*** Frank Zappa ***

[MomsMobley]

not saying you're in this category but there's a school of Beefheart fans that proffer that theory-- Don was the 'natural' weirdo genius, while Frank, while he tried...

Nothing could be further from the truth: they are both VERY weird dudes-- yet there are interviews where Don mentions Harry Partch (key influence on both, of course), so it's not like Beefheart was really some "pure" naif visionary.

check out the "Freak Out" list for one broad view of where Zappa was coming from and why-- OF COURSE-- because he was extremely focused, driven artist that would FRAGMENT into his pursuit of x # styles, sometimes discretely, usually collaged. Same dude (+ manager Herb Cohen) is putting out Lord Buckley AND Tim Buckley's best albums + for all his rigid discipline, Zappa also loved improvisatory, audience participation comedy... Sometimes it works, sometimes it's tedious and, oh yeah, Zappa also put out those Lenny Bruce albums that are often the same way.

I'll defend Flo & Eddie period too as expressionist extension of FZ liking to combine doo-wop & other group harmony with x # of other styles. I forget what the best version of "Billy The Mountain" is but... there is one.

Also, for ultra-sick heavy blues psyche jamming, listen to "Orange County Lumber Truck" from the "Ahead Of Their Time"-- I'm naming only official albums-- and note that East Texas native and all around art/music/lit dude who knows, Gary Panter, did THREE album covers for Zappa, and has noted how extremely mind-blowing "Uncle Meat" was for him because, disparate as it is, it is also the world.

Finally, for now, "Joe's Garage" is almost FZ's "Smile," except he didn't go (love to say) doo-doo in the sandbox and he FINISHED it; lyrics ain't quite the level of Van Dyke Parks but few things are.

Finally, Part II: "200 Motels" is the best, or second best, rock movie after, depending on if you put Raymond Pettibon "Sir Drone" at #1 or not.

[clifford_thornton]

Ptah is probably right but if one is immediately turned off / severely underwhelmed, it's hard to get the gumption to try and try again. But maybe I'll give it another shot.

And I know Beefheart was far from a "naif," albeit definitely, genuinely odd.

[7/4]

not saying you're in this category but there's a school of Beefheart fans that proffer that theory-- Don was the 'natural' weirdo genius, while Frank, while he tried...

Nothing could be further from the truth: they are both VERY weird dudes-- yet there are interviews where Don mentions Harry Partch (key influence on both, of course), so it's not like Beefheart was really some "pure" naif visionary.

I'm with the Beefheart school, but it's obvious they both have that crazy genius thing going on. I hear the Partch in the Beef, although I've never seen an interview where Don mentions him. Seems natural..sounds like desert music.

The Flo & Eddie band never did much for me, but 200 Motels is a riot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd1FN_pbDsA

Edited August 12, 2010 by 7/4

[MomsMobley]

Don on FZ & Partch--

http://www.beefheart.com/datharp/cook.htm

also Art Tripp = ED MARIMBA = total Harry Partch homage

what's wild is here's HP in San Diego '68--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOHBqFevy0k

Then a bit less than 20 years later, SD-native-- and former FZ tour-mate-- Tom Waits makes HIS Harry/Beefheart move with "Rain Dogs."

re: Frank's weirdness, the thing to remember is it ** was ** mediated by his extensive self-education--

Think of sitting down with those Walter Piston books, Nicholas Slominsky etc

And his engineering, and his band-leading, etc. FZ ** had to be ** somewhat more grounded, and mostly for the good-- which is why we have "Trout Mask Replica" and don't-- alas-- have the real "Bat Chain Puller."

Why the FZ Trust sits on this, still, is one of the abiding mysteries (of many when it comes to Gail.)

I gotta say, contrary to my expectations, the Zappa Plays Zappa band is pretty great-- highly recommended for those so inclined.

[JSngry]

The Flo & Eddie shit is great comedy-rock. Unlike Weird Al (who is pleasant - and meaningless - enough), it's real comedy & real rock.

IMO, of course!

[MomsMobley]

I should have said Tom Waits "Swordfishtrombones," of course, as TW's first mature Cali modernist weirdo move.

People beef at Zappa's 'crudeness' of satire etc later and maybe it is or maybe they don't get it BUT...

At the same time VERY few of his self-styled critics recognize or comment on FZ's consistent recognition of both high and erstwhile "low" cultures, and tho' he could be bitchy towards "rock"-- with good reason, of course-- you don't befriend and extol Johnny "Guitar" Watson if you're just concerned with appealing to teenager stoners etc. Nor, earlier, enlist Don "Sugarcane" Harris, or keep those doo-wop, R&B harmonies as part of your compositional palette l-o-n-g (in pop terms) after they were gauche.

THEN-- to have it together enough to eviscerate the Reagan-era, fucking Gore-approved PMRC idiocy AND still put on great live shows ('88 band, as noted above; some of the later studio work lacks the usual focus), compositions (the later synclavier work on "Civilization Phase III" is AMAZING).

It might be useful for jazz people to think of Zappa as something like a Mingus figure, tho' one with a lot more discipline and fewer (understandable) race burdens than later Chas. revealed.

AND FUNKIER THAN MILES TOO--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoJLMUBSMkc

note Jim Gordon on drums too, before the voices got too loud.

[7/4]

But I am also convinced Zappa is ** always ** best considered a composer,

Good idea.

Also, read Nicholas Slonimsky's accounts of FZ in both the "Baker's Dictionary of Musicians" and NS's autobiography, "Perfect Pitch."

I should!

I pretty much dig Zappa from when he was just cynical. It's when he got bitter that he lost me.

Yes...as far as lyrics go.

From the Zappa I've listened to - which isn't a lot, but some - I get the impression that he was trying too hard to be "weird," "difficult," or "quirky." It's the difference between your average CRI LP (not counting the Feldman, Partch, etc. titles) and, say, Xenakis. Xenakis didn't have to try!

I think Zappa's "classical" took a long time to become unique...he lifted too much in the early years (up through 200 Motels, at least).

[AllenLowe]

1) there's nothing to "get." Listen to the Yellow Shark to see how Zappa's path, as a non-academic modern composer, was almost the ONLY path with which to avoid the kind of studied modern-ness that has so severely harmed Amercan music (and which I hear in David Baker's work, to cite one old academic; also which I hear creeping into a fair amount of good non-academic musicians' work like that of Rosenwinkle and some others) -

2) in person the band was a fantastic amalgam of chaos and control - a perfect Zappa creation. Hard to replicate on recordings (best concert: 6/14/68, McMillan Hall, Columbia U).

3) repeating number one - Zappa's music has an edge and life that separates it from the "serious" world. And much as he complained, it owed a lot to the vernacular, rock and roll world for this,

4) Buy the Mystery Disc. A Perfect intro to FZ

5) as as a guitarist, I think FZ was over-rated; listen closely and you'll hear that he's a pattern player, like a lot of guitarists

6) to me (and I know this is a minority opinion here) Beefheart is a big nothing, a one-trick pony who made his point and than made it over and over again. Still, he gave up some good ideas. Just did not turn them into silk.

[mjzee]

I'll stick to what I wrote in the other thread: Zappa's inspired creativity peaked in the '68 - '71 timeframe. After the accident, there was the Wazoo tour (which I caught at the Felt Forum in '72), but then something in him seemed to have changed. Whatever the source of creativity is, it slowed down to a trickle in him. Overnite Sensation, Apostrophe are perfect examples of this. Even when he had a smokin' band (the Brock/Duke agglomeration), the material didn't rise to their talents: monster movies, I get it, Frank watched a lot of monster movies in the '50's, but it sounded like he was groping for subject matter to write about. And then, starting with Zoot Allures, it really went downhill. I found Sheik Yerbouti shocking in its vacuousness, similar to my hearing Beefheart with the "Tragic Band" in 1973. I liked the Drowning Witch album, and Utopia had some nice moments, but Them Or Us was the end for me. Count me among the "them," I suppose.

[Д.Д.]

Something seems to be not right with the distribution of Zappa's Ryko CDs (at least judging by amazon.com listings). Earlier this year quite a few disappeared temporarily for quite some time, and now some seem to be available only as amazon CD-R editions ("Guitar", for example). I don't know the details of the ZFT / Ryko agreement; but I think there was some acrimony there. Ryko overtake by Warner Bros. also didn't help, perhaps. ZFT has the original tapes, and is allowed to release their versions of the albums in Ryko's possession (albeit using different mastering and under different titles, and without using the original artwork - like in the case of MOFO and Lumpy/Money). Anybody knows anything specific?

[MomsMobley]

ah, but listen closely in other ways and he's pretty damn good at mixing up tones, rhythm, compositional nous etc. there are very few jazz dudes who had all that going for (regardless of instrument) and even less in rock-- someone might say Fripp comes closest but i've never cared enough to figure it out. and yes, Frank definitely "needed" rock n roll if only functionally, i.e. to work and make a band but almost everything else could be taken straight from blues, r&b, pre-"rock" rock & roll-- save the cover of "We're Only In It For The Money" of course.

Ever hear this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7sRApEhJDE

And for "Zoot Allures" non-fans--

My link

i'll defend/explain Thing-Fish later too.

5) as as a guitarist, I think FZ was over-rated; listen closely and you'll hear that he's a pattern player, like a lot of guitarists.

[Hot Ptah]

This topic should probably be merged with the larger Zappa thread here. Sorry, Big Al, that your thread got diverted.

I'll stick to what I wrote in the other thread: Zappa's inspired creativity peaked in the '68 - '71 timeframe. After the accident, there was the Wazoo tour (which I caught at the Felt Forum in '72), but then something in him seemed to have changed. Whatever the source of creativity is, it slowed down to a trickle in him. Overnite Sensation, Apostrophe are perfect examples of this. Even when he had a smokin' band (the Brock/Duke agglomeration), the material didn't rise to their talents: monster movies, I get it, Frank watched a lot of monster movies in the '50's, but it sounded like he was groping for subject matter to write about. And then, starting with Zoot Allures, it really went downhill. I found Sheik Yerbouti shocking in its vacuousness, similar to my hearing Beefheart with the "Tragic Band" in 1973. I liked the Drowning Witch album, and Utopia had some nice moments, but Them Or Us was the end for me. Count me among the "them," I suppose.

But....the 1988 big band tour. The recordings from that tour have some amazing moments, especially on 'Make a Jazz Noise Here.'

[7/4]

Something seems to be not right with the distribution of Zappa's Ryko CDs (at least judging by amazon.com listings). Earlier this year quite a few disappeared temporarily for quite some time, and now some seem to be available only as amazon CD-R editions ("Guitar", for example). I don't know the details of the ZFT / Ryko agreement; but I think there was some acrimony there. Ryko overtake by Warner Bros. also didn't help, perhaps. ZFT has the original tapes, and is allowed to release their versions of the albums in Ryko's possession (albeit using different mastering and under different titles, and without using the original artwork - like in the case of MOFO and Lumpy/Money). Anybody knows anything specific?

No. If that's really happening, I guess the ZFT took the next step in fucking up Frank's legacy.

[bertrand]

I bought three from Oldies for $7 each recently, and they had quite a few other titles in stock. Not sure what the deal is.

Listened to side 2 of Sleep Dirt today. 'The Ocean Is the Ultimate Solution' is one of Zappa's greatest performances. No one ever seems to mention it. Who else is on this record anyway?

Bertrand.

[7/4]

I bought three from Oldies for $7 each recently, and they had quite a few other titles in stock. Not sure what the deal is.

Listened to side 2 of Sleep Dirt today. 'The Ocean Is the Ultimate Solution' is one of Zappa's greatest performances. No one ever seems to mention it. Who else is on this record anyway?

Bertrand.

Frank Zappa - guitar, synthesizer

Patrick O'Hearn - bass

Terry Bozzio - drums

http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/The_Ocean_Is_The_Ultimate_Solution

then the whole album:

Frank Zappa (guitar, keyboards)

Dave Parlato (bass)

Terry Bozzio (drums)

George Duke (keyboards)

Patrick O'Hearn (bass)

Ruth Underwood (percussion)

Chad Wackerman (drum overdubs on CD)

Thana Harris (vocals overdubs on CD)

Bruce Fowler (all brass)

James Youman (bass)

Chester Thompson (drums)

http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Sleep_Dirt

Sleep Dirt and especially Studio Tan are favorites! The original mixes without overdubs are on Läther.

Edited August 17, 2010 by 7/4

[Д.Д.]

I bought three from Oldies for $7 each recently, and they had quite a few other titles in stock. Not sure what the deal is.

Listened to side 2 of Sleep Dirt today. 'The Ocean Is the Ultimate Solution' is one of Zappa's greatest performances. No one ever seems to mention it. Who else is on this record anyway?

Bertrand.

Frank Zappa - guitar, synthesizer

Patrick O'Hearn - bass

Terry Bozzio - drums

I remember having read that FZ was apparently contemplating a tour with this trio (he was suing Warner Bros, and was not sure he could finance a larger band). A shame it never happened, probably would have been the most improv-heavy Zappa's tour.

[Big Wheel]

I bought three from Oldies for $7 each recently, and they had quite a few other titles in stock. Not sure what the deal is.

Bertrand.

This is probably the result of a repricing that Ryko did for its Zappa titles last winter (see this post upthread). When I was researching this nobody really gave a good explanation for the price drops, so I'm still not sure whether Ryko is trying to dump overstock to prepare for a big deletion of its Zappa catalog, or whether it was just a more routine move on their part.

[mjzee]

This topic should probably be merged with the larger Zappa thread here. Sorry, Big Al, that your thread got diverted.

I'll stick to what I wrote in the other thread: Zappa's inspired creativity peaked in the '68 - '71 timeframe. After the accident, there was the Wazoo tour (which I caught at the Felt Forum in '72), but then something in him seemed to have changed. Whatever the source of creativity is, it slowed down to a trickle in him. Overnite Sensation, Apostrophe are perfect examples of this. Even when he had a smokin' band (the Brock/Duke agglomeration), the material didn't rise to their talents: monster movies, I get it, Frank watched a lot of monster movies in the '50's, but it sounded like he was groping for subject matter to write about. And then, starting with Zoot Allures, it really went downhill. I found Sheik Yerbouti shocking in its vacuousness, similar to my hearing Beefheart with the "Tragic Band" in 1973. I liked the Drowning Witch album, and Utopia had some nice moments, but Them Or Us was the end for me. Count me among the "them," I suppose.

But....the 1988 big band tour. The recordings from that tour have some amazing moments, especially on 'Make a Jazz Noise Here.'

I've never heard the music from that tour, so it's nice that there's always unheard music to aspire to. The last time I saw Frank was at the Felt Forum in '84 or '85. I found it to be dull and depressing... more the Ray White and Ike Willis show than Frank's. Frank had this glassy stare all night; it seemed he knew his cues when to solo (and the rhythm always dropped down at those moments to that slow lope like in the bridge to Inca Roads...and it would then speed up to the song's original tempo after his solo), almost like he was trotted out at those moments. With the benefits of hindsight, I wonder whether he was sick and on meds even at that point.

If you want a taste of what I'm referring to about the glassy stare, I remember seeing it all over "Does Humor Belong In Music?"

[Big Wheel]

If you want a taste of what I'm referring to about the glassy stare, I remember seeing it all over "Does Humor Belong In Music?"

I can see why this edition of the band is not to everyone's tastes, but when they were on during that night at the Pier, they were ON. That version of Whippin' Post kills!

[7/4]

that was the only time I heard Zappa perform....crap seats too, I'm glad the video came out.

[Hot Ptah]

The 1988 tour featured a five piece jazz horn section and a lot of improvisation, including trumpet, trombone and saxophone solos. Again, 'Make a Jazz Noise Here' is the best example, although 'The Best Band You Never Heard in Your Life' has its fine sections.

[Д.Д.]

The 1988 tour featured a five piece jazz horn section and a lot of improvisation, including trumpet, trombone and saxophone solos. Again, 'Make a Jazz Noise Here' is the best example, although 'The Best Band You Never Heard in Your Life' has its fine sections.

The only problem with this tour for me is that FZ's solos were probably some of the least interesting since the sixties, IMHO.

[7/4]

I bought three from Oldies for $7 each recently, and they had quite a few other titles in stock. Not sure what the deal is.

Listened to side 2 of Sleep Dirt today. 'The Ocean Is the Ultimate Solution' is one of Zappa's greatest performances. No one ever seems to mention it. Who else is on this record anyway?

Bertrand.

Frank Zappa - guitar, synthesizer

Patrick O'Hearn - bass

Terry Bozzio - drums

I remember having read that FZ was apparently contemplating a tour with this trio (he was suing Warner Bros, and was not sure he could finance a larger band). A shame it never happened, probably would have been the most improv-heavy Zappa's tour.

wouldn't that be something...he probably would have sung a lot of songs and guitar solos, the keys would be missed.

[AmirBagachelles]

Freak Out is one of the all-time great records, in my opinion. I very highly recommend you buy, borrow "or check out the library copy of" the expanded 4 CD MOFO audio journal. It tells a big chunk of the story of the very good, sharp, beloved first Mothers.

The Flo & Eddie stuff, music and "lyrics", was well-conceived, honest projection/parody of the era of rock star deification. Sizzling FZ band too.

[mjzee]

Freak Out is one of the all-time great records, in my opinion. I very highly recommend you buy, borrow "or check out the library copy of" the expanded 4 CD MOFO audio journal. It tells a big chunk of the story of the very good, sharp, beloved first Mothers.

The Flo & Eddie stuff, music and "lyrics", was well-conceived, honest projection/parody of the era of rock star deification. Sizzling FZ band too.

I agree. The Flo & Eddie band was firing on all cylinders. I saw them about a year before the Fillmore East album; it was a great show. I think they inspired Frank to do some great writing (didn't they get a credit on a Zappa album for contributed material?). "Eddie Are You Kidding?" is just a perfect song. "I'm coming over shortly/because I am a portly/You promised you could fit me in a 50-dollar suit/What!/Eddie are you kidding?/No! No!"