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Miles - On the Corner and Beyond


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just curious ... why are you guys so concerned about Miles reissues specifically ?

......

all this money spent on reissued / unissued Miles would be much better spent supporting those amazing musicians making their living day-by-day from self-produced and marketed music.

If they are not going to reissue Miles any more, they won't reissue anything else, that's for sure. And the reissues help supporting the release of today's living and playing artists - you can't separate jazz from its recorded legacy.

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just curious ... why are you guys so concerned about Miles reissues specifically ?

i've got so much Miles i'll probably never listen to it by the end of my life. in fact, it's even worse than that. because i don't take notes when i'm listening to live Miles, i can't even remember which tracks are the really good ones. so it's not like i can go back and quickly figure out the best tracks to plug into when i need a Miles fix.

it's like these guys who collect tapes of live shows. eventually, they end up with so much they have no idea what to listen to. a lot of them can't even make good recommendations, outside of a few gems. they get confused, people start relying on lists on websites -- not necessarily having any relation to your personal preferences.

place Miles in the large spectrum of jazz musicians whose music is either unobtainium or worth its weight in platinum , and Miles got by far the best treatment of anyone. relatively speaking ... beyond what he deserves.

all this money spent on reissued / unissued Miles would be much better spent supporting those amazing musicians making their living day-by-day from self-produced and marketed music.

I agree with you that collecting can become an obsession where at the end it's only about possessing recordings and not about enjoying them. I wouldn't see any interest in having all Miles bootlegs, especially from his post-comeback period where almost everyone of his concerts was bootlegged.

But Miles' studio recordings from his electric period are something special. Many of them were unreleased, and so the the complete "Bitches Brew" and "Jack Johnson" sessions box sets were a major revelation for all Miles fans, unlike a collection of previously unreleased concerts, which are more predictable (and I include the Cellar Door concerts in that).

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Like Bobby Previte?

i have no knowledge of Previte's finances.

however, before spending $1000s on every Miles box extant you might want to consider a living jazz legend by the name of Freddie Hubbard who can no longer play and reportedly is in financial trouble.

there are hundreds of Hub dates as leader and sideman to choose from, many are some of the best jazz and funk ever layed down.

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I would venture that many of the people on this board who may be interested in this particular Miles box set also have more than a couple of Freddie Hubbard discs. It's not an "either/or" situation for me.

PS - I also happen to like Previte quite a bit, and have a few of his recordings as leader, sideman, and the Groundtruther stuff.

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Who's to say that some of us don't already have a

hubload of Hubbard? Man, being able to have Miles sides

collected together in sets with great sound, extra unreleased tracks,

beautifully made booklets with copious liner notes gets me all jiggy

both inside and out!

Man, I don't know where you're coming from. :wacko:

In addition to buying younger artist's work,

I love it when companies present collections of

our jazz past in lovingly produced sets - whether it's Miles, Trane, or others.

Our music is in our history - "Ancient to the Future" - "Duty Now For the Future"

and all that...

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I have to believe that the recent problems between the record comapny and the estate are as important to any delay or cancelation as BMG's reissue ideas. . . .

I love these boxes to see the development of the music. I've bought boots of much of the material that later comes out officially; I'm always eager to buy the official version. This will be case with the material in the On the Corner and Beyond proposed set.

I'm not that crazy about Bobby's OR Freddie's work actually, but I do support the work of some contemporary artists as well as more Miles and Monk et al.

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Who's to say that some of us don't already have a

hubload of Hubbard? Man, being able to have Miles sides

collected together in sets with great sound, extra unreleased tracks,

beautifully made booklets with copious liner notes gets me all jiggy

both inside and out!

Man, I don't know where you're coming from. :wacko:

In addition to buying younger artist's work,

I love it when companies present collections of

our jazz past in lovingly produced sets - whether it's Miles, Trane, or others.

Our music is in our history - "Ancient to the Future" - "Duty Now For the Future"

and all that...

maybe you should ask the question: who's making all the money off these endless re-celebrations of the music of Satchmo, Bird, Miles, Monk, Mingus, Trane, etc.

it isn't the artists, they're long gone.

if it's live, like Mingus Big Band, then cool, musicians who need the money get paid for the gig. if it's just more reannotated recompilations of multiple existing compilations of remastered digital masters of vinyl ... you gotta ask the question: how come the average jazz musician can't pay the bills ?

part of the answer is that this deification of a few great artists puts much of the jazz buying public into an obsessive-compulsive mode. they don't want to take risks. what's the risk in another Miles or Trane session ? none. it's all great.

but how does that help cats who are alive today trying to survive making music ?

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Baltostar, with all due respect, this thread is for discussion of a Miles box set that may or may not see the light of day.

If you want to talk about the effects of purchasing archival releases versus seeing contemporary artists perform, by all means start a thread about it!

I still think my previous comment stands - that many people who post on this board not only purchase archival releases, but also purchase music by current artists, AND see them live.

There are all sorts of threads here dedicated to just about any jazz artist you can think of, and many non-jazzers as well.

I don't believe people who are interested in this box will be purchasing it at the expense of *not* purchasing something new.

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Who's to say that some of us don't already have a

hubload of Hubbard? Man, being able to have Miles sides

collected together in sets with great sound, extra unreleased tracks,

beautifully made booklets with copious liner notes gets me all jiggy

both inside and out!

Man, I don't know where you're coming from. :wacko:

In addition to buying younger artist's work,

I love it when companies present collections of

our jazz past in lovingly produced sets - whether it's Miles, Trane, or others.

Our music is in our history - "Ancient to the Future" - "Duty Now For the Future"

and all that...

maybe you should ask the question: who's making all the money off these endless re-celebrations of the music of Satchmo, Bird, Miles, Monk, Mingus, Trane, etc.

it isn't the artists, they're long gone.

if it's live, like Mingus Big Band, then cool, musicians who need the money get paid for the gig. if it's just more reannotated recompilations of multiple existing compilations of remastered digital masters of vinyl ... you gotta ask the question: how come the average jazz musician can't pay the bills ?

part of the answer is that this deification of a few great artists puts much of the jazz buying public into an obsessive-compulsive mode. they don't want to take risks. what's the risk in another Miles or Trane session ? none. it's all great.

but how does that help cats who are alive today trying to survive making music ?

Anyone interested in On the Corner and Beyond is going to take risks. It's the Miles/Coltrane/Armstrong for Lovers crowd who aren't. And they probably aren't interested anyway.

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categorization and segmentation of ideas is a very boring trend that unfortunately is becoming the typical paradigm on the web as well as in real life. i find it extremely confining to think about these matters "locked in one box". no aware person's mind really works like that, so why artificially separate thoughts ?

also, these are discussion forums, not a dedicated web-page, or a product-review website, or a wikipedia entry. there's enough of that out there already.

i'm not trying identify those who do or do not sustain music and musicians in the here and now. and i'm definitely not telling people what to buy or listen to.

i am pointing out that jazz' growing obsession with its past is hindering its evolution into a meaningful music of the future. jazz of previous eras is more interesting to many because perhaps it had more social context and weight than today's music does. but currently there's actually quite a bit of space for modern jazz-derived or jazz-influenced musics played by today's musicians to make a significant social impact.

and i'll also add that i'm one of the guiltiest parties. i have all sorts of Mosaic boxes and other compilations ... but i rarely listen to them. what i do listen to is recent releases. more often than not , i'm disappointed, but i'll keep trying because that's how the economics of enabling innovators to innovate works.

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categorization and segmentation of ideas is a very boring trend that unfortunately is becoming the typical paradigm on the web as well as in real life.

Now you've used the "p" word while never touching the shift key. Oh well, thank you for not throwing a "zeitgeist" in there.

Damn, so these Miles sets don't produce enough beans worth counting for the suits huh? Did the metal spines blow the margins that much? :blink: Hard to believe, especially as On The Corner hipness quotient as the great misunderstood album probably has never been higher.

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  • 7 months later...

Someone posted this info on the Miles list:

Yes, a 6-CD On The Corner boxed set is in preparation (or rather a boxed

set featuring music from this period), although there are no details on

its release date. Its working title is BEY-ON-D The Corner and in addition

to featuring both released and unreleased material from the OTC album, it

will also include music from the Big Fun and Get Up With It albums

(including unreleased music).

Bob Belden is putting the set together (which is great news!) and Paul

Buckmaster has kindly provided him with some additional information. Paul

has also kindly allowed me to add some of his memories of those sessions

to the List and Bob kindly allowed the track listing to be included.

Paul Buckmaster:

“I was present, some time in late May 1972, when Miles overdubbed his

(electric) trumpet on Red China Blues. I had arrived a couple of weeks

earlier, and was by then a guest at Miles’ house. He had invited me to

the legendary CBS Studio “C” (the converted-church studio at 30th Street,

in Manhattan)*, and had driven us there in his Lamborghini Miura. He

played a couple of takes — I had the feeling he was doing this partly “for

fun”, and partly as a favour to the producer/artist.

Miles asked me to be out in the studio with him as he was laying down his

takes, and it is here that I noted something very interesting: his

electric horn was being played through a tall amplifier, a Yamaha, I

believe and it may well have had MILES DAVIS stencilled on the side (I

believe Yamaha had given Miles all the amplifiers for his bands at that

time, as a promotion).

Red China Blues Miles’ overdub session was sometime in the last week or so

of May. All the other parts, i.e., rhythm and brass, had already been

recorded at an earlier date, which I presume is the March 9th, 1972 date

you (Bob Belden) refer to.

The June 1st date CBS Studio, either “B” or “E” at 52nd Street, Manhattan,

New York (“C” is the converted church at 30th Street) (I played

electric ‘cello, either on this date, or on the June 6th date) — I was

plugged in to a Yamaha guitar amp., or possibly thru a Fender Twin Reverb,

thru a wah-wah pedal, and my sound sometimes resembled that of Miles’

electric horn — he commented on this, saying he couldn’t tell which was

which, at times. I personally was never able, later, to distinguish what I

was playing...it’s possible, even probable, that it never even got to

tape, but, at the time, I recall knowing what I had played and could hear

it in playback, or so it seems...it’s nearly thirty-five years ago!

The June 12th date. (According to http://www.jazzdisco.org/miles/dis/ this

was at CBS Studio “E”, 52nd Street, Manhattan, New York)

For the record, I composed certain parts of the thematic material for the

June 6th, and June 12th dates; Miles having given me the other parts in

dictation, either playing them at the piano in his house, or scat-

vocalizing them. When he did this, I sang and/or played these fragments

back to him, and he either corrected me, or said, yes, that’s right, at

which point I quickly jotted them down on score-paper. Miles encouraged me

to add sections, saying, now, Paul, take that to the next phrase, or next

part; I then added like a “B” section, or a bridge-like section, and so on.

The thematic, or motivic, material was for the front-line, and for the

keyboards, with some notated drum figures.

This is evident on all the recordings — except for the June 1st date,

which is much more just a general jam, with some notations from me as to

key-mode (E flat), some very sketchy front-line motifs, and some rhythmic

stuff — and I’ll confirm the exact numbers, where the thematic elements

from Miles and me occur, from the CDs.

The June 1st and June 6th dates both took place at the Columbia 52nd

Street studios; can’t remember which room, but I can remember the

elevators, and the coffee!

I do believe Chick Corea also plays synth (an ARP AXXE!) on the June 1st

date: I believe it was a very new device on the market, and he was trying

it out, discovering what it could do; I think he’s responsible for the

sounds that resemble colonic functions and flatulence — I have a vivid

memory of him pulling faces as he was playing those fart-like sounds,

shape-shifting his lips and mouth in various humorous contortions as he

played...

* I Googled CBS Recording Studio E, 1972, and got some great info: the

first page is: reevesaudio.com/vintagesessions.html There’s a couple of

photos of Frank Laico! Also, http://www.jazzdisco.org/miles/dis/ looks

like a very valuable resource!

Paul Buckmaster

MILES DAVIS BEY-ON-D THE CORNER

Note that these track listings and notes are still being finalised, but

you get a good idea of what's in store.

> CD1

>

> 1. Red China Blues (A) 4:07

> 2. Black Satin (E) 5:20

> 3. On The Corner/New York Girl/Thinkin' Of One Thing And Doin'

Another/Vote For Miles (B) 19:59

> 4. One And One © 6:09

> 5. Helen Butte/Mr. Freedom X (master) © 23:18

> 6. Big Fun (K) 2:30

> 7. Holly-wuud (K) 2:52

>

> track 1 from stereo LP master of GET UP WITH IT (KG 33236)

> tracks 2-5 are the stereo LP master of ON THE CORNER (KC 31906)

> tracks 6 & 7 are the masters for 45 single (4-45946)

> CD 2 (78:00)

>

> 1. On The Corner (session reel) (B) 19:41 from 6/1/72

> 2. On The Corner (tk 4) (B) 5:56 from 6/1/72

> 3. One And One (session reel) © 18:15 from 6/6/72

> 4. Helen Butte/Mr. Freedom X (session reel) © 23:37 from 6/6/72

> 5. Jabali (co 112578 ­ what take??) (D) 10:51 from 6/12/72

> CD 3 (70:00)

>

> 1. Ife (D) 21:34

> 2. Untitled “Test” (master edit ­ no co #)) (F) 14:28 from 8/23/72

> 3. Rated X (G) 6:51

> 4. Untitled (co 112991 tk 14) (H) 17:39 from 11/29/72

> 5. Untitled (co 112991 tk 15) (H) 9:13 from 11/29/72

>

> track 1 from stereo LP master of BIG FUN (PG 32866)

> track 3 from stereo LP master of GET UP WITH IT (KG 33236)

>

> Beyond the corner -2-

>

> CD 4 (58:00)

>

> 1. Billy Preston (I) 12:36

> 2. Untitled Original A (co 112995 - tk 1) (J) 12:48 from 73-01-04

> 3. Big Fun/Holly-wuud (co 113845 - tk2) (K) 6:30 from 7/26/73

> 4. Big Fun/Holly-wuud (co 113845 - tk3) (K) 7:03 from 7/26/73

> 5. Untitled (co 113846 tk 5 or 5b in protools) (K) 3:20 from 7/26/73

> 6. Untitled (co 117297 tk 4 need to edit) (M) about 16 min from of

9/18/73

>

> track 1 from stereo LP master of GET UP WITH IT (KG 33236)

>

>

> CD 5 (64:25)

>

> 1. Calypso Frelimo (L) 32:08

> 2. He Loved Him Madly (N) 32:17

>

> Both tracks from stereo LP master of GET UP WITH IT (KG 33236)

>

>

> CD 6 (74:00)

>

> 1. Maiysha (O) 14:53

> 2. Mtume (O) 15:11

> 3. Mtume (take 11) (O) 7:27 from 10/07/74

> 4. Untitled Original D (co 121772 tk 2 overlapped) (P) 18:39 from 11/6/74

> 5. Untitled E (co 121773 tk 14) (P) 12:00 from 11/6/74

> 6. Untitled Latin/Minnie Ripperton (co 121827 tk 7) (Q) 4:01 from 5/5/75

>

> tracks 1 & 2 from stereo LP master of GET UP WITH IT (KG 33236)

>

> Beyond The Corner -3-

>

>

> DISCOGRAPHY

>

>

> (A) Produced by Teo Macero and Billy Jackson.

> All other sessions produced by Teo Macero

>

> All sessions Stan Tonkel unless otherwise noted.

> Don Puluse (F)

> Russ Payne (J, M)

> Doug Pomeroy (K)

> Still need engineer and studio for B,C,D,E, H

> (A) Miles Davis (trumpet), Wally Chambers (harmonica), Cornell Dupree

> (guitar), Michael Henderson (electric bass), Al Foster, Bernard Purdie

> (drums), Mtume (congas), unknown brass ensemble. Arranged by Billy

Jackson

> (rhythm) and Wade Marcus (brass).

> Recorded on March 9, 1972 at Columbia Studio E, New York City

>

> Co 118834 Red China Blues KG 33236

> (B) Miles Davis (trumpet), Dave Liebman (soprano sax), Chick Corea

(electric

> piano), Herbie Hancock (electric piano, synthesizer), Harold Ivory

Williams

> (organ, synthesizer), John McLaughlin (guitar), Colin Walcott (electric

> sitar), Michael Henderson (electric bass), Jack DeJohnette (drums), Don

Alias

> (congas), Badal Roy (tables), Billy Hart (wood block, cowbell,

percussion).

> Recorded on June 1, 1972 at Columbia Studio ?????, New York City

>

> Co 112554 On The Corner/New York Girl/Thinkin’ One Thing And Doin’

Another/

> Vote For Miles KC 31906

> Co 112554-3 On The Corner (session reel) previously unissued

> Co 112554-4 On The Corner previously unissued

> Beyond the corner -4-

>

>

> © Miles Davis (trumpet), Carlos Garnett (tenor sax, soprano sax),

Bennie

> Maupin (bass clarinet)????, Herbie Hancock (electric piano,

synthesizer),

> Harold Ivory Williams (organ, synthesizer), David Creamer (guitar),

Colin

> Walcott (electric sitar), Michael Henderson (electric bass), Jack

DeJohnette,

> Billy Hart (drums), Don Alias (congas, percussion), Badal Roy (tablas).

> Recorded on June 6, 1972 at Columbia Studio ?????, New York City

>

> Co 112557 One And One KC 31906

> Co 112557-?? One And One (session reel) previously unissued

> Co 112558 Helen Butte/Mr. Freedom X KC 31906

> Co 112558-?? Helen Butte/Mr. Freedom X (session reel)

> Previously unissued

> (D) Miles Davis (trumpet), Carlos Garnett (soprano sax), Sonny Fortune

> (soprano sax, flute), Bennie Maupin (bass clarinet, flute), Lonnie

Liston

> Smith (electric piano), Harold Ivory Williams (organ, synthesizer,

electric

> sitar), Michael Henderson (electric bass), Al Foster, Billy Hart

(drums), Don

> Alias (kalimba, African percussion), Badal Roy (tablas).

> Recorded on June 12, 1972 at Columbia Studio E, New York City

>

> Co 112578 Jabali previously unissued

> Co 112579 Ife PG 32866

>

> (E) Miles Davis (trumpet), Cedric Lawson (organ), Reggie Lucas (guitar),

> Khalil Balakrishna (electric sitar), Michael Henderson (electric bass),

Al

> Foster (drums), Badal Roy (tablas), Mtume (bongos, bells).

>

> Recorded on July 7, 1972 at Columbia Studio ????, New York City

>

> Co 112691 Black Satin, part one KC 31906

> Co 112692 Black Satin, part two KC 31906

>

> Note: This title issued as “The Molester” on single 4-45709.

>

> Beyond the corner -5-

> (F) Miles Davis (trumpet), Cedric Lawson (organ), Reggie Lucas (guitar),

> Khalil Balakrishna (electric sitar), Michael Henderson (electric bass),

Al

> Foster (drums), Badal Roy (tablas), Mtume (congas).

> Recorded on August 23, 1972 at Columbia Studio B, New York City

> Don Puluse

>

> Co ????????? Untitled (test) previously unissued

> (G) Miles Davis (organ), Cedric Lawson (electric piano), Reggie Lucas

> (guitar), Khalil Balakrishna (electric sitar), Michael Henderson

(electric

> bass), Al Foster (drums), Badal Roy (tablas), Mtume (congas, percussion).

> Recorded on September 6, 1972 at Columbia Studio E, New York City

>

> Co 112591 Rated X KG 33236

> (H) Miles Davis (trumpet), Carlos Garnett (soprano sax), Cedric Lawson

> (organ), Reggie Lucas (guitar), Khalil Balakrishna (electric sitar),

Michael

> Henderson (electric bass), Al Foster (drums), Badal Roy (tablas), Mtume

> (congas).

> Recorded on September 6, 1972 at Columbia Studio ???, New York City

>

> Co 112991-14 untitled previously unissued

> Co 112991-15 untitled previously unissued

>

> Note: Co 112992 from this session is an untitled Michael Henderson tune

that does not include Miles Davis.

> (I) Miles Davis (trumpet), Carlos Garnett (soprano sax), Cedric Lawson

> (organ), Reggie Lucas (guitar), Khalil Balakrishna (electric sitar),

Michael

> Henderson (electric bass), Al Foster (drums), Badal Roy (tablas), Mtume

> (congas).

> Recorded on December 8, 1972 at Columbia Studio E, New York City

>

> Co 112993-10 Billy Preston KG 33236

>

> Note: Carlos Garnett is not audible on the issued take.

>

>

> Beyond the corner -6-

>

> (J) Miles Davis (trumpet), Dave Liebman (soprano sax), Cedric Lawson

(organ),

> Reggie Lucas (guitar), Khalil Balakrishna (electric sitar), Michael

Henderson

> (electric bass), Al Foster (drums), Badal Roy (tablas), Mtume (congas).

> Recorded on January 4, 1973 at Columbia Studio B, New York City

> Russ Payne

>

> Co 112995-1 untitled previously unissued

>

> Note: Michael Henderson’s bass part and second parts by Davis and

Liebman were overdubbed the following day.

> (K) Miles Davis (trumpet, organ), Dave Liebman (soprano sax), Reggie

Lucas,

> Pee Cosey (guitar), Michael Henderson (electric bass), Al Foster

(drums),

> Mtume (congas).

> Recorded on July 26, 1973 at Columbia Studio B, New York City

> Doug Pomeroy

>

> Co 113845 Big Fun single 4-45946

> Co 113845 Holly-wuud single 4-45946

> Co 113845-2 Big Fun/Holly-wuud previously unissued

> Co 113845-3 Big Fun/Holly-wuud previously unissued

> Co 113846-5 untitled previously unissued

>

> Note: The edited, issued titles “Big Fun” and “Holly-wuud” are derived

from takes 2 and 3.

> (L) Miles Davis (trumpet, electric piano, organ), Dave Liebman (tenor

sax,

> flute), John Stubblefield (soprano sax), Reggie Lucas, Pete Cosey

(guitar),

> Michael Henderson (electric bass), Al Foster (drums), Mtume (congas,

> percussion).

> Recorded on September 17, 1973 at Columbia Studio B, New York City

> Russ Payne

>

> Co 117296 Calypso Frelimo KG 33236

>

> Note: The master was assembled from five different takes.

Beyond the corner -7-

> (M) Miles Davis (organ), Dave Liebman (tenor sax), Reggie Lucas, Pete

Cosey

> (guitar), Michael Henderson (electric bass), Al Foster (drums), Mtume

> (congas).

> Recorded on September 18, 1973 at Columbia Studio B, New York City

> Russ Payne

>

> Co 117298-4 untitled previously unissued

> (N) Miles Davis (trumpet, organ), Dave Liebman (flute), Reggie Lucas,

Pete

> Cosey, Dominique Gaumont (guitar), Michael Henderson (electric bass), Al

> Foster (drums), Mtume (congas).

> Recorded on June 19, 1974 at Columbia Studio B, New York City

>

> Co 118537 He Loved Him Madly KG 33236

>

> Note: The master was assembled from five different takes.

> (O) Miles Davis (trumpet, organ), Sonny Fortune (soprano sax, flute),

Reggie

> Lucas, Pete Cosey, Dominique Gaumont (guitar), Michael Henderson

(electric

> bass), Al Foster (drums), Mtume (congas, African percussion, claves).

> Recorded on October 7, 1974 at Columbia Studio B, New York City

>

> Co 121652-10 Mtume KG 33236

> Co 121652-11 Mtume previously unissued

> Co 121653-1 Maiysha KG 33236

> (P) Miles Davis (trumpet, organ), Sonny Fortune (soprano sax, flute),

Reggie

> Lucas, Dominique Gaumont (guitar), Pete Cosey (drums-1, guitar ­2),

Michael

> Henderson (electric bass), Al Foster (drums -2), Mtume (congas).

> Recorded on October 7, 1974 at Columbia Studio B, New York City

>

> Co 121772-2 untitled -1 previously unissued

> Co 121773-14 untitled ­2 previously unissued

>

>

> Beyond the corner -8-

>

> (Q) Miles Davis (trumpet), Sam Morrison (tenor sax), Reggie Lucas, Pete

Cosey

> (guitar), Michael Henderson (electric bass), Al Foster (drums -2), Mtume

> (congas).

> Recorded on May 5, 1975 at Columbia Studio B, New York City

>

> Co 121827-7 untitled Latin Ripperton thing previously unissued

>

> Note: Co 121828 from this session is an untitled tune that does not

include Miles Davis.

>

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It is noteworthy that the box ends with studio recordings by the group in which Sam Morrison has replaced Sonny Fortune. I have been underwhelmed by live tapes with Sam Morrison with Miles, so it will be interesting to see what the studio session is like.

Am I missing something or will I be getting all of "Get Up With It" again? If the sound is improved, that could be O.K. anyway.

Edited by Hot Ptah
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You know the sound will be improved.

Wow. I hope it comes out. I have my doubts. But then I would, seeing the email from Belden that I did.

But man. . . I want it. I remember that it took about two or three years from when I saw the track listing for the Cellar Door set and when it came out. Hope that doesn't happen this go round.

Edited by jazzbo
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