Big Beat Steve

Hoping for you this will be a good investment over time. Because the price difference compared to the "standard" edition is sorta "steep" IMO.

Regardless of what you stood corrected for , you raised some valid (IMHO) points. I know I am nitpicking quite a bit here, but even after having checked the track list AND the list of artists/bands they deliberately omitted, I still felt puzzled a bit. Some of those acts on the list of excluded (our should I say discarded?) artists that they may have felt to be of "slight" or limited jazz content IMO can (almost) only be judged that way (to the extent that I have heard these acts on other records) by the fact that the compilers' idea of "jazz content" is a fairly conservative one. And this seems to favor traditional jazz and hesitates much more often about what was popular on the "swing" (or swing-infused) end of jazzish popular music in the 40s. That end of the spectrum in fact included quite a few artists that had a solid following in their day but fell by the wayside of the historians' way of writing about jazz of that era in later decades. And therefore passed into oblivion with the "general" jazz public. (And I am not even thinking of Louis Jordan there ... whose omission I personally can live with because his V-Discs have been around in easily accessible form on the reissue market before.) Adding this to the fact that building such a box set to a greater extent on such relative obscurities instead of mostly firm "name" favorites (of whom there remain many in the field of traditional jazz) might have hampered sales potential, you just end up with the artist selections they preferred. Understandable yet a pity in some cases.

Yes - really great. I made it a Christmas gift to myself when it came out. Recommended!

I.e. the one with the 500,000 guitars??

Good to know. 😄 But at least the reader seems to be getting his money's worth per page. Contrary to the typeface used in certain other books.

Thanks for linking this interesting review. This does give a better idea of what the book is all about. As for the following statement ... " ... the kind of jazz that was commercially viable in the black community in the 1960s has been overlooked in jazz history writing. Author Mike Smith says that the attention that might have been given to popular performers like singer Nancy Wilson, pianists Ramsey Lewis and others has instead been focused on the avant-garde, aka “The New Thing,” as personified by Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane, Albert Ayler and a few others. ... Smith’s thesis is that the need to “elevate” jazz from a popular musical form to one “equal” to European and other Western forms of music is the key factor. Early attacks on jazz he says, “led to a defensiveness and a need to seek legitimacy that continued into the 21st century.” This idea goes back to the 1920s, Paul Whiteman’s efforts to “make a lady out of jazz” perhaps being the most well-known. Smith believes this comes largely from the white community although historically, critiques of jazz have come from both races. Smith says that since media loves conflict, jazz writers’ attention has been more likely to be drawn to the drama surrounding people like Billie Holiday and Nina Simone. He writes that this music reflects a more non-conflictual perspective on black life; people just wanting to enjoy themselves, in communities that were more than just “ghettoes”; that there was not just struggle and trauma in people’s lives, but beauty as well. " ... I for one feel that the importance of this and the need to rebalance the scales accordingly in the way the history and evolution of jazz are presented and appreciated cannot be stressed enough. Trying to force jazz (in the larger sense) into a "classical music of the USA" pigeonhole (and limiting oneself to perceiving the music in this classically-trained "art music" sense) does not do the music justice at all. Just my 2c ...

A side note: Thanks for mentioning that "Jazz With A Beat" book! I had been totally unaware of this. (Cannot recall its release has been discussed here - or did I miss something?) Ordered it at once as it is right up my alley. Glad to see (according to the sales blurb on Amazon) that the author acknolwedges the small-group R&B/Jump Blues acts as part of how Swing evolved after 1945. Good to see the days seem to be over at last when the entire R&B field was dismissed as being unworthy of serious consideration as "jazz" (of the post-WWII variety). The "In With The In Crowd" book looks interesting too (like you said - as a follow-up to the "Soul Jazz" book, maybe ...). But for now I'll sit and wait to hear from others who have read it - just to get a few more impressions. BTW, one aspect I wonder whether it will be covered in the "In Crowd" book (or in "Jazz With a Beat"?) are those "Mainstream" jazzmen who did retain a following well into the 60s at least on a local/regional level, such as Buddy Tate and his Celebrity Club orchestra who according to various period sources had a long-running club residency. Style-wise (considering the usual stylistic categories that jazz scribes tended to think in) I'd guess he fell into the "No man's land of jazz" between R&B and Soul Jazz.

Yes - this is how this session looks in the "Bird Lore" discography: And this is what the booklet of the "Unheard Bird" 2-CD set says about that session. (I had totally forgotten I own this set. I really ought to have checked there first )

Just a wild shot ...: According to various discgraphies and liner notes the tunes were listed as - Segment - Diverse (Segment) According to these as well as the "Bird Lore" discography by Piet Koster, the matrix numbers are 294-3 for "Segment" and 296-3 for "Diverse (Segment)" This looks to me like "Segment" was recorded first and "Diverse aka Segment" later. So "Segment" is likely to have been the original title. As to who renamed "Diverse" - no idea, sorry ... But ... According to the "BIrd Lore" discography, only one of the two tracks called "Passport" from that session was originally released on 78 and on a 10" LP predating the 12" LPs. But both "Segment" and "Diverse (Segment)" were first released on a Verve 12" LP (MGV 8009). Wouldn't this indicate that whoever named these tunes, it very likely wasn't Bird?

In the CD reissue field, in all objectivity I'd have to rate some of the reissue packagings of Fresh sound and certain related labels in this category: For a while they had a habit of compiling, say, "the Complete Quartet (or Quintet or Sextet or Trio or Small Group) recordings" of this or that artist, which then resulted in half or two thirds of two or three original LPs that were combined into one single CD. Because the original LPs (sometimes even sessions) were not made up of one strict group lineup throughout but for some tracks added (or subtracted) one or two other musicians. So ... neither flesh nor fowl if you are trying to round up the discography of an artist whose original LPs either are out of your price range or are unavailable in other reissue formats. (Not that overall I'm unduly worried about this compilation quirk ... in recent years I've scored several of these "complete small-group sizte" thingies at the princely sum of 1 EUR each secondhand, and at that price I can live with those completist shortcomings. And yet it's a disservice to "serious" collectors.) I realize this outright statement opens the door wide for anti-P.D. label polemics by "some usual suspects of this place" 😄, but it just had to be said ... Next ... As for "reducing the risk for one not selling", as you correctly say, there is a similar annoying Fresh Sound CD packaging habit: Very often their "2 LPs on one CD" reissues (basically a sound idea) of relatively rare and obscure acts (that really take determination to be sought out by most jazz listeners who are in the market for reissues of 50s/60s LPs) combine one LP that had had already been out on vinyl by Fresh Sound, and then another one that is all new on the reissue market (because many of these artists and LPs are among those that no other reissue label anywhere else would ever bother with). So those who had already been in the market for these reissues in the vinyl days (as you guessed I'm one of them) often would be getting far less for their money if they wanted the "other" of the two LPs on each CD as well. I've not very often been tempted to pick up the CD anyway at the "New" price but this packaging policy of "nudging the customer into rebuying" is a bit of a drag anyway.

Understandable 😄 but there is a way out in case you do have space for more LP covers ... There is hardly any unused space left on the walls of my music room either, so I cannot really display any more (unless I start alternating), but it would be nice anyway ... Checking again these days I found I have accumulated a few original record covers through the years that are missing their LPs or EPs (or that - in one case - is a duplicate when I replaced a shot vinyl with a far better one). And I guess this happens with other collectors too. So what better use for those "orphaned" covers than to use them to decorate the wall as long as they are "in tune" with your record collection ?

But IMHO this is one reason why it cannot do any harm to any of those interested in the history of an art form (jazz in this case) to try to get access to CONTEMPORARY publications on the subject matter and read up on them and not rely too much (let alone only) on latter-day (re)interpretations by journalists (who often are no all-out historians in the first place) or authors. Some of these much more recent publications may offer historically important insights (if diligently researched and documented) but just as many may be grossly skewed by today's perspective and/or narrative.

I was a bit puzzled when in one of the very first paragraphs the author cited James Lincoln Collier's "The Making of Jazz" as a prime source for his statements. I had started reading it last spring but was somewhat put off by his sweeping generalizations that crop up time and again. So ... all to be taken with a huge grain of salt ... Though heroin addiction no doubt was widespread. As to which is cause, and which is effect ... that sounds like a different story ... OTOH, the following statement as such no doubt is true: "The 1950s were when jazz truly lost its black audience." But IMO this is due to mainly musical reasons in the first place. R&B, Jump Blues, City Blues (you name it ...) replaced jazz (i.e. Swing-style jazz) as the POPULAR music among the Black community and eventually evolved into Soul (with Soul Jazz being about the only style of jazz that was able to maintain a relatively firm footing in the Black community while that style lasted). Yet the days of jazz as a definite part of popular music were largely over soon after WWII. But where's the link of this loss of the Black audience and the widespread use of dope? I cannot quite see it in this article.

Checked the track listing more closely now ... From Disc VII onwards, above all, my curiosity (about new or off-the-radar discoveries) certainly is piqued ... Let's see what Jazz Messengers can come up with ...

Thanks Colin. I had not seen all this when I visited the website. Pity for the list of deliberate omissions. To me, some of the names sound intriguing or even tempting. From the point of view of making long-unavailable sides available, actually more so than (I have to use the term now 😄) some of the "usual 'name' suspects" who have been available in other packagings before. But as they say - one man's meat ... So - no Louis Jordan at all either? Not that this would worry me unduly (these performances HAVE been around as well), but did Mosaic actually find their jazz content to be insufficient too? To me, this somehow would sound like a somewhat narrowed-down definition of what they prefer to see in 40s jazz. Or is it a matter of them preferring to attract a maximum of buyers by rounding up a roster of as-big-as-possible names because rarities and obscurities are too much of a niche interest within what is already a niche market?

Just had a look at the Mosaic website and am wondering (and puzzled ...) as I did not see a complete artist and track listing so far: Certainly the list of artists is impressive so you cannot actually talk about "the usual suspects", but still I am wondering: There were many, many artists who were fairly well-known back then and part of the Swing scene of the 40s (and contributed to the V-Disc catalog) but fell by the wayside in the way jazz history of that period is covered by scribes (particularly by latter-day ones). So ... Will this set include a representative sampling of the offerings of small groups led by the likes of Loumell Morgan, Mary Greene, Page Cavanaugh, Vivian Garry, Les Paul etc.? That would contribute to filling long-glaring gaps in the history the Swing Era of those years. After all (and not least of all) some of the big "name" artists on V-Disc have already been round the block in various guises on the reissue market anyway. Not hedging my bets nor hoping for anything but I just felt this question deserved to be asked ...

Same thoughts here. RIP

As I have almost all the Vanguard material on vinyl this box set would be too much for me (and I guess I can live without alternates), but being able to get a copy of the booklet (as some additional in-depth background info) would be nice.

Further to my post of 16 June 2017, in the intervening years I have found (and added to my collection) a copy of the 1972 UK reissue of the original LP (all eight tracks of the session, compiled and annotated - by Albert McCarthy, no less - in a distanctly non-haphazard way 😄) on Vanguard VRS 8514 (distributed by RCA UK according to the fine print). So they did have their reissuing act together in the vinyl days at least ... and there would have been no need to reinvent the wheel (and goof - as Larry Kart pointed out) for the CDs ...

I'd have to check closely to locate LP compilations that clearly have been made obsolete by more thoroughly "curated" CD sets (but no doubt there are many). BUT - I'd disagree with your above statement. I remember there were many 2-LP sets from the 70s/80s that were part of "complete" reissue programs, but the playing time of each of these clearly exceeded the CD time limits. And at least for quite some time the majors owning the music did not see fit to go to the trouble of doing corresponding CD reissues that REALLY would have made the LPs 100% obsolete. Some of these included IIRC those 70s Bluebird twofers of RCA reissues from the Swing era.

Thanks for your numerous and always highly instructive writings on jazz. RIP

Agreed overall - from what I've heard by him. At times he may have been a bit too "eclectic", though. I have an original of the one linked below (where Hyman is on a lot of tracks in very different settings) sitting in my "to listen to before filing" crate (after a brief initial listen I decided to postpone closer listening to all 4 sides until I really was in the right mood for it all ) : https://www.discogs.com/master/1509825-Various-The-Seven-Ages-Of-Jazz-A-Live-Concert-Presentation @Gheorghe: I think you need to judge these rhythm sections a bit more from their period perspectives. What one would expect (particularly as a musician) style-wise TODAY is not necessarily what would have been the final word then. And above all, didn't Bird play with countless pickup rhythm sections (of no doubt dubious credentials in many cases) after 1950 when he was booked most often as a single but not with a regular band? So that rhythm section (probalby chosen not least of all for their versatility) cannot have been that inappropriate overall.

Google and Wikipedia (to start with the most evident sources) are your friends ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher_Henderson You know, there WAS a history of jazz before Bud Powell et al. More seriously, anyone else among the forumists with any opinions, impressions, knowledge about whether there is any more recent (and relevant) Fletcher Henderson research on the web? P.S.: I am aware that there is a book on Fletcher Henderson by Jeffrey Magee but I have never seen it and - apart from what I've discovered just now about this book on the "jerryjazzmusician" website - have no real impression of in what way it goes significantly beyond "Hendersonia". Anyone out there, by any chance, who has read BOTH books?

Thanks, Niko, for reminding me of this website. I discovered this site last year when I searched the internet for info on some ultra-obscure recordings from the 20s where (according to the liner notes on a 70s LP that I had bought) personnel identification was hazy. And lo and behold - the compiler of this site had gone to extreme efforts to shed some more light on these obscure recordings. I will check what he has to say about the Fletcher Henderson bands but would be surprised if he had not relied primarily on "Hendersonia" himself. But he may well have useful additional info on the Henderson discography.

I bought "Hendersonia" at a rather affordable price several years ago from a German online bookseller via the German branch of Abebooks, but except for browsing here and there I so far just did not muster the stamina to read through and digest that huge, huge mass of information included in its pages. But a while ago, prompted by a dip into the "A Study in Frustration" box set, I finally tackled that magnum opus on Fletcher Henderson again, promising myself to gradually work my way through the book (with no time limit, though ). But one thought has come up now: This book was completed and published some 50 years ago, and no doubt the author left no stone unturned and dug a mile deep for even the minutest snippets of information. And of course he had the advantage of being able to speak to a lot of key persons from the life of Hendetson who still were around then. Yet I wonder ... In today's world of the internet availability and exchanges of information are almost boundless, accessibility of source documents is greatly enhanced and much easier than it used to be in the pre-internet days. And no doubt amateur or pro researchers on almost ANYTHING are around somewhere out there. So I wonder - Have there ever been any sources (websites, blogs, publications) that may have added to the contents of "Hendersonia", maybe even correcting or adding information to that book (even though this likely would amount to details only, but still ...)? Or is "Hendersonia" still the very definite, 100% final word on the subject of Fletcher Henderson in each and every respect imaginable? Any opinions, findings, experiences, anyone? Thanks in advance.