Surprising "Out To Lunch" LP News

[RDK]

I'm sure this will upset the usual suspects, but for what it's worth...

From Joe Harley, originally posted at SHTV.tv

Today marked one of the most exciting mastering sessions we’ve had yet during the (now year long) Music Matters Blue Note reissue project.

As you know this past summer we were very disappointed to find that the cutting master to Eric Dolphy’s superb masterpiece “Out To Lunch” was damaged in spots and marked as “DNU”.......meaning Do Not Use. To say that we were heartbroken would be an understatement since this iconic session has been heralded since it first appeared in 1964 as one the finest, if not THE most fully realized early avant-garde jazz sessions of all time. Call it “new thing”, call it “avant-garde”....call it whatever you want, Out To Lunch lives large in recorded jazz history.

Several months ago when I happened to mention to Blue Note maven Michael Cuscuna our disappointment about the unusable tape, he said “tell you what.....I’ll request every known copy of that tape from the vault, including the “DNU” cutting master. Let’s get them all up there and you put this up again and see what the problem is. Sometimes the tapes are mismarked, or tape library engineers over-reacted to something, you never know. We’ll all find out something.”

Several weeks ago Steve wrote here about two crates of Blue Note tapes arriving at AcousTech for Music Matters. One entire CRATE consisted of every tape of “Out To Lunch” in the EMI library. As we dug through it I began to get excited......SO many tapes, and all of the same session. And there was our old friend the “DNU” tape taunting us again. There was the severe looking note on the box about the damage to the tape, the drop outs and the distortion.

Then Steve said, "Joe, this "do not use" tape is marked DOLBY A! It's just a worn out dupe. I am sure we can do better than that...Wait a minute boys, I think we have something.”

Steve found an old pristine tape marked R.V.G. that had never been checked out of the tape library. (All tapes come with a log so you can see who used it, when, and for what purpose.) Steve said this is something we should very definitely check out immediately.

We put this tape up and Kevin hit the play button. Track one “Hat and Beard” took off and Ron and I sat there with our mouths hanging open. Steve turned around and said “Wow gentlemen....what have we here?”. Kevin said “that’s some of the best sound I’ve ever heard on a Rudy tape!”. I was truly stunned. I know this record like the back of my hand. Like Ron, I have the pristine LP and I have the first very excellent Japanese King version. But I have NEVER heard this music sound come vibrantly alive as it was on this playback.

This tape sounds amazingly transparent and effervescent.

We were all on a sonic and Dolphy-ized high as the sides progressed. Steve and Kevin can comment if they wish, I don't want to speak for them, but I think that this was an exciting day at AcousTech!

You can hear Rudy trying to anticipate everyone’s next move on this challenging and beautiful music. Remember, he was recording and mixing this music live, direct to two track. He had to mix this on the fly. At times, he gets surprised when Bobby Hutcherson slams his mallet on the vibes or Tony Williams pops a bomb on his bass drum. Those who know the this record know all of these spots well. In their own way these add to the excitement of the session.

By the time we finished cutting side 4, we decided to press our luck and walk the lacquers immediately across the alley to Dorin, RTI’s ace plating man. He said, “you guys have great timing. I just finished with another set of lacquers. Sure, give me what these and I’ll do them right now.” We all looked at each other and thought that Eric Dolphy himself must have been watching over this one. One of RTI’s great benefits if the ability to plate the lacquers quickly, but this was ridiculous. Our “Out To Lunch” lacquers were going to get plated less than 10 minutes after the cutting finished. Wow!

I assure you all...we’ll do our best to get “Out to Lunch” pushed up in the release schedule so that you can see what all the fuss is about early next year.

This was a holiday surprise of the highest order for Ron and myself today. We can't wait to share it with you all!

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=169082

[blajay]

okey dokey Doctor Jones

[sidewinder]

Great news, will look forward to it.

[AllenLowe]

damn, this makes me mad - *****

*****just wondering, why would this make anybody mad? I'm out of the loop here -

[Shawn]

Constantly pulling out master tapes and wearing them out for all the myriad of reissues on the market.

[AllenLowe]

gotcha - in that case they should let the kids play with them -

[RDK]

Constantly pulling out master tapes and wearing them out for all the myriad of reissues on the market.

I'll start...

[JSngry]

Did they say Side 4? Is this going to be one of those SUV-priced 45 RPM jobs? They get the best sounding source materail since Day 1 and that's all they're putting out?

Dude, I'll get mad about that!

[clifford_thornton]

Yeah, that's the deal.

Unless they're putting two sides of ONJO covers of OTL on there...

[.:.impossible]

Yeah dude. This $50 45rpm bullshit is really starting to piss me off. Of all the Blue Note sessions, this is the one that I would want in multiple formats/ remasters, etc.

$50 to take the platter off my turntable everytime I want to lisen to Gazz... I'm tempted, but I have a feeling I'm going to pass. And that sucks cuz the initial post had me going.

Did they say Side 4? Is this going to be one of those SUV-priced 45 RPM jobs? They get the best sounding source materail since Day 1 and that's all they're putting out?

Dude, I'll get mad about that!

[B. Clugston]

Did they say Side 4? Is this going to be one of those SUV-priced 45 RPM jobs? They get the best sounding source materail since Day 1 and that's all they're putting out?

Dude, I'll get mad about that!

Or maybe this is similar to Hoffman's "discovery" of the "lost" Sidewinder tape.

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php...mp;#entry825173

[JSngry]

Yeah dude. This $50 45rpm bullshit is really starting to piss me off. Of all the Blue Note sessions, this is the one that I would want in multiple formats/ remasters, etc.

$50 to take the platter off my turntable everytime I want to lisen to Gazz... I'm tempted, but I have a feeling I'm going to pass. And that sucks cuz the initial post had me going.

Did they say Side 4? Is this going to be one of those SUV-priced 45 RPM jobs? They get the best sounding source materail since Day 1 and that's all they're putting out?

Dude, I'll get mad about that!

Word.

I mean, I'd pay $20.00 or so for a regular 33 1/3 RPM LP Record Album of Genuinely Good Quality if the source material is really all that. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[RDK]

No, you're not the only one by any means. There's a chance, of course, that the same mastering will later be used for an SACD release (they keep promising...). I suppose if the tapes really are that improved it might result in another BN CD job down the line - but the way the biz is going these days I wouldn't count on it.

The sad fact is, unless the market for these changes, I think they almost have to go the 4-side 45 rpm route, call them "collectible," and make these distinctive enough to sell (again) by targeting the audiophile/LP market.

Soon enough, I'm sure, needle drops will be making the rounds on the blogosphere.

[.:.impossible]

I mean, I guess I'd buy an SACD just to hear, but I don't know. I'd prefer to have a pristine 180g 33 1/3RPM. I would easily pay $20 for this.

I have a feeling I'd let the SACD pass me by as well, the more I think about it.

I have three. I just recently bought a player that reads them. Of course I listened to them as soon as I set the thing up, and they sound great.

I'm just not dedicated enough to buy premium formats like SACD and 45RPMs. There are plenty of Blue Note albums that I would buy all over again to hear on quality vinyl, but I'm not ever going to be stupid about it. No offense to anyone who buys the 45s. $50 to hear/own music that I already own/have heard had better increase the value of my home.

Then again, I could probably use an ear upgrade or something because I am constantly reading complaints from people about recordings that sound just fine to me... sometimes fantastic! I listen to VBR Ragas all the time and really feel enveloped by the sound, so what do I know...

[Chuck Nessa]

No, you're not the only one by any means. There's a chance, of course, that the same mastering will later be used for an SACD release (they keep promising...). I suppose if the tapes really are that improved it might result in another BN CD job down the line - but the way the biz is going these days I wouldn't count on it.

The sad fact is, unless the market for these changes, I think they almost have to go the 4-side 45 rpm route, call them "collectible," and make these distinctive enough to sell (again) by targeting the audiophile/LP market.

Soon enough, I'm sure, needle drops will be making the rounds on the blogosphere.

If they do an SACD from the same mastering it means it was converted to digital, unless they roll the tapes yet again. If the 45's are "true" they are analogue. Sad facts about marketing options are why I bitch about these "boutique" issues. Why stress an original source for small returns.

BUT it seems to take something like this situation to alert "the master" that Dolby A tapes are not originals.

[porcy62]

BUT it seems to take something like this situation to alert "the master" that Dolby A tapes are not originals.

Yeah, Dolby HX Pro was much better at those analogue time.

Edited December 19, 2008 by porcy62

[captainwrong]

Did they say Side 4? Is this going to be one of those SUV-priced 45 RPM jobs? They get the best sounding source materail since Day 1 and that's all they're putting out?

Dude, I'll get mad about that!

Or maybe this is similar to Hoffman's "discovery" of the "lost" Sidewinder tape.

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php...mp;#entry825173

Paging Ron McMaster.

And on the subject of the 45RPM series, I have to wonder how much longer the market is going to support them, or even if the market is supporting them currently. I know Hoffman has announced an Impulse series, but I wonder if it will ever happen. Aside from the economy tanking, there's going to have to be some buyer's fatigue setting in at some point. If the market can't support regular CDs of unique titles at $13 a pop, how can it support $50 sets of music everyone owns already released four a month?

Plus, and I'm trying not to sound flip saying this, but I know a lot of those are going to speculators and Steve Hoffman fans who really don't care about the music so much as the object. Recently, there was a bit of a blow up over the "limited" edition of these things and some titles being reissued or intentionally held back or some such. I know there isn't any way to tell for sure, but it'd be interesting to know who has been buying these things because of the music vs. the collectability or cult of Hoffman and if the fact that some of the Prestige titles have been reissued in box sets or magically a few new copies appear after they sold out is going to dampen future sales and how much.

My local store has optimistically stocked a bunch of the Music Matters titles and I've cashed in some store credit for two, someone else bought one and that's been about it. Granted, it's a general record shop and not an audiophile boutique, but I can't help wonder if this scene is replaying in other shops.

Of course, of the two titles I got, one isn't the one I started out with because every copy I opened looked like it had a chalk outline the inner sleeve ingrained in the vinyl. My shop was very good about exchanging the records, but the person I emailed with at Music Matters was a little off putting about it. Sorry, if I'm spending premium dollars for a record, it better be as close to flawless as possible. I expect that kind of shit from an $8 Scorpio not a $50 "audiophile" pressing and that is why I'm not buying anymore of either series, original Out To Lunch tapes found or not.

Sorry for the tangent and the rant.

[clifford_thornton]

No, that tangent is important and one reason why I'm keeping my early Liberty pressing of the damn thing in the first place.

[AllenLowe]

this may sound strange, but when I listen to older music, unless it's really badly mastered in the original, I have no problem listening to it like people listened to it when it first came out - now, this is not a general principle for me, and sometimes it's really nice to hear something well restored that sounded like crap originally; but in general, the Prestige and Bluenote reissues sound perfectly acceptable to me in the incarnations in which I have found them on CD -

another good thing about this for us old guys is that it has great nostalgia value - "hey it sounds just like it sounded on my crappy fold up record player in 1968. Now, if I could only bring back the Vietnam War and the Kent State killings and that illegal incursion into Cambodia."

Edited December 19, 2008 by AllenLowe

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

this may sound strange, but when I listen to older music, unless it's really badly mastered in the original, I have no problem listening to it like people listened to it when it first came out - now, this is not a general principle for me, and sometimes it's really nice to hear something well restored that sounded like crap originally; but in general, the Prestige and Bluenote reissues sound perfectly acceptable to me in the incarnations in which I have found them on CD -

(nods sagely)

another good thing about this for us old guys is that it has great nostalgia value - "hey it sounds just like it sounded on my crappy fold up record player in 1968. Now, if I could only bring back the Vietnam War and the Kent State killings and that illegal incursion into Cambodia."

and being unemployed every few months and .... (censored)

MG

[Big Beat Steve]

this may sound strange, but when I listen to older music, unless it's really badly mastered in the original, I have no problem listening to it like people listened to it when it first came out - now, this is not a general principle for me, and sometimes it's really nice to hear something well restored that sounded like crap originally; but in general, the Prestige and Bluenote reissues sound perfectly acceptable to me in the incarnations in which I have found them on CD -

Very sensible attitude ...

[michel1969]

this may sound strange, but when I listen to older music, unless it's really badly mastered in the original, I have no problem listening to it like people listened to it when it first came out - now, this is not a general principle for me, and sometimes it's really nice to hear something well restored that sounded like crap originally; but in general, the Prestige and Bluenote reissues sound perfectly acceptable to me in the incarnations in which I have found them on CD -

:tup

[Teasing the Korean]

"Out to Lunch" is a very apt phrase to describe those who are buying these overpriced releases. There's a sucker born every minute.

[Claude]

Steve Hoffman and Kevin Gray (the mastering engineers) are currently working on two Blue Note reissue projects for two different companies, Music Matters and Analogue Productions. Both release 45rpm LPs sets (no duplication of titles) , but Analogue Productions has decided to release hybrid SACDs as well.

Unfortunately "Out to lunch" is on Music Matters, so it will be on vinyl only.

Of course nobody needs to have these LPs. The first CD reissue (McMaster mastering) sounds fine too. But don't stick to the RVG CD (the current CD version on the market), the sound is awfully compressed.

Edited December 22, 2008 by Claude

[six string]

this may sound strange, but when I listen to older music, unless it's really badly mastered in the original, I have no problem listening to it like people listened to it when it first came out - now, this is not a general principle for me, and sometimes it's really nice to hear something well restored that sounded like crap originally; but in general, the Prestige and Bluenote reissues sound perfectly acceptable to me in the incarnations in which I have found them on CD -

:tup

+1

I'm happy with my Liberty pressing too, but then I'm listening to the "music" and not the "recording. I'm just pleased that my copy is in great shape. I know these guys, especially the people at Music Matters are trying to do the right thing by these great albums but I really don't think 45 RPM is necessary. I realise the sound is potentially better at the faster speed but I too don't want to have to get up after every song or two to flip the record over and they really should be transfering these albums to digital format at the same time for future use rather than playing the tapes yet again at a later date for a cd or sacd version. Hell, they ought to make needle drops of these 45s and make them available to those who don't have a turntable.