Kenny Dorham

[Claude Schlouch]

Hi folks,

Our friend KD left us 38 years ago. A sad date!

RIP

[John L]

And his music hasn't aged a day.

[Larry Kart]

BTW, that reminds me: In his liner notes to "Kenny Dorham, The Flamboyan Queens, NY, 1963"(Uptown), the normally astute Bob Blumenthal refers to Dorham as "a journeyman trumpet player," which made smoke come out of my ears. One can guess at what Blumenthal meant by this -- that Dorham never became that famous/celebrated/what have you. But the term "journeyman" means: "1) A person who is not a master of his trade or business 2) Reliable but not outstanding worker."

Now in his early days with the Eckstine band, Dorham was not a top-drawer section man, nor would that ever be his forte. But once KD got his thing together, he was regarded by musical peers and fans alike as a highly individual "poetic" figure on the instrument and was typically hired by others, when he wasn't the leader himself, to bring his special lyricism to the proceedings -- not only as a soloist but also as a key voice in ensembles (e.g. on Tadd Dameron's original recording of his "Fontainebleau," where his exquisitely shaded playing is much more to the point than the work of Charlie Shavers on the Riverside recording of the piece, though Shavers is one of the great trumpet players per se). So -- KD was not a "journeyman," not at all.

[Dan Gould]

BTW, that reminds me: In his liner notes to "Kenny Dorham, The Flamboyan Queens, NY, 1963"(Uptown), the normally astute Bob Blumenthal refers to Dorham as "a journeyman trumpet player," which made smoke come out of my ears. One can guess at what Blumenthal meant by this -- that Dorham never became that famous/celebrated/what have you. But the term "journeyman" means: "1) A person who is not a master of his trade or business 2) Reliable but not outstanding worker."

Wait a minute - that sounds awfully close to the definition of "hack". We need Alex's astute eye/ear for hackery - hope he sees this.

Time to pull out some KD, for sure.

[Mark Stryker]

Speaking of the new Flamboyan disc, does anyone have a definitive answer to the disconect between the Jan. 15, 1963 date listed on the back and Blumenthal's reference in the notes to a June recording date? My instinct says the earlier date makes more sense, because "Una Mas" appears here under the title of "My Injun from Brazil." If this gig was in the summer, several months after "Una Mas" was recorded, then it would be more logical for Dorham to have been using "Una Mas" as the title by then.

In anycase, anybody know the correct details?

Edited December 5, 2010 by Mark Stryker

[Stereojack]

BTW, that reminds me: In his liner notes to "Kenny Dorham, The Flamboyan Queens, NY, 1963"(Uptown), the normally astute Bob Blumenthal refers to Dorham as "a journeyman trumpet player," which made smoke come out of my ears. One can guess at what Blumenthal meant by this -- that Dorham never became that famous/celebrated/what have you. But the term "journeyman" means: "1) A person who is not a master of his trade or business 2) Reliable but not outstanding worker."

I've talked to Bob about this CD, and I know he thinks very highly of it. I suspect that you are correct in that Bob meant to praise Dorham, but probably made a poor choice in using the word "journeyman".

Let's face it, Larry - you wanted that liner note gig!

[T.D.]

I once worked summers in an auto parts plant, and "journeyman" was a positive term, used for people who had completed apprenticeship training in a "skilled trade". The related dictionary meaning is "One who has fully served an apprenticeship in a trade or craft and is a qualified worker in another's employ". I've always considered the term far less pejorative than the almost universally implied "mediocrity".

[flat5]

about post #5

On "Kenny Dorham & Jackie Mclean - Inta Somethin" (1961) it's called "Us".

Don't think this helps the discussion though.

Of the versions I've heard this is my favorite.

Is there a recording of Kenny's tenor sax playing?

[Stereojack]

Speaking of the new Flamboyan disc, does anyone have a definitive answer to the disconect between the Jan. 15, 1963 date listed on the back and Blumenthal's reference in the notes to a June recording date? My instinct says the earlier date makes more sense, because "Una Mas" appears here under the title of "My Injun from Brazil." If this gig was in the summer, several months after "Una Mas" was recorded, then it would be more logical for Dorham to have been using "Una Mas" as the title by then.

In anycase, anybody know the correct details?

The liner notes were written and submitted several years ago, before checking a calendar proved that the date is actually in January. Blumenthal told me that the date on the copy he was provided was handwritten, and was unclear whether it said Jan or Jun. It was later nailed down, but the notes were not revised. Knowing that the date was in January, we now know that this is the earliest Joe Henderson we have on record.

[Mark Stryker]

Speaking of the new Flamboyan disc, does anyone have a definitive answer to the disconect between the Jan. 15, 1963 date listed on the back and Blumenthal's reference in the notes to a June recording date? My instinct says the earlier date makes more sense, because "Una Mas" appears here under the title of "My Injun from Brazil." If this gig was in the summer, several months after "Una Mas" was recorded, then it would be more logical for Dorham to have been using "Una Mas" as the title by then.

In anycase, anybody know the correct details?

The liner notes were written and submitted several years ago, before checking a calendar proved that the date is actually in January. Blumenthal told me that the date on the copy he was provided was handwritten, and was unclear whether it said Jan or Jun. It was later nailed down, but the notes were not revised. Knowing that the date was in January, we now know that this is the earliest Joe Henderson we have on record.

Thanks for the details. Great playing from KD and Joe on this record -- amazing on many levels, not least of which is Joe's maturity. No wonder he so quickly became a leader on the scene.

[Larry Kart]

I once worked summers in an auto parts plant, and "journeyman" was a positive term, used for people who had completed apprenticeship training in a "skilled trade". The related dictionary meaning is "One who has fully served an apprenticeship in a trade or craft and is a qualified worker in another's employ". I've always considered the term far less pejorative than the almost universally implied "mediocrity".

Even then, that's far from the first term you'd use to describe KD or even an accurate one. Early on he didn't have quite enough orthodox technique or chops to be the jazz equivalent of an auto parts plant "journeyman" -- i.e. a successful section-man in a big band (though of course a big band is where he was). Instead, he became a remarkable "one-off" -- and all the better for it.

[JSngry]

Not sure where the idea comes from that Dorham didn't have the skills to be a section player. Did he ever get fired for not cutting the parts?

In most big bands, the "jazz chair" usually plays the lower section parts, mainly to keep the chops fresh for soloing, and also to recognize that a good jazz player is usually not going to be a good lead or backup lead player.

Dorham's tone was never lead-player bright, but in the days we're talking about, he certainly had nimble enough fingers, sure phrasing, and I'm pretty sure he could read ok. He sure doesn't sound like a "street" player, that's for sure.

I think he could have adequately (at least) played a 4th trumpet part in any "normal" big band had he wanted to. But I don't think he wanted to.

Edited December 5, 2010 by JSngry

[Larry Kart]

Not sure where the idea comes from that Dorham didn't have the skills to be a section player. Did he ever get fired for not cutting the parts?

In most big bands, the "jazz chair" usually plays the lower section parts, mainly to keep the chops fresh for soloing, and also to recognize that a good jazz player is usually not going to be a good lead or backup lead player.

Dorham's tone was never lead-player bright, but in the days we're talking about, he certainly had nimble enough fingers, sure phrasing, and I'm pretty sure he could read ok. He sure doesn't sound like a "street" player, that's for sure.

I think he could have adequately (at least) played a 4th trumpet part in any "normal" big band had he wanted to. But I don't think he wanted to.

OK -- I'm extrapolating from these two things: 1) the section work in the Gillespie and Eckstine bands of Dorham's time (though I don't if there's recorded evidence of him with Dizzy and only few sides was a part could be fairly ragged (though the Eckstine with band also could be razor sharp, as on its Jubilee broadcasts from early 1945 -- but these without Dorham); 2) on Dorham's early small-group recordings, he seems as yet a fairly awkward player technically. If so, I would guess that while he probably was adequate in a section (never said he was "street" player; he knew his stuff, just had some trouble getting it out early on and would of course grow immensely, especially in terms of ideas), he was in those bands in good part because he was a bop-oriented player (had to have a fair number of those on board) who knew the guys.

Ira Gitler, who is very knowledgeable about that era (he was there) and not inclined to knock people inordinately, refers to Dorham's solo on Eckstine's "The Jitney Man" as "inchoate."

In any case, my original point was otherwise.

[Swinging Swede]

I think some of the best Dorham technically was with Bird. But I think he was the wrong choice as replacement for Clifford Brown in the (Brown-)Roach quintet. When he isn't playing it still sounds like the Brown-Roach quintet, but as soon as he comes in, he sounds woefully inadequate in comparison. Not that anyone really could have filled Brownie's shoes, but I read that Conte Candoli was offered the spot to replace Brown and turned it down, but that is something I could have seen work out much better.

[Peter Friedman]

Kenny Dorham has long been one of my very favorite trumpet players. For me, his solos frequently follow the guidelines of Lester Young in that they tell a story.

One album that isn't mentioned very often has some marvelous playing by Dorham. I am referring to - THE BARRY HARRIS SEXTET - BULLSEYE - PRESTIGE.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

well, he went on a journey through the greatest periods in jazz, but he was one of the best ever

who knows if KD even named it that, didnt DJs back in the day just make up names for heads they didnt know what they were?

[AllenLowe]

my first look at the title of this in Larry's post, as "The Flamboyan Queens" shook me a little bit - add a "t" to the club name and you'll see what I mean - I though it was one of those Female Impersonator clubs -

on KD, I've always though that his work on the Bird broadcasts, if not completely mature, was still unique and individual, and indicated a different kind of lyricism than the kind Miles was after. I find KD, on those braodcasts, to be instantly identifiable.

and in the one conversation I had with Chet Baker, KD was the ONLY trumpet player that he, interestingly enough, cited as an influence.

[Larry Kart]

I vaguely recall a DB Blindfold Test where Max Roach's response to a track from "Two Horns, Two Rhythm" was, "Some of things KD plays are so abstract." Spot on IMO.

[jlhoots]

Kenny Dorham has long been one of my very favorite trumpet players. For me, his solos frequently follow the guidelines of Lester Young in that they tell a story.

One album that isn't mentioned very often has some marvelous playing by Dorham. I am referring to - THE BARRY HARRIS SEXTET - BULLSEYE - PRESTIGE.

I agree.

Great session.

[clifford_thornton]

I was at a Mexican wedding recently where a mariachi band was present, and the trumpeter (who was excellent) consistently reminded me of KD in some of the things he played.