a definition of a specific cutoff date carved in rock. Looking at his overall discography, the basic idea should be clear, though.

So I assume that version is THY DEFINITIVE VERSION, right?

For obvious reasons I prefer the pre-Asian recordings by Tony Scott too - but that's a matter of basic approach to his music which may vary a LOT according to each indvidual's tastes in jazz. OTOH, I msut admit there are moments when I find Scott's preference for the higher register of his instrument a bit grating even on these 50s sessions. Re- the last-mentioned recordings, I remember having read a rave review of the "Message from Garcia" LP (mostly for Garcia's guitar palying, of course) recently but cannot track it down right now to quote. I guess I'll give the LP a spin tonight (it's been a long time since last time ... ).

@Rabshakeh: These sessions should be easy enough to track down after all. Here is a 2CD set that combines the three LPs in their original track order (as far as I can check). So you can listen to them piecemeal LP-wise if you prefer. https://www.freshsoundrecords.com/tony-scott-bill-evans-albums/2454-a-day-in-new-york-2-cds.html?search_query=Tony+Scott&results=76 And if you want vinyl after all, the "Modern Art of Jazz" LP on Seeco was reissued on vinyl by Fresh Sound back in the day when they did vinyl (in decent enough sound quality - am just listening to it now). So secondhand copies certainly are around.

A side note: Having read this in several posts from you by now, I suppose you realize that "THEE" means "YOU" and not "THE"? Just sayin' (Yes I found the band name "Thee Milkshakes" inane from the very first time I read it )

And the way we heard it over here it always sounded like "Chuckie's in love". Who woulda thunk this referred to anyone but an imaginary person?

@Rabshakeh, getting back to your other thread about European jazz from 1945-69, how about this one to combine BOTH threads? https://www.discogs.com/de/Tony-Scott-2-And-Horst-Jankowski-Trio-In-Concert/release/6479437 Don't be misled by the cover - the music is from 1957 when Tony Scott looked as much different from his Asian period as his music was different (though IMO, relatively speaking he often was farther out on his 50s recordings than you would have expected). At any rate, it's an interesting combination that works well enough - and this at a festival in a country where they spell jazz "Dzez" (no kidding!) (BTW, see how erratic Discogs sometimes is? There is another CD release of this one listedn on Discogs and there the muisc is described as "Smooth Jazz". Ha! The description under the above entry is more to the point.)

I cannot comment on the contents, of course, but from your description this basically sounds to me like this book is another example of French publishing houses willing to take MUCH more chances with niche subjects and publish them in a decent form to give exposure to the authors and their writing and thorough research - way more than in other countries, e.g. Germany, for exampre, where highly specialized minority-interest subjects like this no doubt would force the authors into self-publication or print-on-demand at best. I have seen other cases like this among French non-fiction publications and IMO this alone speaks for the book.

Are there any records that are "un-sociable" as long as they are stored away on the shelves? How many are there among your visitors who browse the spines of your records with any stamina? I find I am usually the "odd man out" at a friend's place when I take a closer or longer look at his collection (a fairly decent one) almost every time we are there on a visit (though the get-togethers there usually include several music fans/record collectors).

A bit late (sorry) but better late than never ... Here is the page with noteworthy East German jazz vinyl from the GDR included in the Fascination Jazz book. The listing is roughly chronologcal, covering the 1960 to 1973 period. Of course this is not all there was but it's a good cross-section.

Not much free wall space at all in my "music room" either, so apart from a few framed Herman Leonard photographs and two 50s jazz calendars, just enough space to make use of this 12" 78er (Eddie Heywood on Signature) which had a chunk cracked off but by sheer conicidence I soon after found an intact copy of this very record so was able to complete the album and put this one to decorative use in the narrowish corner between the vinyl LP wall and the window ... ... and then this one pinned up above the door (where no record shelves fit) - another chance purchase just for its cheesecake cover (the music doesn't grab me much) ...

The LPs I showed are just those (with noteworthy covers) that I have in my collection (in addition to the Mulligan LP on Fantasy that BillF showed). So there certainly is more to explore for those interested.

This is quite an ODD way to describe his activities in those days - to say the least ... He was leading his own big band when Cohn and Sims were still section men. Etc. 96 was a long run. Thanks for the music. RIP.

Jazz went through various alternating periods of liberalism and clamping down in the GDR through the 50s and 60s so this is a very complicated history. As for the 70s and Euro-Free Jazz (that was particularly intense in Eastern Europe, including the GDR), there were exchanges, though I do not know a lot about it as Euro-Free is not my center of interest in jazz. But i do know that the Gumpert/Sommer Duo + Manfred Hering had releases on FMP in the 70s, as did the Ernst-Ludwig Petrowsky Quartet. So the West German "scene" labels were not above leasing masters from the GDR. Western records (not just jazz - everything) in the GDR of course were always rare and pricey (literally black-market items), though there at least was a steady trickle of Western jazz recordings leased by Amiga.

@ medjuck: Maybe because the year it was founded (1974) was outside the time frame that Rabshakeh asked about ...

@Rabshakeh: "Government published" is hard to define in a Communist setting. It was published by the "VEB Lied der Zeit" üuslbishign house in East Berlin that also operated the Amiga (and Eterna etc.) record labels of the GDR. It is largely a picture book but also has (German) texts on the East German jazz scene - including coverage of (not extremely numerous) visits by U.S. and British stars as well as the happenings of Eastern Europeran jazz scene of the early 70s and its artists (many Polish and Czech as they were very present in the GDR), and while it also covers amateurs and the Trad scene it is HEAVY on modern jazz (which in that case leans towards the Euro-"Free" side, given what was happening in the early 70s). Considering its origins, it was VERY well done. Also because the author of the text was the #1 jazz scribe of the GDR and managed not to be too much engulfed by Communist obligations but steered a course that was at least halfway objective and broad-minded. Tomorrow I'll try to scan the page with the record list (which is not comprehensive for that roughly 1960 to 1973 period but a starter).