AOTW October 16 -22

[JSngry]

I was reminded, in different ways, of early Gil Melle & George Russell. But whereas Melle's struck me as a naive-ish goofball whose naiveness almost inadvertantly led to hipness, and Russell as a man who didn't so much find himself as he did find some sort of parallel universe that was waiting for him to move into it (and wondering what took him so long to get there), Tatro's writing struck me (admittedly after only three listenings) as somewhat Geppetto-ish.

I will say this, though. I hear in Tatro's writing a keen grasp of the implications of the more "out" elements of the dissonance heard in the Mulligan-Baker front line, a dissonance that is there more often than one might think, and with more implications than most heard at the time. It's what he did with it that hasn't reached me yet. But whether or not I personally get it is neither here nor there.

I would like to hear the material played by a group of players who might be able to breathe more life into the charts. No matter how "advanced" the guys in that band might have been as writers, as players, I'm not sure that they (or anybody, really) was equipped to do anything more with music like this that play it "correctly". I definitely hear "reading", not playing, and that's understandable enough. But...

There may well be a life/world existing in this music that I'm not hearing yet, and I'd certainly be more than willing to listen to the charts again, played by people for whom this type writing is more "natural" after the passage of so many years and evolutions.

Any ideas as to who such a group might consist of today?

[Larry Kart]

I was reminded, in different ways, of early Gil Melle & George Russell. But whereas Melle's struck me as a naive-ish goofball whose naiveness almost inadvertantly led to hipness, and Russell as a man who didn't so much find himself as he did find some sort of parallel universe that was waiting for him to move into it (and wondering what took him so long to get there), Tatro's writing struck me (admittedly after only three listenings) as somewhat Geppetto-ish.

I will say this, though. I hear in Tatro's writing a keen grasp of the implications of the more "out" elements of the dissonance heard in the Mulligan-Baker front line, a dissonance that is there more often than one might think, and with more implications than most heard at the time. It's what he did with it that hasn't reached me yet. But whether or not I personally get it is neither here nor there.

I would like to hear the material played by a group of players who might be able to breathe more life into the charts. No matter how "advanced" the guys in that band might have been as writers, as players, I'm not sure that they (or anybody, really) was equipped to do anything more with music like this that play it "correctly". I definitely hear "reading", not playing, and that's understandable enough. But...

There may well be a life/world existing in this music that I'm not hearing yet, and I'd certainly be more than willing to listen to the charts again, played by people for whom this type writing is more "natural" after the passage of so many years and evolutions.

Any ideas as to who such a group might consist of today?

Well, we do have Art Pepper's reading of "Maybe Next Year" on the album "Smack Up," which is a good deal more warm and flexible rhythmically than Lennie Niehaus's on "Jazz for Moderns." But I've always felt that Tatro's writing and the interpretation of it by the guys who play on "Jazz for Moderns" was all of a piece, from several points of view. First, what you hear as "'reading,' not playing," I hear as an ultimately expressive intensity cum tension, though that tension may have been inevitable at the time (and may still be) -- this was HARD stuff to play and, far more so, to solo on; some of the solos were written out by Tatro, and at least one of those, Bob Enevoldson's on "Minor Incident" (not "Minor Intrusion," as I mis-stated above) is among the highlights of the album I believe. Second, perhaps the deal is that this is not really a "players" music in the sense that you have in mind. Also, there's the fact that IMO one these players does play his ass off throughout but in a way that perhaps backs up my sense that this is not really music to blow on -- that player being bassist Ralph Pena, who inhabits his more or less orchestral part (i.e. he's a "section" all by himself) with great taste and intensity. Shelly Manne also is full of zest but also, I'm sure we can agree, too precious at times, in his characteristic West Coast '50s manner. Getting back to the main point you made: Is this supposed to be, or to sound like, "natural" music? I don't think so, any more than Graettinger's "City of Glass" of "This Modern World" were.

[JSngry]

Graettinger sounds natural to me, perhaps the most natural music that the Kenton band ever played, even if it might have happened without them realizing it. Which is, perhaps, what that band needed to sound natural.

And I will say this - there's really no such thing as writing that can't sound natural in the hands of the right players. Even the worst writing can sound natural if played by players for whom that badness comes naturally (no wiseassness intended). And Tatro's writing is far from bad, to put it mildly.

I think you hit on something when you said that this was hard music to play. Indeed it is. And with this group of players, getting it right (which is one form of respect) might well have taken precedence over making it sound "natural" (which, of course, is another).

Of course, what "natural" is is such a subjective matter, not in the least shaped by one's individual experiences and expectations, that to debate whether or not these performances are or aren't such is futile. I'll just say that I'd like to hear the material revisited by a group of players from whom all the "outness" wouldn't be out at all. That might be interesting.

[Larry Kart]

Not to put fine a point on it, and also not to say that Tatro's "Jazz for Moderns" doesn't stand up on purely musical terms, but IMO this is a music that's about (or "about") anxiety -- the notes get fairly specific about the straightened circumstances of Tatro's life at the time (circumstances that arguably were not THAT bad and also were far from unique for someone of his background, era, and artistic inclinations, which is one reason why the mood aspect of this music is affecting to those it affects). And while I know it's a fool's game to generalize from titles, I think that the flat, borrowed from the surrounding culture titles of these pieces may well be speaking to us from the same anxious place: "Dollar Day," "Easy Terms," "Maybe Next Year," etc.

As for Graettinger sounding natural to you -- I'll go with "inevitable" and/or "necessary" but natural, whew! This is a music every note of which is designed to say STRANGE. Jim, you must live a colorful life.

[JSngry]

As for Graettinger sounding natural to you -- I'll go with "inevitable" and/or "necessary" but natural, whew! This is a music every note of which is designed to say STRANGE. Jim, you must live a colorful life.

Well, I have. Not sure that I do now, though. I've survived, let me put it that way.

What I mean is that Graettinger's "objectivity" resulted in a music that effectively captured the essence of what the Kenton band was really "trying to do" in a way that the more self-consciously "progressive" writers for the band were unable to accomplish. To me, his was the truest portrait of the Kenton World, capturing what it really was (or wanted to be) rather than what it thought it was. And like most unvarnished truths, it proved to be a bit more than the objects of it were ready to handle.

[Larry Kart]

As for Graettinger sounding natural to you -- I'll go with "inevitable" and/or "necessary" but natural, whew! This is a music every note of which is designed to say STRANGE. Jim, you must live a colorful life.

Well, I have. Not sure that I do now, though. I've survived, let me put it that way.

What I mean is that Graettinger's "objectivity" resulted in a music that effectively captured the essence of what the Kenton band was really "trying to do" in a way that the more self-consciously "progressive" writers for the band were unable to accomplish. To me, his was the truest portrait of the Kenton World, capturing what it really was (or wanted to be) rather than what it thought it was. And like most unvarnished truths, it proved to be a bit more than the objects of it were ready to handle.

Very interesting and pretty damn convincing. Thanks.

[chitownjazz]

I was putting together my Concord sale order the other day and looked up Yanow's AMG review of this album. Something about his negative assessment made it seem worth a try, especially at $2.98. So I threw it in the cart, and only now stumbled onto this thread. Now let's hope it actually shows up in my order. Gotta' love a forum that sports an extended discussion of an obscurity like this.

[Chuck Nessa]

Any ideas as to who such a group might consist of today?

Not a chance in hell of this happening. Those folks were not born.

[Larry Kart]

Not a chance in hell of this happening. Those folks were not born.

Exactly. In a similar vein -- except that the music there fits what Jim calls "foo foo" -- I think of the most West Coast album there is IMO, the Andre Previn-Shorty Rogers "Collaboration," originally RCA, probably now on Fresh Sound. The charts (by Previn and Rogers, detectably different in flavor but from the same menu) are like needle-point practical jokes and are played just that way by the co-leaders, Milt Bernhart, Bud Shank, Bob Cooper (Shank and Cooper doubling a lot on flute and oboe) Jimmy Giuffre, Curtis Counce, a guitarist, and Shelly Manne. The precision and (within the bounds you'd expect) zest of these players in this context is pretty amazing, and I don't believe that there are musicians alive who could play this music anywhere near this well, maybe even play it at all. Those who might have the virtuosity to do it couldn't get within miles of the right spirit -- a blend of game-playing and necessity. Too much of the wrong kind of self-consciousness and it's impossible; you need to have just enough. It's the same reason perhaps that no one, to my mind at least, has written a science fiction story that really works since the late 1950s: The world changed. OK, some post-1959 science fiction stories kind of work, but they're written between quotation marks, and their progeny are still-born.

[JSngry]

So this is all this music has to offer, the versions on this album?

Ok, alright then. Guess you had to be there.

[Larry Kart]

So this is all this music has to offer, the versions on this album?

Ok, alright then. Guess you had to be there.

I don't follow you here, Jim. Many jazz performances/compositions are templates for other, possible versions/variations, and some (not a whole lot, perhaps, but some) are not. Is that necessarily to the detriment of the latter music? I don't see why. Does that say something about the nature of that music? Sure. That's one of the things we've been talking about. You ask (you haven't, but you might) whether I can think of other examples in jazz of this. Well, I've already brought up Monk in relation to Tatro, and I'd say that while some of the small ensemble pieces from the Blue Note era obviously have a life as templates, there are others (e.g. "Criss Cross," "Skippy," "Hornin' In," "Carolina Moon") whose virtues are pretty closely tied to their original interpretations. I'd say that Dameron's "Fontainbleu" is another example. The original Prestige version is crucially dependent on the timbres. spirit, etc. of the men Dameron chose to play it (Dorham and Shihab in particular), and the later Riverside recording for a larger ensemble of early '60s NYC studio mainstays is not even close. And how about Jelly Roll Morton's Red Hot Peppers masterpieces? As it happens, there have been a few living variations on/recreations of Morton and similar primarily ensemble jazz material from the '20s -- in particular by France's Le Petit Jazz Band, founded by cornetist/arranger Jean-Pierre Morel -- but the principles that underlie Le Petit's success suggest why so many others have failed or have been contented to cop surface aspects only. You say (rather dismissively or just sadly?) "Guess you had to be there." Well, not literally, no. But you do have to divine the spirit in which the stuff was made and that still animates the way it works, if in fact it does work. But that may be the real problem here, that Tatro's stuff just doesn't work for/speak to you. And I think I can understand your feelings about "foo foo" -- at one point in the '50s, after I'd been turned on to Silver, Rollins, Blakey, et al., I literally threw into the trash almost every West Coast LP I had (including my copy of the Previn-Rogers "Collaboration," with its Jim Flora cover), as though the mere presence of those recordings in the house were a sign of moral/aesthetic weakness on my part.

[JSngry]

But you do have to divine the spirit in which the stuff was made and that still animates the way it works, if in fact it does work. But that may be the real problem here, that Tatro's stuff just doesn't work for/speak to you.

Well, I don't see it as a "problem", but yeah, you're right. It's not speaking to me in a way other than as a portrait of "white suburban angst" played by musicians who may or may not be tuned into that same feeling. I can't tell if they are or not.

I'm hip to the white suburban angst thing, but frankly, I think that somebody like Nelson Riddle nails it a lot more accurately and succinctly than Tatro does here. The whole thing sounds to me like the work of somebody who understands the concept of revulsion/revolt more than he does the nature of it. That might make for an interesting "human interest study", but it leaves me wanting.

I used the Geppetto analogy earlier, and I think that best summarizes my feelings about this music. I hear a creation of something desired/understood in the abstract but not in the flesh or spirit.

Our mileages obviosuly vary on this one. No biggie, eh?

[JSngry]

tx has indeed listened to Scott Walker and likes him quite a lot, although not to the degree his more fervent followers do. But tx does know what yer talkin' about and agrees.

[Larry Kart]

Jim -- I only know Riddle's arrangments for Sinatra et al. Is that what you have in mind, or are there albums of his own that you're thinking of? BTW, I listened to "Jazz for Moderns" on my way in to the Chicago Jazz Fest yesterday. Fascinates/delights me as much as ever.

[JSngry]

Jim -- I only know Riddle's arrangments for Sinatra et al. Is that what you have in mind, or are there albums of his own that you're thinking of?

Mostly, yeah. Although there is an album he did with, get ready for this, 101 Strings that is pretty damn dark, believe it or not. It's one big silent scream, that one is.

The thing about Riddle is that sure, there's a lot of fluff there. But ther's also a lot of "tranquilized screaming" going on, particularly in his voicings and reharminizations. Check out the second A-section of Sinatra's "Night & Day" for a particularly pungent (and blatant) example of the latter. And there's a chord he uses on Ella's "The Way You Look Tonight" that is just so out that it's hard to construe it as anything other than a colossal FUCK YOU directed at nobody in particular. And, of course, there's the entirety of Only the Lonely which is about as dark and brooding as mainstream white people of that time (or almost anytime, really) were/are able to get, and is where/what Scott Walker picked up on, I think, that one and Rosemary Clooney's Love.

But even in his "lesser" work, Riddle usually found a way to put some little something in his charts that either mocked the lightness that he was helping to sell or else outright called it a lie. It's very much a critique "from within", and if there's an underlying element of acquiescent impotence to it all, hey, that just adds to the poigniancy for me. Because the tragedy of the "American Dream" as sold in its commercial form isn't that it's hollow, empty, and based entirely on consumption/consumerism, it's that in spite of all that emptiness, once you're in, the only real way out is to go all the way out, and that no matter how uncomfortable it ends up making a lot of people, the perceived results of escape are even more uncomfortable than staying in. So a lot of talented people stay in. The real losers are the ones who go ahead and die inside. Cats like Riddle, who choose to remain trapped but still go about the business of letting their desperation be known, albeit in relatively oblique ways, fascinate me. Because there's still a struggle going on, even if it is a struggle where the final outcome is a forgone conclusion.

If you never got in, as it appears that Tatro hadn't at the time of this recording, then noting/mocking/whatever the emptiness of it all is relatively easy and, as is the case for me with much of Frank Zappa's work, runs the risk of combining angst with a certain level of envy. That's not a combination that usually works all that well for me. The combination of keen insight told with a primarily mocking attitude is undercut by the sense that those guys really "want in" at some level. Make up you mind one way or the other, live with the consequences, and "take it like a man". A silent scream hits me a lot harder than does a silent whine, even if the scream is one which we know is not going to make one bit of difference to the final outcome. I just don't hear that silent scream in Tatro's writing as presented on this album. Not quite a whine either, but definitely not a scream.

Riddle, otoh, was all the way in and knew there was palatable no way out for him. If Tatro was writing "about" Faust, Riddle was Faust. Graettinger, otoh, was the hopelessly guileless head case of a relative you take in for a little while out of sympathy and/or fascination who has neither the skills or the inclination to be less than totally honest about what they see going on in your house.

There's a reason why mental institutions are full of people put there by their relatives...

Edited September 3, 2006 by JSngry

[GA Russell]

I've been listening to this one for ten days now. The first time I heard it I thought that the atonality was a gimmick and I felt somewhat disappointed. But every time I listen to it I like it more and more. Now I like it a lot.

This reminds me of some others I have. The first is one that many here probably have as well - Shelly Manne's The West Coast Sound. The Manne album was also on Contemporary, and was recorded in 1953 and 1955. The Tatro was recorded in '54 and '55.

The following are on both albums: Bob Enevoldsen, Joe Maini Jr., Bill Holman, Jimmy Giuffre, Ralph Pena and Shelly Manne.

In the mid-60s in England, Edwin Astley did the music for two television shows whose soundtracks I have - Secret Agent and The Saint. The horn arrangements on those albums remind me very much of Tatro's harmonies here - so much so that I have to wonder if Astley had the Tatro album.

P.S. Having posted the above, I dug out the two Astley soundtracks and listened to them. "Upon further review", I'm not hearing Tatro in The Saint. It's in some of the Secret Agent songs that I hear the Tatro influence, particularly the Tatro song Dollar Day.

Edited September 18, 2006 by GA Russell

[mikeweil]

Seldom do I not get what Larry says in relation to any music, but such is the case here. I hear the "devices", but they just don't engage me at all beyond the "intellectual" level. I listened 3 times last night, and was left with a "well, ok, there it is" feeling and nothing more. Maybe it's the band, maybe they were so busy reading/interpreting the charts "correctly" that they didn't have time to put some flavor into them. Holman plays very nicely, though.

Maybe in time...

I finally got a copy of this late last year, for a decent price among the many over the top OOP OJC offerings, and my reactions, initially and today, are pretty much the same as Jim's. Rather "intellectual" music, and played with that type of attitude and feeling. Very interesting, but when I compare this to the guts Teddy Charles managed to put into his music at the time ...

[clifford_thornton]

I have a friend who's a bassist in a post-hardcore band who swears by this record.

Thanks for the reminder - need to score a copy.

[sidewinder]

Reminder to self to dig back out the Contemporary mono vinyl. :rsmile:

[Tom 1960]

I'm glad I came across this thread. I happened to hear a track off this album yesterday while listening to the KSDS program Jazz West Coast. The host happened to mention the impressive lineup of players and I figured having enjoyed what I just heard, I would see if there was any prior discusion of this release on the forum. Glad to read the many positive responses especially after reading the lackluster review from the AMG website. Looks like I will be getting this one in the not too distant future.

[JSngry]

Mission Impossible, Season 7, Episode 10: Ultimatum. Score composed and conducted by Duane Tatro. Nothing stands out, lots of standard cues and long-standing themes, and some "easy listening jazz" to be played ont he radio, except an opening sequence where are bad guy is planting his radioactive explosive device. That's got some pretty interesting writing while it's going on, and it kind of recaps itself at the end when the bed guy is disarming the same device, but, conclusion is seldom as interesting as exposition with this type of thing. But for those few minutes, Tatro's writing stands out, did for me anyway, as a cut above what was usually heard on MI at this point of its fading away. I noticed, I cared, and I enjoyed.

From a jazz-interest angle, though, the bad guy in this episode is named Jerome Cooper. Who knew?

It's on Netflix, and it's not over 2-3 minutes, this example isn't. Worth a checkout, imo.

[Teasing the Korean]

On 10/15/2005 at 9:39 PM, sidewinder said:

Originally released on Contemporary in 1956, this was Tatro's only session as leader with an all-star West Coast lineup. It has one of the coolest cover designs ever:

The album, featuring very progressive arrangements for the time (and building on some of the concepts from 'Birth of the Cool'), has been reissued by Fantasy under the 'OJC' imprint.

Scott Yanow's review on AllMusic almost deserves a thread of its own. Quote:

'This CD reissue has composer Duane Tatro's only album as a leader, and it is easy to hear why his services were not more in demand. Tatro's 11 originals have overarranged ensembles, plenty of humorless dissonance, and not much solo space for the members of his octet. In other words, the music is rather dry and dull. Despite the presence of trumpeter Stu Williamson, altoist Lennie Niehaus, Bill Holman on tenor and baritonist Jimmy Giuffre, very little of interest occurs, making this a badly dated effort.

Discuss... (starts Oct 16)

In TTK's universe, that Scott Yanow review is a ringing endorsement of the album!

Also, this is not the only album to come out under Duane Tatro's name:  Several of Duane Tatro's scores from The Invaders are now available on CD!

https://lalalandrecords.com/quinn-martin-collection-the-vol-2-the-invaders-limited-edition-2-cd-set/

Edited July 6, 2020 by Teasing the Korean

[mikeweil]

On 2.9.2006 at 5:19 AM, Larry Kart said:

Exactly. In a similar vein -- except that the music there fits what Jim calls "foo foo" -- I think of the most West Coast album there is IMO, the Andre Previn-Shorty Rogers "Collaboration," originally RCA, probably now on Fresh Sound. 

Still available, btw - will check it out.

[Larry Kart]

16 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

In TTK's universe, that Scott Yanow review is a ringing endorsement of the album!

Also, this is not the only album to come out under Duane Tatro's name:  Several of Duane Tatro's scores from The Invaders are now available on CD!

https://lalalandrecords.com/quinn-martin-collection-the-vol-2-the-invaders-limited-edition-2-cd-set/

The kid in the concept car on the cover is John Koenig, Lester's son. The Tatro album has never ceased to fascinate me. Yanow needs ear Braille. I talked to Tatro on the phone once some 30 years ago. Nice man,  pleased to hear that his work was still remembered fondly. He was going to send me a tape of the 12-tone guitar concerto he wrote for Howard Roberts, but something got screwed up and the tape he sent only included the intro to the radio broadcast of the concert, no music. There was nothing decorative or  chi-chi about Tatro's music. BTW, on Art Pepper's album "Smack Up" he plays (quite beautifully) Tatro's "Maybe Next Year" from "Jazz For Moderns."

 

[AllenLowe]

as I like to say, "the more Yanow the less you want."