Big Beat Steve

Like I said in that "other" thread yesterday. Having done Eurojazz listening all day (as a background to that other thread), I think I will pull out my copy of that one next.

Thank you - you make me blush. But also acutely aware of what I DON'T know and have never been able to hear (and likely never will).

No, I don't. I've heard and read about it, but that's all. I guess you are right about the copious use of the word "problem" in those days but IMO Hodeir had a knack of turning almost everything into an ivory-towerish "problem" of deep-deeper probing dimensions (or at least presenting it as such). It may sound sacrilegious but there were times when I had worked my way through one of his all too theoreticizing pieces in "Jazz Hot" and was left somewhat bewildered (by all the dissecting he did that clouded out much of the core of jazz - and I hasten to add that it was NOT a problem of any lack of knowledge of the French language) that I really had to do some "contrasting" reading in copies of Hugues Panassié's "Bulletin du Hot Club de France" from roughly the same period to get GROUNDED again ...

Thanks for that overview on those early Belgian LPs. I had never thought of checking out discogs. That places my Herman Sandy LP in context. Re- Dutch recordings available now: I suppose there is a fair bit of Rita Reys around, and have you checked out what the Nederlands Jazz Archief has reissued on MODERN jazz? E.g. the "Combo's in Nederland" CDs? I have only ever got my hands on Vol. 1 ("Liefde in Rhythme - 1947-51" which essentially is Swing and touches just about on the very first hints of modern jazz in the Netherlands). Was there ever a Vol. 2, I wonder? Judging from your comments about Dutch modern jazz, I suppose I also did well with these chance purchases (one on Ebay, one at a local record shop where they clearly were put off by the worn sleeve and priced it accordingly )?

50s/60s Danish jazz had a LOT of "Trad", but some (modernist) names to check out from before the NHØP heyday, apart from drummer William Schiøpffe who was on countless sessions outside Denmark (often in Sweden): Jørgen Ryg Max Brüel (who had the misfortune of seeing several of his 1955 Metronome EPs issued in the US on an EmArcy LP that was blasted roundly in a one-(!!)star review in DB, blaming every imaginable facet of poorness and copycatting on Brüel and his crew. Not that the record was a standout in the annals of recorded jazz, and Brüel had clearly listened to Gerry Mulligan, but it don't sound that bad ...Maybe it grated on the reviewer that they decided to treat "Indiana" as a restrained, low-key ballad, for example?) Bent Axen (incidentally, NHØP made his very first recordings with him in 1961) Jazz Quintet 60 (feat. Bent Jaedig, Allan Botschinsky et al. - I think their original EPs are among those that make/made the Japanese go crraaaazy in thier auction bidding ) Erik Moseholm and then, going beyond 100% Danish lineups, Rolf Billberg's Danish recordings form 1956/57 (reissued on Storyville), the Oscar Pettiford recordings with Danish groups, or the 1965 LP by Sahib Shihab with the Danish Radio Jazz Group (on Oktav OKLP 111 - an excellently replicated facsimile reissue LP appeared a couple of years ago). And THEN - there were these retrospective compilations: "Danish Jazz in the 50s" - vols. 1 and 2: https://www.discogs.com/de/Various-Danish-Jazz-In-The-50s-Vol-1-Bop-And-Mainstream/master/434418 (Sorry, Vol. 2 - on Olufsen 6001 - does not seem to be on Discogs)

I suppose in the same vein you can only take classical music performed by AMERICAN symphony orchestras seriously to the point they stopped trying to play like typical (forcibly and obviously Europan-sounding) orchestras performing classical works or, more consequently still, not borrow from the works of European masters but Charles Ives etc. (standing "YOUR" - American - ground). Right? Of course this is a rhetorical question or retort. One that has no definite answer and is pointless to elaborate on. Just like in jazz it is very much open to debate where Europeans tried to play like "Americans" (beyond the basics of the style(s) of jazz as such which made their music "jazz"). Many of the Europeans - even in the 50s - had their own nuances and touches which set them apart, even without the crutches of devices from classical music. It's all in the ear of the behearer, and after all, to most of the European jazzmen it was just a case of making the music they had discoverd for themselves and loved to get into and do themselves. Nothing wrong with that (except that supremely swinging rhythm sections at times were somewhat thin on the ground ). No absolute truth there in attempting to decree that there was excessive copying - which anyway often sounded like Americans afraid of losing their hegemony on "their" music - a music still too often ignored and slighted in THEIR country in those years ... Because overall, "copying" and lack or originality - by THAT yardstick - happened with US jazzmen too. Re- John Lewis, I definitely won't claim I am an expert on his recorded works, but have been exposed to a share of it from that period and I certainly would NOT think his Swingle Singers/MJQ LP is that atypical of his works from that period (I have the LP but cannot bring myself to listening to it now, sorry ). At least not as far as his work in Europe went. He epitomized the symbiosis of jazz and classical music that was hoped for in many circles in Europe in the late 50s and early 60s. And in that respect he explored almost every direction, it seems. Remember e.g. the scores he did with classical orchestras. He not only recorded (wit the MJQ and on his own) with large symphony orchestras - incuding here in Germany - but also composed and scored and performed with these symphony orchestras for German radio and likely elsewhere in Europe in those years. Mentions of "John Lewis projects" in that respect were all over the place in late-50s/early 60s European jazz publications. The Swingle Singers IMO do fit into that particular (peculiar?) picture, like Lambert, Hendricks & Ross fit into the picture of straight-ahead jazz that otherwise was purely instrumental.

Giving it the benefit of doubt, I pulled them out again - and stand corrected to a point. "Musique de films" is quite OK and listenable for what it is - film music, but somehow I'd need to see the movies and THEN listen again. Somehow there are other film jazz scores (starting with "Ascenseur pour l'Echafaud" and "Des femmes disparaissent" - or "Les liaisons dangereuses") that I can get into better even way outside the film. But that's only me ... "Essais" ("Tryouts") sounds more coherent on relistening now than I remembered it after all but still - some tracks are really a bit too "sketchy" ("esquisses") for me. There are moments when I wondered "you started out fine, now when do you get off the ground, or where ARE you going?". Something you need to be in the mood for. Of course, like with certain more explorational U.S. jazz from that period too. And like I said, YMMV. I also relistened to the "Keny Clarke's Sextet Plays André Hodeir" (Phillips). Interesting how he trimmed down the tunes by Miles, Monk, Duke, Mulligan and Benny Carter - maybe to what he saw as the bare "essence" (pun intended again). The scores ARE interesting to listen to and compare them with other versions of those tunes but they stil leave me puzzled as to WHAT made him tick to come up with that exactly. In the liner notes he says a.o. "We felt it was important above all to rethink the problem posed by the soloist as such and in his connection with the other musicians and also to concretize by suitable works the expanded forms that could result from that." (My translation but still ...) Huh? Was the soloist ever that much of a problem? Was Hodeir maybe answering a question nobody (or hardly anybody) in jazz had asked except Hodeir himself? Obviously blowing sessions were anathema to Hodeir, but anyway ... He seeemd to be concerned with "form" to an extent that I feel was bordering in stifling. The record DOES merit listening but the "Grand Prix de Disque" of 1958 that was bestowed on it IMO needs to be seen in the context of the times when no doubt there was a pervading feeling of welcome for whatever was done by means of classical music (or European music forms) to "harness in" all too freewheeling jazz to make it more palatable to European listening habits. Would you be surprised if I told you the original French title of his "Jazz - Its Evolution and Essence" book (which I did read, though a long time ago) was "Hommes et problèmes de jazz" ("Men and problems of jazz")? What (overriding) problems? To that extent and depth? What he wrote in "Jazz Hot" at that time (of which I have read a lot) went in the same vein - often a case of "not seeing the forest for the trees" IMHO when it came to the "essence" of the VITALITY and spontaneity in jazz. Again, YMMW, to each his own, just my 2c, and there is no overriding and eternal truth in discussions like this anyway ...

Some interesting hints on Belgian reissues, Niko. Thanks! I had no idea the 10" Herman Sandy LP I found at a totally unlikely record fair locally more than 30 years ago was important enough in the Belgian jazz discography to be included (in part) in these compilations.

Some personal listening suggestions for SWEDEN: IMHO Sweden had the most active and fertile jazz scene in Continental Europe in the period the thread starter is interested in (at least until c.1960). Stating it in a simplified way, early post-war modern Swedish jazz began as a mix of distinctly modernized Benny Goodman Sextet and George Shearing styles but basically Sweden was Cool Jazz territory (with a special brand of "Swedish Cool" - as played by Lars Gullin). A lot of recordings from the heyday of Swedish jazz have never been reissued, but the best introduction, overview and documentation of the wide variety of Swedish jazz IMO is provided by the "Svensk Jazzhistoria" CD set series on the Caprice label: https://musikverket.se/capricerecords/skivor/serier/svensk-jazzhistoria/ They are way more than "introductions", however, because they go into depth and include a lof interesting jazz off the beaten tracks of the known that is not found elsewhere. Vol. 6 to 10 of these CD box sets cover the period that Rabshakeh asked about. Reissues focusing on individual artists are well covered on the Dragon label. https://www.discogs.com/de/label/42727-Dragon-Records Lars Gullin has about 10 CD reissues on Dragon (covering the period up to about 1960). Some overlap with CD reissues on Metronome, some feature him as a sideman in other groups - which is interesting as it shows who "else" there was. More names and records to check out (many have reissues on Dragon): Bengt Hallberg (several of the recordings preceding his 1962 Gyllene Cirkeln album have been reissued on Dragon) Arne Domnérus ("Favorite Groups 1949/50"; Orchestra of 1950/51 feat. Rolf Ericson, as well as his modern big band of the late 50s) Harry Arnold (big band - the one widely touted in the U.S. as the Jazztone Mystery Band before it became known to the baffled US reviewers that this was NO U.S. big band - his cooperation with Quincy Jones was great) Gunnar Johnson Quintet - "1957-59" on Dragon. (Swedish Cool feat. early Jan Johansson) Rolf Ericson - "Miles Away" (1950-52) on Dragon Nils Lindberg/Swedish Modern Jazz Group - "Sax Appeal" (1959) feat. Lars Gullin Lars Werner-Bernt Rosengren Swedish Jazz Quartet - "Bombastica" (1959-60) on Dragon Staffan Abeléen & Lars Färnlöf - "Quintets 1962-66" on Dragon Gugge Hedrenius - "Choose now" (1964) on Columbia ("Swedish hard/soul") Bengt Arne-Wallin - "Old Foklore in Swedish Modern" (1962) - combining Swedish folklore influences with modern jazz Jan Johansson - "Jazz pa Svenska" (1962-64) - in the 60s Johansson made several recordings that made use of Swedish folk and traditional songs - an interesting experiment (as in the case of the Wallin record) that may be a bit hard to approach for non-Swedes unfamiliar with the folk tunes but somehow it does make sense Swedish post-war jazz is a really wide field and others may recommend other recordings from that period ... BTW, thanks, Rabshakeh, for bringing up this thread which has prompted me to revisit several of these records I had not listened to in a long time.

Ah, my fault ... overlooked ... sorry. But better twice than never, isn't it?

Addenda ... Lest I forget (before carrying on ): FRANCE: Re- the Swingle Singers mentioned earlier: If you check out the Swingle Singers, do not overlook Ward Swingle's earlier group either: Les Double Six of the early 60s, starting with the 1960 Columbia LP "Les Double Six Meet Quincy Jones". Far less third-streamish than the Swingle Singers but showing they could hold their own against Lambert, Hendricks & Ross ... GERMANY: Just a note to remind those wondering that there indeed was a "pre-Passport" Klaus Doldinger. - Rolf Kühn feat. Klaus Doldinger (Brunswick, 1962) - Jazz Made in Germany / Dig Doldinger (Philips, 1963) - Doldinger Live at Blue Note Berlin (Philips, 1963) - Doldinger Goes On (Philips, 1967)

Thanks again ... but please note that I am certainly not pretending to be THE expert on 1945-60 Eurojazz. I am just an "explorer" but my knowledge and collection are nowhere near comprehensive ... Anyway ... here's a second helping ... FRANCE: Reissues of French post-war jazz is sometimes plentiful, sometimes spotty, often severely overlapping and/or repackaged, sometimes lacking altogether so I guess the best start is to do a Discogs name search to find out what is accessible. Original releases most often were on Vogue (Swing), Blue Star and Barclay. The "Jazz in Paris" CD series on Gitanes/Universal has a lot of reissues (many of them first-time reissues), as did the earlier "black" BMG-Vogue CDs (and Fresh Sound did facsimile vinyl reissues of quite a handful of French items longer ago). Apart from Martial Solal already mentioned, there are plenty of other French pianists who make for interesting listening. These include René Urtreger (on Blue Star), Henri Renaud ("New Sounds at the Boeuf Sur le Toit" on Blue Star and reissues on the black BMG-Vogue CD series, including one featuring Bobby Jaspar), Bernard Peiffer (his FRENCH recordings - his US sessions are an acquired taste IMO), Georges Arvanitas (2 LPs on Pretoria) ... BTW, the Martial Solal LP recommended yesterday by Late (Vogue LD.200) is included in the "Jazz on Vogue" 20-CD box set so will probably be fairly easily accessible, even without hunting donw the Jazz Connoisseur series. And then ... Has Barney Wilen (from his DECIDEDLY pre-free and pre-drug-plagued days) been mentioned yet? His "Tilt" LP is on the 20-CD Jazz on Vogue box set mentioned earlier, and his "Barney" LP (RCA; 1959) has been reissued too. Christian Chevallier "6+6" (Barclay, 1957) - modern French big band scores Sacha Distel: Before he made it as a pop singer he was a jazz guitarist of some renown. Offhand I can only speak of his "Jazz Guitarist" 2-LP set in the "Jazz in Paris" CD series but there are several more reissue packagings of his jazz recordings. Re- the Jazz in Paris CD reissue series, do check out this series not only for the U.S. "name" artists recording in France but ABOVE ALL for the French jazzmen too: René Thomas (from 1954 and 1963), René Crolla (Django-influenced but with a special twist which makes him his own man - see #60, #80 #89 in that series whereas Hors-serie #04 (2 CD) is a bit too syrupy for my taste), and Michel de Villiers, Jean-Claude Fohrenbach, Hubert Fol, Buddy Banks (feat. Bobby Japar, BTW) would be names to check out. Related to the above names, "The Bobby Jaspar Quartet at Ronnie Scott's 1962" feat. René Thomas should be interesting, given the credentials of the leading names (Mole Jazz 11, LP and CD). And finally, not to be overlooked: "The Swinging Fats Sadi Combo" originally a Vogue 10-incher but one of the batch of Vogue LPs leased by Blue Note (5061) - so maybe known anyway. ITALY: There must have been a fair bit of jazz going on in Italy in the 50s and early 60s (Romano Mussolini, Basso-Valdambrini Quintet/Sextet, Enrico Intra, Gianfrano Intra, Franco Cerri, Armando Trovajoli a.o.) but AFAIK reissues are thin on the ground. Some Japanese facsimile LP reissues existed but obviously would be hard to get at affordable prices. One CD series I have found very interesting (and ear-opening) not only from a historical angle in documenting the post-war route of Italy into bebop and modern jazz is on the Riviera Jazz label (that usually does not seem to overlap with whatever other reissues there are). Their CDs featuring (mostly) modern jazz (they also have a lot of Italian swing) that I have definitely not regretted buying are: Gilberto Cuppini Groups (RJRCD015, 1947-54) Beginning of Modern Jazz in Milan (RJRCD021, 1949-54, feat. a.o. Gianni Basso and Oscar Valdambrini, Flavio Ambrosetti, Gianfranco Intra in various settings) Jazz in Italy in the 50s - Umberto Cesari, Nunzio Rotondo, Armando Trovajoli (RJRCD012, 1950-51) Rare and Unissued Jazz Concerts feat. many from the above circles (RJRCD018, 1952-62) O.K., getting to my Swedish favorites and listening suggestions later on, then ...

Thanks, but remember my listening suggestions are of course colored by my personal stylistic preferences (which are largely pre-free and off-Third Stream). Others may put the emphasis elsewhere so it is up to you to pick ... Till later, then ...

An interesting thread indeed, Rabshakeh, and I think one that fills a void. And the time period you suggest (i.e. WAY before the late 60s) is one that merits exploration (it appears that the only ones who REALLY have been keenly aware of this were the Japanese where Euro-jazz original vinyl from the 50s and early to mid-60s has commanded MINDBOGGLING prices for a LONG time). But it seems like a fair bit of the recommendations so far mentioned here (at least those that came from US forumists) again focus on the tail end of the 1945-69 period you suggested (either stylistically or chronologically) - which IMO makes them not so much representative of the entire 1945-69 period in ALL its facets but rather forerunners of the post-ca. 1969 things to come. (And no, there is a lot of 50s and early 60s European jazz that I would NOT consider "derivative" or "copycat" vs their U.S. inspirations at all - they had their own say in the idiom they favored) So ... trying to fill out a few modernist blind spots - a lot of it broadly in the Bebop and Cool styles, very subjectively and unfortunately colored not only by my personal preferences but to a certain extent by availability and OTOH non-availability of what on paper I know there was (e.g. I realize there was plenty more of interest in Italy in the 50s but reissues are rare). GERMANY: The heavyweight box set covering the production of "mod" records should give a good sampling of 50s "German Cool", including works by Hans Koller, Jutta Hipp, and others: https://besharpblog.wordpress.com/2014/03/25/jazz-west-germany/ Hans Koller: His 50s/early 60s discogrpahy is scattered a bit all over the place, but one reissue collection I found very interesting as a typical sample of 50s German/Austrian Cool is the "Some Winds" 2-CD set on RST 91562-2. Albert Mangelsdorff (pre-Jazz Ramwong which looks way ahead and also sideways, stylistically): There WAS Mangelsdorff BEFORE his Asian and free-ish periods. The earlier EPs on Brunswick and Philips are worth listening, e.g "A Ball with Al" and "Die Opa Hirchleitner Story". The tongue-in-cheek character of the latter one will probably be lost on those who cannot read the ongoing saga related to pops Hirchleitner in the (period) "Schlagzeug" magazine but the reissue on Bear Family Records (BCD 16331 which has both these EPs and more) may explain it all. Michael Naura: See if you can find a copy of his 1963 "European Jazz Sounds" LP on Brunswick (reissued in more recent times by Universal Music on CD and in Japan on LP and CD). Horst Jankowski (waaaay pre-"Black Forest sleighride" and all that): His 50s "Swingende Hölzer" EP on Telefunken is intriguing as somewhat classically inspired miniatures (with harpsichord and woodwinds in the line-up). No "Third Stream" in the usual sense and the overall sound may not be to everyone's liking but IMO a very German-ish way of using classical devices and YET keeping things swinging. And then there was the "modern mainstream"-styled "Gäste bei Horst Jankowski" LP (1961) on Metronome, relissued on Sonorama in 2014. A sort of cult record in some German circles, ath least in Southern Germany where Jankowski had his home base. Wolfgang Lauth: A wee bit in the early Jankowski vein, covered well by reissues on Bear Family Records (BCD 15716 and BCD 15942). Another session from that era ("New Jazz from the Old World") never released in Germany that somehow ended up as a TOOOOTALLY obscure item on the U.S. Pulse label was thankfully reissued some years ago as a facsimile CD on the Jazzhus Disk label. And as a spinoff to show the diversity of what was going on outside the recording studios of the German "majors" and with the musicians being able to stretch out: See if you can find a copy of the below CD that featured various regional acts from Southern Germany (including reincarnations of the Wolfgang Lauth group) in radio and private recordings from 1956/57 and 1962): https://www.discogs.com/de/Various-German-Authentics-Mannheim-Area-1956-1957-1962/release/6368987 Two more items I found rewarding: Karl Drewo (known from his work with the Clarke-Boland big band): "Clap Hands Here Comes Charlie" rec. in 1961, originally on Metronome, reissued on rearward records in Italy. Helmut Brandt: "Berlin Calling" - previously unreleased Cool recordings fomr the late 50s released on Sonorama in 2013. Of course there would be more but let's not get carried TOO much away ... NETHERLANDS: No doubt Dutch forumists will be able to contribute more (there must be interesting reissues by the Dutch Jazz Archive but they are hard to come by) but one essential look at 50s Modern Jazz in the Netherlands is found in the "Jazz Behind The Dikes" releases that after their original releases have variously been reissued as a 2-LP set and on (at least) 2 CDs on Philips (featuring the combos of Wessel Ilcken, Frans Elsen, Herman Schoonderwalt, Rob Madna a.o.). GREAT BRITAIN: No doubt lots of listening recomendations will keep coming from UK forumists who are far better qualified to judge what there was, but looking at things chronologically and beyond the usual supsects (would it be heresy to say that there was LOTS more to 50s and early 60s jazz in the UK than Tubby Hayes and Ronnie Scott? ), I think it would pay to look at reissues of the original Esquire label, for example (pending widespread re-availability of other labels' output), and I feel those interested in seeing how bebop struck Britain could do worse than start with the "Bebop in Britain" 4-CD box set on Charly (ESQ 100-4) featuring recordings from 1948-52. Among the vinyl reissue of Bebop-era U.K. jazz on Esquire, those that have struck a special chord with me are the "Waxing with Whittle" LPs by Tommy Whittle, and also Kenny Graham's Afro-Cubists and the various Poll Winners/All Stars LPs. O.K., enough for now ... will have to catch my breath before looking at Sweden, Italy and France. A word to put things into perspective, though: I do not go into European "Third Stream" because I still find it an evolutionary dead end and not always compatible with the core vitality of jazz (even in its Cool incarnation), and for maybe similar reasons I wasn't really able to get into André Hodeir's "Groups" efforts of the 50s either. I tried, at first considering them mandatory listening to explore French 50s jazz, but they just did not do that much for me. Anyway, Jazz CAN stand on its own and certainly can and does absorb influences from other styles of music, but IMO classical music hasn't that much to offer to the VITALITY of jazz and in many ways I find it alien to the improvised soloing and personal reworking character of jazz, and I also feel that a lot of that European "Third Stream" explorations came from the fact that many European musicians (German, in particular) keen on getting into jazz were classically trained and were unable or unwilling to shed this background but rather found it comforting to try to combine what they KNEW (classical music) and what they wanted to get at but felt they were not sufficiently comfortable with or capable of (freewheeling, outright swinging and improvisation in jazz), as if to fill those gaps with input from classical music to compensate. And Hodeir's often pompous way of writing that I have been exposed to in French jazz publications did not help either as his mindset and approach to me just is off what I find of interest in the essence (pun intended) of jazz (from that period) the way it gets ME. Yes, YMMV a lot, I know ...

This is going to be difficult. Apart from statements from other jazz fans and experts that I vividly remember, I have long since parted with what copies of "Jazz Podium" (the German jazz magazine) from those years or other music periodicals touching on jazz that I had, and of course I doubt that the radio jazz shows on the German SWF and SDR radio stations (where I remember often hearing jazz experts like Werner Wunderlich in that respect) are still archived anywhere. Maybe all this boils down to what Gheorghe hinted at. Euro-free jazz or avantgarde jazz of the 70s (onwards) really was a very special affair in a corner unto itself, and maybe all that hullaballoo about touting these Euro free jazz artists in the media over here was in part spurred by the fact that a certain breed of German jazz scribes or radio men all went haywire as soon as these Euro-free men (and women) hit the scene. These scribes seemed to have long been bothered by what they considered European jazz artists just "copying" U.S. musicans and styles (an unfair accusation IMO), and now there were those "new" Euro voices - so "this is THE THING", this is what it's all about, this is "THE original European jazz voice", this is "OUR emancipated Gernan jazz ART now" at last ... regardless of whether they retained any ties at all with how jazz had evolved. So they pushed it in many ways, and there were some among them who from that point on considered "non-free" (or even outright tradition-bound, e.g. by referring to the blues) jazz anachronistic or old hat at best. Up to the point of considering artists like Scott Hamilton "reactionary". See what I mean?

I wasn't so much thinking of musicians considering free or avantgarde music to be on a higher artistic level (no doubt many of the U.S. ones, in particular, acknowledge what went on before them style-wise) but of many (period and more recent) debates in magazines, radio, among fans, critics, etc. Claims that anything "free" or "avantgarde" was THE ultimate in artistic elevation and advancement in jazz were rampant over here in many (mediatic) circles from the 70s onwards. And once you have been exposed to that to a certain degree that just lingers on ... As for the "initial argument", it was made by Gheorghe, not by me. And if I understood him correctly then "free" players who do not konw their basics in "non-free" jam session contexts just have no point being in those jam sessions. Because for what THAT jam session was all about they just did not have the chops. Which I fully understand and agree with. And I also understand that there are jam sessions where there are strict limits to the kind of "crossover" (or similar) the ones who decided to jam are willing to digest. Which I do not find inappropriate either. To each his own (playing field ).

You know the strange thing is that after buying these two sets I gave them quite a lot of spins at two different intervals over a maybe 2-year period, and everything weas fine. And then, a couple of weeks ago, when I pulled them out again and spun them fairly often over a period of several weeks the one I mentioned started to play up (though not first time after playing it again). I will give these sets the benefit of doubt because the CD player I use right now is not a very recent one (though the other one where they play OK is even older and not necessarily a higher-end one) so something may be amiss. I am keeping my fingers crossed things will not get worse but I also wish they had used real CDs.

I dont' think that not being able to read sheet music is a criterion. Many jazzmen from more "traditional" styles of jazz (a strange term to use for hard bop or post-bop, for example) have never been able to do that either. BUT - as you probably are aware yourself - the comparisons you allude to only exist because there are SO MANY out there in this never-ending debate of the place of free jazz within jazz who INSIST that playing free or free players are on a HIGHER artistic level than all those who are not (and have never been) part of that free (or avantgarde or whatever ...) movement. Which is an argument that would only hold water if they were indeed able to do everything those who came before them in the "non-free" world (which would be on a "lower" artistic level according to their "reasoning") have done and they have exhausted ALL of that and would then go above and beyond that. But if they are not able to do that then what they do in the "free" or "avantgarde" world may well have its merits but it most certainly is not on a "higher" artistic level. In fact they have not gone higher but sideways in the evolution or development of the music and have just branched out in a different direction. Which is fine if this is what they prefer to do. There are many differnt branches in the evolution of any broader style of music. But they really should not - never ever - claim they are on a "higher" artistic level. Or else their lack of "chops" in the mastery of their instruments, technique, ability to swing outright, knowledge of all the changes, etc., would be very easy to hold against them by the musicians from the non-free realms of jazz who DO have these chops. Just my 2c but I stand by them.

I am not surprised. A couple of years ago I bought Soho Scene 61 (RANDB042) and Soho Scene 62 (RANDB035) and on looking closer at the back of the CDs they turned out to be CD-Rs too (at first I had not noticed). Lately disc 2 of the 61 volume has developed distortions on the final few tracks (similar to collapsing home-burnt CD-Rs) on one CD player though not on another one I tried it on. So it looks like the CD-R is not on its way out yet after all but something seems to be sub-optimal somewhere.

Considering what he has done and written (according to the WWW) it is amazing that these stylistic lapses should have happened to him. Careless writing, sloppy editing/proofreading or a case of being stuck in a writer's "can do no wrong" bubble, I wonder? Re- Mingus' financial matters, I think the word you are looking for is "accountant". Some of these financial aspects may be important in an artist's bio (cf. Woody Herman's later days, and probably Bobby Hackett too). As for Mingus, i don't know. But some people (writers included, possibly?) may attach more importance to financial matters than others ... In the case of Santoro, maybe his own background (as found on the internet) goes toward explaining it? "Growing up in a two-room basement apartment in Brooklyn, Gene Santoro didn't know people like him could become writers--never mind make a living at it ..."

I have not read that book. But the examples that you gave should not have happened in that way (because I guess you certainly did not expressly search for such details - so they must have been fairly blatant if you stumbled across them anyway). And judging by what I have read and seen elsewhere in books I had expected to be better or more fluent I can imagine the impression these things make. That's what I based my comments on.

Weak ... considering there are sites that claim he is an "acclaimed music critic". And a "Fulbright scholar" too. Strange ... His "Highway 61" book (that I just discovered trying to find out what his actual credentials are) has an interesting topic but I guess Id rather read it done by Allen Lowe, then.

Was the average cover thickness of the UK Capitol stereo pressing significantly larger than that of the contemporary mono releases? I've always found the "Clarifoil" lamination of those UK pressings a real nuisance as they tended to peel and flake badly, starting around the edges and extending inwards more or less rapidly, and the cover edges usually are frayed too as the covers were thinner than the US ones. (I guess it must be hard for a collector to find copies with pristine lamination) OTOH, ring wear was not that much of a problem (whereas with many US 50s cardboard covers (Capitol and others), one look at the cover was almost sufficient to start ring wear (with color rubbing off faster than you were able to look).

In fact I had not seen Mjzee's comments re-Prestige and the alternates when I wrote my reply to Larry Kart yesterday. Interesting to learn about where these alternates went ... But were the Progressive reissues actually withdrawn? Anyway ... good to see it would pay to look for a Prestige pressing too. And amazing to see that someone at that time cared enough about that niche music to sue about an "infringement".

Thanks for your explanation. I understand your point about "Knight Music". As for the playing times of the tunes, I did not re-check closer now but the differences look more or less like the differences between the Prestige pressings (according to the information on Discogs) and my Progressive LP (though the times indicated on your CD set do not match the vinyls totally exactly). So maybe Prestige had one set of takes and Progressive another one? The liner notes of the Progressive LP do not hint at any alternates, though.