Big Beat Steve

Yes, I'd also say that the term in fact originated in the UK (through Stanley Dance) and spread from there. There was another term for this style of jazz that came up at about the same time in France: "Middle Jazz". Widely used there for a while and very descriptive IMO and amazing in that usually the French are/were loath to adopt English terms on their own but would rather "francise" them. Re- Stanley Dance and the recordings he supervised in 1958/59 for the Felsted label (as discussed almost 20 years ago here), vinyl reissues appeared on the MJR (USA) and Affinity (UK) labels, and more recently (LONG after the 2003 discussion here ) they were reissued in their entirety on a Fresh Sound box set. Some move me more than others but overall I do seem to get more out of them than Larry Kart did in 2003 (particularly the ones by Budd Johnson and Buddy Tate). "But that's just me ..."

I suppose you want an original or early vinyl repressing of "Adventure in Time"? Because it does exist as a budget/public domain CD reissue in the "Classic Albums" series on AvidJazz. Spurred on by your S-F thread, I got that set for the "Sons of Sauter-Finegan" LP which I had been searching for unsuccessfully on vinyl in the past. A compromise I can live with in the face of the 4 or 5 original S-F LPs I already have.

An interesting thought ... Having read the Kenton chapter and the comments on Graettinger's lifestyle in Ted Gioia's "West Coast Jazz" not long ago, this image came to my mind too when I first read about Graettinger's Kenton recordings in this thread. Another item on the "time to relisten" list, then - though I'd certainly steer clear of THAT "diet" ... BTW, @TTK: Another suggestion trying to expand the Sauter-Finegan legacy: Have you had a listen to this? https://www.discogs.com/de/release/10738993-Eddie-Sauter-In-Germany Not as adventurous as the Sauter-Finegan recordings but he does carry some of it over into what normally would be more conventional big band jazz of the latter 50s. Which makes these fairly special in their time frame.

As for acknowlediging jazz's currency on the world stage (and its share of post-war optimism), I still "stand by" (pun intended ) what I said earlier: Harry Arnold's late 50s big band with a reversal of the roles: not one European plus a U.S. crew throughout but one U.S. man (Quincy Jones supplying the arrangements for some but not all of the outstanding recordings by the band, Arnold and Gösta Theselius contributed many too) or, rather, two (Benny Bailey featured on many Jones charts) plus a crew of the cream of Swedish jazzmen. They were their own men and I find them not at all difficult to relax to in my (Eames) lounge chair. But yes - tastes do differ.

Well, they decided to take the "This Modern World" (Capitol H460) 10" cover art for the 12" release of BOTH of these 10-inchers (Capitol W736). Maybe because the color dots on that cover artwork hint at the rather "far out" notations by Bob Graettinger on his charts of both of these records (wasn't there a thread about these charts somewhere here?). Of course it may be open to debate if the City of Glass cover would't have fitted both just as well on one record. FWIW, seeing the cover again now, I guess I'd grab this City of Glass release just for the cover if the price was right (though I already own both H460 and W736).

Well, Down Beat gave it a five-star review. So it was not only the French ... I listened to it again yesterday and found it quite OK and enjoyable but would certainly not rank it as sky-high as your friends do. I suppose the adulation by your French jazz friends is as much a matter of national pride as of musical merits (in short, a mixed bag, objectively speaking ... ) Legrand was a national hero in musical France so this may explain that but after all he was the only French participating in the Legrand Jazz sessions ... (And for this reason, talking about categories, I'd never think of filing that record in my "Eurojazz" section) For recordings by a foreign bandleader visiting the US aroud that time, actually I like the recordings made under the leadership of André Persiany in the US in 1956/57 better. And in general, if it was a matter of a non-U.S. band leader upsetting the big band world I'd rather give the nods to Harry Arnold from Sweden (the original "Jazztone Mystery Band" to the initiated ... ) As for André Hodeir in the SABP section, ho hum ... some of it is a bit too cerebral for my taste ...

Getting back to this discussion after the night .. In fact last night I had thought of Duane Tatro's "Jazz for Moderns" (not only because of its cover ) as a candidate for this thread but then discarded it as too obvious just for the cover on the one hand and too "far out" on the other. Incorrectly? And then Pete Rugolo crossed my mind - as did Johnny Richards. But I wasn't sure they'd be dismissed as "just Kenton collaborators" and therefore off the radar ... Incorrectly again since I just see that Stan Kenton seems to be part of your space-age section too ...? Difficult indeed to pin down the focus of this thread unless you have comprehensive knowledge of what is out there in that boundary area (which I do not have, but then I seem to search and file artists under "jazz" - undisputedly so by common opinion - that you don't ...). Serves me right for being out of touch with the evolution of the thread due to the time difference ... Anyway ... as for Pete Rugolo, I have "Introducing Pete Rugolo", "Adventures in Rhythm", "An Adventure in Sound - Reeds", "Rugolomania" and "For Hi-Fi Bugs". Must take time to listen to them again more closely when I have some lounge-chair leisure time ... (this is no music for "background listening"). Finally, trying to clarify your broader context for me: I was unable to find your Sauter-Finegan thread on searching briefly but I suppose you'd rank them in your bachelor pad category too?

Ha ... "Percussion" flipped a switch with me ... and another one as I read on and come across Enoch Light and Command. So ... actually ... in that style, how would you rate "Persuasive Percussion" (command RS800 SD) by Terry Snyder and the All Stars (lineup incuding Tony Mottola, Dick Hyman and Jack Lesberg among the more notable jazz names)? I was given it very early in my collecting days (and appreciate it for the Josef Albers cover alone), warmed up to it for occasional relaxed listening "out there" but am not sure I'd expect to find it in the jazz racks (it sits outside the Jazz section in my collection too) As the occasions arose, I later picked up "Provocative Percussion vol. 2" by (nominally by Enoch Light, on Command too) so I won't dwell on it further as you have given your opinion on him - except that I do like the Snyder album a tad better (though the line-ups seem to be fairly interchangeable) but this one is a period document for its Josef Albers cover too. Another one in that vein I have is "Percussion and Guitars" (Time S2000, arrangements by Al Caiola). All space-agey enough for me, in a way.

Re- Legrand Jazz, it is a while simce I've listened to it (BTW - yes, it is the only Michel Legrnad Jazz LP I have ) so I will spin it later today but I would not have considered it "space age bachelor pad" music the way I understand you use this term and "category" (judging by your previous - numerous - references to it). So maybe after listening to it I will understand better what kind of recordings you are typically referring to. At the moment I am somewhat in the dark too ...

The only case of chances I may have failed to take in recent years and regret somewhat now was when at a clearout sale by one of the local 2nd hand record stores I wasn't curious enough to grab the two original Frank D'Rone LPs they had (to make matters worse, this was not long after you brought up the name here). But considering what else from a wide field of styles there is out there that I'd like to hear and get my hands on but that won't fit my racks anymore (and that with the best will in the world I'll never be the biggest 50s/60s MOR adult pop vocalist fan ) I'll survive that miss too ...

Oh well ... sometimes I wonder if its the fault of the algorithms. I don't buy often on Discogs but seeing what my favorite seller shop has lumped in under "jazz" has made me cringe more than once, and this cannot all be a case of algorithms but rather a matter of how those shop staff who do the listings feel they can get more exposure. Usually a case of lots of easy (or extremely easy) listening dross thrown into the jazz bag ... But I've fast learned how to adjust my search parameters.

Who gives a damn? Like Rabshakeh said ... those who have a hunch there might be something out there that would appeal to them in the "blues" field but is consistently filed elsewhere, particularly ("horror of horrors!" ) under "jazz"! Not that this would happen around here, but have you never met anyone who - upon discussing apparently common interests in music and this or artist or recording that you'd consider related and potentially interesting - proclaims "oh, but that's jazz". Meaning "that's too far out for me, regardless of what it actually is - if it is jazz - as it is - I can't be bothered to check it out.". His loss? Sure ... but the kind of artificial pigeonholing that makes discussions and exchanges tiresome. So any discussion that increases awareness of what is BEYOND those standardized categories should be worth exploring and giving a bloody damn about.

Yes, but can you imagine anyone filing BB King in the "JAZZ" (and NOT "Blues") section anywhere? Which would be what Rabshakeh's original question referred to, i.e. blues discoveries you would not find under "Blues" but would have to look for in the Jazz section. So IMO BB King's case is settled. Charles Brown? Another of the R&B cases I mentioned earlier as candidates you would have to search for under "Jazz" first. But of course he might be too mellow for some blues fans. @John L: Same for T-Bone Walker. Like BB King, who would NOT file him under "Blues"?

As far as your post-WWII recommendations are concerned, you are walking straight into R&B/Jump Blues territory. A classic case of where the boundaries of blues (in its POPULAR 40s form, i.e. R&B) and jazz blur heavily and it's a matter of personal taste where you file what. Example: I do not distinguish between blues (from down-home to electrified) and R&B (rhythm and blues/jump blues/honkers & shouters, etc.) and file all these in one and the same section. So you have Memphis Minnie next to Roy Milton, etc. And all of my Louis Jordan and Buddy Johnson records are racked up there too because most of their recordings that I have would rather tend towards the R&B end of jazz. A personal quirk, maybe, but that's the way it is. Hot Lips Page, OTOH, is in the Swing section because most of his recordings I have clearly are better placed there. Not to mention that there are artists whose recorded opus covers both more straight-ahead blues and R&B-ish recordings, cf. Brownie McGhee and Jimmy McCracklin (and I am certainly not one of those who'd blame those artists for having "sold out" by recording R&B - like many folksies did back in the day). As for what I have observed in record shops (at the time when there was NEW vinyl) and more recently (in secondhand collector record stores) is that most shop staff seem to be very, very unsure of where to file all-out typical post-WWII R&B of, say, 1945 to 1960. I usually found and find these vinyls in the jazz section whereas even in secondhand collector shops classic R&B still is conspicuously absent from the Blues section (the stocks of which often veer between down-home and Chicago-type electrified blues or "white" blues). Maybe this is because most R&B I tend to look out for was reissued on subculture collector labels that rarely seem to find their way into secondhand stores but still the dividing line that seems to exist is baffling ...

Some spontaneous ideas: - Confessin' The Blues - Jay McShann feat. Walter Brown (reissued on Affinity) - All the post-Basie Jimmy Rushing LPs on Vanguard and Columbia - "Joe Williams Sings Everyday" on Regent (reissued as "Everyday I Have the Blues" in the Savoy Jazz LP series) - Joe Turner "Big Joe Rides Again" (Atlantic) - while I have a hunch that his hit-making record compilations on National and Atlantic might make it into the blues/R&B or even r'n'r racks this late 50s LP might more likely end up in the jazz section. Anyway ... about what you consider "blues", and looking beyond the "low-down sitting in the gutter country blues" clichés, where would you draw the line between blues and R&B? And since you mention "a lover of Muddy Waters" I am not quite if a typical lover of Muddy Waters would't find the above a bit too "slick" ...

Not so, Mike. Around the very same time the same magazine carried a very appreciative feature on Red Norvo and his (then) recent recordings and appearances. Not something you would rank under "hard swing", isn't it? Rather something that can be filed under intricate arrangements too. Besides, 1954 wasn't (yet?) the apex of "hard swing", least of all heavily cool-influenced Sweden. And I find "police" a fairly inappropriate term in this context anyway. (By that yardstick, what and who else would then have to be labeled "jazz police" as well in accordance with whatever trends and "must-likes" reared their heads in the jazz press through the years and were considered to be desirable in jazz to the exclusion of other styles and approaches?) Anyway ...I cannot see that Orkester Journalen was "police"-ish about what they considered jazz worthy to be written about. Beyond that, of course reviewers have their preferences and dislikes (at all times, and aren't these sometimes conflicting approaches part of the charm and interest of what is and has been written about jazz?), and clearly the over-the-top title of the album grated the reviewer(s). Looking back, the review IMO should not be taken all that seriously and as the definite statement but in the context of its times and a (supposed) approach of "what is the buyer going to get?" it does make some sense, not least of all because it was reviewed in the jazz and not in the pop section of the mag. After all - let's face it - George Shearing at all times walked a fine line between more straight-ahead chamber jazz and supper club popular audience appeal (even in his MGM days). Jazz listeners had to face up to the fact: Like it or not but deal with it. FWIW, to my surprise I discovered last night (after posting that review) that in fact I DO own that LP. What had got me mixed up was that the review referred to the 8-track 10" release (which I never had, contrary to "You're Hearing George Shearing") whereas I do have the somewhat later 12-track 12" release under the same title in my racks. So I guess I'll spin it later today to refresh my recollections (otherwise I most often pull out the Verve twofer for MGM Shearing).

Since you mention it expressly and I just happened to read the review of "Touch of Genius" a day or two ago in the November 1954 issue of "Orkester Journalen" I could not resist the temptation of quoting it here for your erudition and enjoyment: "You really get sore at this platter even before you have given it a spin. Have you ever come across such a pretentious album title? Is Shearing a genius and are these sides intended to prove it? If so, then we'll quit our job as record reviewers and settle for making a living as beet growers. Well, we tried to look beyond MGM's titling fancy, but kind as we tried to be, our impression was a rather lukewarm one. One prerequisite to listening to the entire record in one go is to be seated on a truly uncomfortable and hard-faced upright chair that keeps you from dozing away to the group's sugar-sweet and indifferent sounds. Shearing enthusiasts will be interested to learn that Loose Leaf is one of his better tunes whereas the rest is part of those that will soon fade into oblivion again, regardless of how fanatic a follower of this style music one is. For jazz fans this record amounts to a pure sleeping pill, and it is an ideal choice as background music for party chatter. Strictly speaking we don't even know why we included it in our review section - it must have been that "Touch of Genius" tag that made us take notice ..." BTW, for the record, while I do not own this particular LP I do like the MGM-era George Shearing recordings that I have (the Verve twofer plus various other period LPs).

Is it just the US-centric debate of this topic so far or is there really such a schism between the US and European notions of what Third Stream was (with John Lewis and Gunther Schuller probably the only common ground) that no one has so far mentioned - the "Play Bach" albums by Jacques Loussier or - "Jazz Goes Baroque" (2 vols.) by George Gruntz? Third Stream was BIG over here in the late 50s/early 60s and so were the above records in that idiom.

Ha, those black & white Chess pressings ... Yes, this must have been the latter 70s 8and early 80s) when they evden popped up here. All those I really noticed at the time (Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley, mostly) looked not just b/w instead of color but also somewhat blacked out to me - like sub-perfect photocopies. And yes - I also seem to remember they all were cutouts. But many U.S pressings that came into the shops here in those years were cutouts at the time ... But for some reason at the same time the full-color reissues also were available. So the choice was easy ... I also remember, however, that while color was better than B&W, I somehow felt that "at least" they did reproduce the original artwork in some way. Considering the often really boring/garish/clueless/out-of-style 70s and early/mid-80s reissue covers of 50s records that were regulars in the shops then this seemed like a (relatively) major achievement to me then ...

Yes, I think it is another aspect of people wanting TANGIBLE things in music media. My son told me more than once in recent years that cassettes are still a medium to be reckoned with on the "grassroots" level of Heavy Metal (which he is primarily into). Many small/local/startup bands not only make demo cassettes (and not CDs - or maybe both but definitely cassettes as well) but it also seems to be common for bands on that level that sell their own music at their gigs to explicitly market their recordings on cassette. So the demand for that medium seems to be there in that niche (maybe as an "in thing" but who knows?).

It probably depends (among other criteria) on the celebrity status of the one to whom the item was signed. Example: I have a copy of Leon McAuliffe's (long-time steel guitarist with Bob Wills) "Cozy Inn" LP of 1962 (ABC-Paramount 394). It was signed by Leon as follows: "To a great artist and wonderful guy & a good friend - Joe Allison!" (Don't ask me how it came to end up here - it went through the hands of at least one previous owner outside the US) I also have a copy of Hugues Panassie's 1950 "Jazz Panorama" book that was signed by him and Madeleine Gautier to a recipient whose full name was given. His name did not ring a bell with Brownie when I asked him about the person so he may have been either just a (dedicated) fan or someone only involved locally in the jazz scene (I bought the book at a small book fair near the Mediterranean coast in the Southwest of France).

My thoughts exactly even before I saw your reply! And his book also goes quite a bit beyond actual Bebop and lumps in hard bop (and sometimes beyond) - which is not what the book title implies. So it's good as an additional companion volume to others (see Rabshakeh's recent thread asking for recommendations for a book specifically about bebop - the REAL "period" bebop, not its hard bop or post-bop evolutions, according to what he said). But it should never be the first choice on THAT subject. (OTOH, DeVeaux' books is skewed due to his overemphasis on Coleman Hawkins - so what you need there is to keep your proverbial grain of salt handy when you read DeVeaux's opus ) Yet I wonder if, how and when an average jazz listener, collector and fan can digest other in-depth books that dwell on musical analysis. Examples: - The Music and Life of Theodor Fats Navarro (by Petersen and Rehak) - Interesting but HEAVY stuff, even if you like the music enough to try to grasp the finer details while listening to the actual tune discussed in the book ... - above all: "The Swing Era" by Gunther Schuller. Lots of musical analysis too but somehow I found this somewhat easier to digest. Schuller seems to be able to strike a better balance between historical AND musical analysis where the musical analysis is not an exceedingly detailed musicianly end in itself but a means to highlight the style and evolution of the musician within the overall historical context. But re- Bill F's comment that "I now have serious reservations about the entry of the academy into jazz", be careful, Bill ... I have a feeling you have not seen the most cumbersome of academic writing in jazz yet in the above examples. There are jazz books where scholarliness and academy tend to crowd out the actual subject or at least blur it due to the agenda that the author seems to have. There would be enough for a separate thread ... I'm wondering now ... Now that the "Miss Fisher Murder Mysteries" series (one I've enjoyed watching) is currently being given its third run on TV here I wonder if I ought to get this one to read up on some (musical) background of the era. Or maybe to keep the book by Michael Sturma on Australian Rock'nRoll company on the bookshelf? If you have watched the series you might recall that the Australian Sonny Clay tour actually was mentioned briefly in one episode - by a musician of a jazz band that played a key role in that episode, though the songs they performed did not sound that much like late 20s pre-swing à la Fletcher Henderson or Luis Russell but rather like some slightly "thirtyfied" neo-swing, particularly as far as the rhythm section went ... (But no, indeed the average watchers would not have noticed, and the "mixed couple" relationship between the singer and the trumpeter in the story would not have been typical of the era either ... ) At any rate, it had me baffled that they mentioned Sonny Clay at all and his name even survived into the German synchronization ...

R.I.P. Another link to history gone ...

Offer withdrawn. Apparently unwanted.

+1 And his sides for National (etc.) as well.