NFL chat thread

[JSngry]

Stats can sometimes be deceptive.

Namath had the skills, just not the knees. Post-Super Bowl he was damn near always hobbled.

[PHILLYQ]

Bob Griese?

Bart Starr?

Roger Staubach?

Broadway Joe?

Staubach maybe.

Read something a while ago that Namath is actually one of the most overrated QBs. He had a couple of good years but pretty average career stats. He had a losing record as a starter (62-63-4), a 50.1% completion rate and a 65.5 career QB rating.

Compare that to a guy like Staubach (not the top tier, but in the discussion) who had an 85-29 record as a starter, a 57% completion rate and an 83.4 career QB rating.

Or a top-tier guy like Montana, who had a 117-42 record as a starter, a 63.2% completion rate and a 92.3 career QB rating.

A guy like Trent Dilfer has numbers more in line with Namath's: 58-55 record as a starter, a 55.5% completion rate and a 70.2 career QB rating. (Better than I expected, really).

If Namath's in the discussion, Dilfer should be, too. Which of course probably means Namath shouldn't be.

Keep in mind that QB ratings are largly meaningless- does anybody really know what they measure? I saw somewhere recently that Marc Bulgur rates higher than Johnny Unitas!

[papsrus]

Keep in mind that QB ratings are largly meaningless- does anybody really know what they measure? I saw somewhere recently that Marc Bulgur rates higher than Johnny Unitas!

QB ratings are largely meaningless? Please. It's simple, really:

Passer rating is determined by four statistical components, each of which is computed as a number between zero and 2.375. The benchmarks for these statistics are based on historical averages. If any of the raw components are beyond the limits of zero or 2.375, the component is set to limiting value of zero or 2.375 as the case may be.

* The component for completion percentage, C, is calculated as: {{{COMP \over ATT} \times 100 - 30} \over 20}

* The component for yards per attempt, Y, is calculated as: \left( { YDS \over ATT } - 3 \right) \times { 1 \over 4 }

* The component for touchdowns per attempt, T, is calculated as: { TD \over ATT }\times 20

* The component for interceptions per attempt, I, is calculated as: 2.375 - \left( { INT \over ATT } \times 25 \right)

The four components are then added, divided by 6, and multiplied by 100. Thus, the formula for passer rating can be given as:

{(C + Y + T + I) \over 6}\times 100.

See!

But really, whatever one might make of the formula , it basically measures passing efficiency. We know completions and TDs result in a higher number; incompletions and interceptions, a lower number.

Anyways, here's some more stats, fwiw:

Bulger -- 85.2 rating, 40-47 with a 62.3 completion %

Unitas -- 78.2 rating, 118-64-4 with a 54.6 completion %

Brett Favre -- 85.7 rating, 169-100 with a 61.7 completion %

I'd say W-L record should maybe be the prime consideration. Can a QB lead his team to victory despite adversity (or a crappy day at the office)? Both Bulger and (with at least one famous exception) Namath seem to come up short in that category.

Edited October 8, 2009 by papsrus

[Aggie87]

I'd say W-L record should maybe be the prime consideration.

I dunno, I can see both sides of that argument. Being on a perenially crappy team affects your W-L record, no matter how good a QB you may actually be.

Unless greatness isn't really a measure of talent/skill, but at least in part is a measure of being in the right place at the right time.

[PHILLYQ]

Keep in mind that QB ratings are largly meaningless- does anybody really know what they measure? I saw somewhere recently that Marc Bulgur rates higher than Johnny Unitas!

QB ratings are largely meaningless? Please. It's simple, really:

Passer rating is determined by four statistical components, each of which is computed as a number between zero and 2.375. The benchmarks for these statistics are based on historical averages. If any of the raw components are beyond the limits of zero or 2.375, the component is set to limiting value of zero or 2.375 as the case may be.

* The component for completion percentage, C, is calculated as: {{{COMP \over ATT} \times 100 - 30} \over 20}

* The component for yards per attempt, Y, is calculated as: \left( { YDS \over ATT } - 3 \right) \times { 1 \over 4 }

* The component for touchdowns per attempt, T, is calculated as: { TD \over ATT }\times 20

* The component for interceptions per attempt, I, is calculated as: 2.375 - \left( { INT \over ATT } \times 25 \right)

The four components are then added, divided by 6, and multiplied by 100. Thus, the formula for passer rating can be given as:

{(C + Y + T + I) \over 6}\times 100.

See!

But really, whatever one might make of the formula , it basically measures passing efficiency. We know completions and TDs result in a higher number; incompletions and interceptions, a lower number.

Anyways, here's some more stats, fwiw:

Bulger -- 85.2 rating, 40-47 with a 62.3 completion %

Unitas -- 78.2 rating, 118-64-4 with a 54.6 completion %

Brett Favre -- 85.7 rating, 169-100 with a 61.7 completion %

I'd say W-L record should maybe be the prime consideration. Can a QB lead his team to victory despite adversity (or a crappy day at the office)? Both Bulger and (with at least one famous exception) Namath seem to come up short in that category.

Is completion percentage really important? Would you rather 7-10 for 55 yards or 5-10 for 110 yards? Thanks for digging up how QB rating is calculated- that's a hoot!

[papsrus]

... Would you rather 7-10 for 55 yards or 5-10 for 110 yards? Thanks for digging up how QB rating is calculated- that's a hoot!

It is a hoot. And I'm not really a stat guy, but was just trying to pull some general stats.

I guess the only thing about the yards per pass thing is that it is a component of the QB rating formula.

But who the hell knows. To Aggie's point, you hear all the time that wins are what matter in the end, so I kind of go with that. It takes a great team to make a great QB, I guess. Testevarde had all the skills (except for that color-blind thing, which explains why he didn't complain about those creamsicle uniforms), but never managed to transform those skills into a whole lot of wins. His rating was around 75. His W-L record was so bad it seems to be unpublished. Was he a great QB? I don't think so.

Leadership, the ability to overcome adversity, the ability to recognize you shouldn't throw to your fourth-string receiver two plays in a row near the goal line when he's covered by Champ Bailey and your other guy is wide open both times ... those kinds of things are just as important as skill, I guess.

Edited October 8, 2009 by papsrus

[JSngry]

I watched Namath play. On a healthy day, he was truly great.

Of course, bottom line is that you gotta win and win consistently. But unless you ever saw him in action with his knees healthy (and really, after '71 or so, his knees were pretty much gone, at least as far as being the "old Namath" went), don't even begin to use stats as a measure of talent. The stats lie like that.

[JSngry]

I suppose my point is, ok "All-time Great"? Based on overall actual record, no, probably not". But "overrated"? No, not really, not in terms of ability.

I think "impaired greatness" might best sum it up.

[papsrus]

I watched Namath play. On a healthy day, he was truly great.

Of course, bottom line is that you gotta win and win consistently. But unless you ever saw him in action with his knees healthy (and really, after '71 or so, his knees were pretty much gone, at least as far as being the "old Namath" went), don't even begin to use stats as a measure of talent. The stats lie like that.

Yeah, he was a warrior. Had a lot of the qualities that make a truly great quarterback -- the arm, the courage, and a ton of babes. But stats are just a dispassionate measure of performance. Some more telling than others.

The responsibilities of the position for managing the game were different back then, too. So his leadership maybe comes into play more than it might for some QBs today, who are expected to largely get the play from the sideline, read the defense and adjust if necessary, and execute with precision.

The blood and guts part has kind of disappeared with the Brady rule.

[JSngry]

Yeah, I remember when Staubach was dissed for not - results be damned - calling his own plays.

Of course, it came out years later that the guy was not above disregarding the sent-in play when he felt the need to.

Coaches calling plays instead of QBs might me more "realistic", but damn, is it really football?

I suppose so, but...

[PHILLYQ]

The play-caling thing reminds me of a game a long time ago witht he Vikings and Tommy Kramer was the QB. They showed him in the huddle(remember when you used to see that on TV?!) drawing up a play in the dirt!

[Aggie87]

Cowboys are playing like crap today against the Chiefs. Fumbles, poor passes, you name it. Romo hasn't thrown a TD pass in almost 3 games at this point.

This is a testament to poor coaching. The Cowboys should be much better than 2-2 going into this one, and should be dominating the 0-4 Chiefs, kinda like the Giants are doing with the Raiders.

I think win-or-lose, I'd fire Wade Phillips after the game....and Jason Garrett. I don't know that Jerry Jones has the cojones to do that, but this is miserable.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Aggie87

[Soulstation1]

JaMarcus Fumble sucks

[Aggie87]

Broncos get my vote for the ugliest throwback uniforms. Blech!!

[Tim McG]

Broncos get my vote for the ugliest throwback uniforms. Blech!!

I second that.

[Tim McG]

So! When do the Niners start playing football?

What an embarrassment today at the 'Stick. Wow.

And ex-Lion Dre Bly needs to be sent down to the practice squad....as a tackling dummy. What a moron.

[Free For All]

Broncos beat the Pats in OT! Whodathunk?

[Jim R]

And ex-Lion Dre Bly needs to be sent down to the practice squad....as a tackling dummy. What a moron.

I was dying to see Singletary drag him off the field by some small body part... or AT LEAST chew him out. I never saw that happen, but then I was so disgusted that I left the room for awhile. That has to be one of the greatest displays of buffoonery that I've seen in... well, not that long, now that I think about it.

[Big Al]

Cowboys are playing like crap today against the Chiefs. Fumbles, poor passes, you name it. Romo hasn't thrown a TD pass in almost 3 games at this point.

This is a testament to poor coaching. The Cowboys should be much better than 2-2 going into this one, and should be dominating the 0-4 Chiefs, kinda like the Giants are doing with the Raiders.

I think win-or-lose, I'd fire Wade Phillips after the game....and Jason Garrett. I don't know that Jerry Jones has the cojones to do that, but this is miserable.

Nor would he be able to find anyone willing to be his simpering puppet the way Wade does. This team plays like a bunch that has lost all respect for its coach and shows even less respect for its owner.

I just wonder how much longer JonesCo is going to put up with Flozell Adams continuing to shoot their drives in the foot. Going on three years now and he's shown absolutely ZERO signs of improvement: still getting called for false starts, still making dumb plays that get flagged (holding, etc).

That said, Miles Austin is THE MAAAAAAN!!!! He and Jay Ratliff were the Cowboys saviors today. Which is a lot more than Jones, Phillips, Garrett, and Romo deserved today.

[Tim McG]

And ex-Lion Dre Bly needs to be sent down to the practice squad....as a tackling dummy. What a moron.

I was dying to see Singletary drag him off the field by some small body part... or AT LEAST chew him out. I never saw that happen, but then I was so disgusted that I left the room for awhile. That has to be one of the greatest displays of buffoonery that I've seen in... well, not that long, now that I think about it.

Exactly.

First the roughing call then the interception showboat bullshit on the 35 yard line...while holding the ball like a loaf of bread?

On the 35 yard line??? He needs to be taken out and slapped...viguously and numerous times.

What a moron.

Edited October 12, 2009 by GoodSpeak

[Tim McG]

Broncos beat the Pats in OT! Whodathunk?

Especially in those butt ugly uniforms.

I mean, gold and brown with stripes and a black helmet?

I hope they shot the stupid son-of-a-bitch who designed that uniuform....or at least seriously maimed him.

[Aggie87]

I hope they shot the stupid son-of-a-bitch who designed that uniuform....or at least seriously maimed him.

Those weren't designed by any one recent. Those are their throwback unis, as all teams are wearing for certain games. They are the original Broncos uniforms from 1960. They weren't popular then either, according to wikipedia.

[Aggie87]

Cleveland won today, with Anderson completing only TWO passes. I bet that doesn't happen often!

[connoisseur series500]

Broncos beat the Pats in OT! Whodathunk?

Not such a big surprise as Invesco field has been a house of horrors throughout Tom Brady's career. Still, that was all under Mike Shanahan. Game was close. Pats stop the Bronco offense at the end of the fourth quarter to force overtime. Then they win the coin toss, and the offense has another chance.

Overtime in the NFL is a casino crapshoot.

[Chalupa]

Cleveland won today, with Anderson completing only TWO passes. I bet that doesn't happen often!

The Browns score touchdowns about as often I score w/ my wife. Which ain't a lot, let me tell ya.

Edited October 12, 2009 by J.H. Deeley