Teasing the Korean Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 I thought I must have a bunch of albums by this group in other settings, mostly on the Blue Note label. As I look through my albums and CDs, I find albums with 2 or 3 members, but never all 4, at least until the VSOP album in the 70s. Am I missing something obvious? Was there an agreement, formal or otherwise, that the entire group wouldn't play together in other settings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Am I missing something obvious? Maiden Voyage, if you want to allow for George Coleman instead of Wayne. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted August 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Am I missing something obvious? Maiden Voyage, if you want to allow for George Coleman instead of Wayne. Well, yes, but I was referring to the Wayne group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 I doubt there was anything formal like that back in the 60s, but perhaps Miles asked them not to. Interesting question. Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted August 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 I doubt there was anything formal like that back in the 60s, but perhaps Miles asked them not to. Interesting question. What's interesting is that all four generally either were or weren't available at the same time, because they were either recording/gigging with Miles or not, so you'd think that they may have all showed up on a session even if by chance. They were of course a solid and intuitive unit, so it's interesting that it apparently didn't happen (that I can find, at least). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 At least one or two live concerts (in the mid 60's) with that Miles-less quartet, iirc. Not sure if any were ever recorded though, anybody know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 The only thing I've heard (and heard of) is the quartet recording with Gary Peacock standing in for Ron Carter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzjet Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 At least one or two live concerts (in the mid 60's) with that Miles-less quartet, iirc. Not sure if any were ever recorded though, anybody know? There was this date. It was recorded but the sound is very poor. Wayne Shorter Quartet New York City (USA), Village Vanguard August 1, 1965 Wayne Shorter - tenor sax Herbie Hancock - piano Gary Peacock - bass Tony Williams - drums 1. The Eye of the Hurricane (10:15) 2. Just in Time (9:35) 3. Oriental Folk Song (12:02) 4. Virgo (7:09) 5. Fran-Dance (6:06) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stryker Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 (edited) Some of Wayne's recordings come close but his penchant for using other drummers rather than Tony Williams creates the biggest disconnect. But not for Elvin Jones, "Speak No Evil" is the Miles group with Freddie Hubbard on trumpet. "Adam's Apple" has Herbie but also Reggie Workman and Joe Chambers. "The Collector" aka "Etcetera" has Herbie with Chambers and Cecil McBee. Williams' "Spring" comes at it from another angle, with Wayne and Herbie but also Peacock and Sam Rivers. For what it's worth, I just realized that "Spring" was recorded only 11 days later than the Shorter bootleg with Hancock, Peacock and Williams Edited August 18, 2011 by Mark Stryker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stryker Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 (edited) Am I missing something obvious? Maiden Voyage, if you want to allow for George Coleman instead of Wayne. Has Herbie (or George) ever addressed how or why Coleman ended up on "Maiden Voyage"? Not that he doesn't sound great, especially on the title track, where his melodies and use of 4ths digs into the meat of the tune: (transcription here: http://stevekhan.com/coleman1.htm). But in so many ways it seems more logical for Wayne or Joe Henderson to have been on this record given the date of May 1965 and the nature of the material. Maybe it was a timing/schedule issue. Maybe Herbie really wanted George and thought he would be perfect for the material or context. I wouldn't necessarily argue with the results, but I do sometimes wonder what one of those other guys might have sounded like here. Just wondering. Edited August 18, 2011 by Mark Stryker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 (edited) Bobby Timmons' THE SOUL MAN (reissued as one half of WORKIN' OUT back in Fantasy's glory days), while it only features Shorter and Carter, does have something of the feel of the Miles quintet sessions from this era (January 1966), and, to my ears, more so than Shorter or Hancock's BNs (with the possible exception of Wayne's ET CETERA). The Timmons session features 3 Carter compositions as well as the first recording of Shorter's "Tom Thumb". And on drums is Jimmy Cobb, which lends the affair a whole 'nother Miles connotation as well. Postscript: according to this Wayne discography, one tune from this excellent session remains unissued... Wayne Shorter (ts) Bobby Timmons (p) Ron Carter (b) Jimmy Cobb (d) Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, January 20, 1966 Little Waltz Prestige PR 7465 Einbahntrasse (One Way Street) - Damn If I Know - Cut Me Loose Charlie - Tom Thumb - Tenaj - Remembrance unissued Edited August 18, 2011 by Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 As I read it, some folks think the Plugged Nickle box fits the bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Stuart Kremsky (who was the archivist at the late-lamented Fantasy records) told me that 'Remembrance' is a piano solo. Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Late Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Has Herbie (or George) ever addressed how or why Coleman ended up on "Maiden Voyage"? Not that he doesn't sound great, especially on the title track ... but in so many ways it seems more logical for Wayne or Joe Henderson to have been on this record given the date of May 1965 and the nature of the material. Just wondering. I've wondered that too. Wayne, to my ears, would especially fit the bill. I can't "hear" Joe on that record, but ... I've also wondered about the relative tension between George Coleman and Tony Williams. Wasn't Williams indirectly (or directly) responsible for Coleman's departure from Miles' band? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Bobby Timmons' THE SOUL MAN (reissued as one half of WORKIN' OUT back in Fantasy's glory days), while it only features Shorter and Carter, does have something of the feel of the Miles quintet sessions from this era (January 1966), and, to my ears, more so than Shorter or Hancock's BNs (with the possible exception of Wayne's ET CETERA). The Timmons session features 3 Carter compositions as well as the first recording of Shorter's "Tom Thumb". And on drums is Jimmy Cobb, which lends the affair a whole 'nother Miles connotation as well. Postscript: according to this Wayne discography, one tune from this excellent session remains unissued... Wayne Shorter (ts) Bobby Timmons (p) Ron Carter (b) Jimmy Cobb (d) Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, January 20, 1966 Little Waltz Prestige PR 7465 Einbahntrasse (One Way Street) - Damn If I Know - Cut Me Loose Charlie - Tom Thumb - Tenaj - Remembrance unissued I absolutely LOVE this date (The Soul Man) -- maybe my all-time favorite "less well-known Wayne" date. I can't quite put my finger on why, but everything just seemed to work perfectly on this date. "Tom Thumb" surpasses Wayne's later BN version, and most of the rest of the tunes are compelling, with Ron Carter's "Tenaj" being especially interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Stuart Kremsky (who was the archivist at the late-lamented Fantasy records) told me that 'Remembrance' is a piano solo. Bertrand. Interesting; thanks. Would still be very interested to hear this performance. Seems like Timmons was sort of experimenting with modal structures on this date, and I wonder is "Remembrance" is a continuation of that. Bobby Timmons' THE SOUL MAN (reissued as one half of WORKIN' OUT back in Fantasy's glory days), while it only features Shorter and Carter, does have something of the feel of the Miles quintet sessions from this era (January 1966), and, to my ears, more so than Shorter or Hancock's BNs (with the possible exception of Wayne's ET CETERA). The Timmons session features 3 Carter compositions as well as the first recording of Shorter's "Tom Thumb". And on drums is Jimmy Cobb, which lends the affair a whole 'nother Miles connotation as well. Postscript: according to this Wayne discography, one tune from this excellent session remains unissued... Wayne Shorter (ts) Bobby Timmons (p) Ron Carter (b) Jimmy Cobb (d) Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, January 20, 1966 Little Waltz Prestige PR 7465 Einbahntrasse (One Way Street) - Damn If I Know - Cut Me Loose Charlie - Tom Thumb - Tenaj - Remembrance unissued I absolutely LOVE this date (The Soul Man) -- maybe my all-time favorite "less well-known Wayne" date. I can't quite put my finger on why, but everything just seemed to work perfectly on this date. "Tom Thumb" surpasses Wayne's later BN version, and most of the rest of the tunes are compelling, with Ron Carter's "Tenaj" being especially interesting. The date that occupies the first half of this reissue (the original WORKIN' OUT), featuring Johnny Lytle, is no slouch either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 And a related question... Ron Carter was the only member of the quintet not to be active as a leader (at least of recording dates) during his Davis tenure. I wonder why. Was he just too busy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffcrom Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 And a related question... Ron Carter was the only member of the quintet not to be active as a leader (at least of recording dates) during his Davis tenure. I wonder why. Was he just too busy? I know he was very busy in the studios, which is why Gary Peacock, Richard Davis, Albert Stinson, etc. appeared with the Quintet on various tours. And although Carter is a great musician and has written some great tunes, I've never gotten the sense that he has a "vision" - a music that is distinctly his "own." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stryker Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 (edited) And a related question... Ron Carter was the only member of the quintet not to be active as a leader (at least of recording dates) during his Davis tenure. I wonder why. Was he just too busy? I know he was very busy in the studios, which is why Gary Peacock, Richard Davis, Albert Stinson, etc. appeared with the Quintet on various tours. And although Carter is a great musician and has written some great tunes, I've never gotten the sense that he has a "vision" - a music that is distinctly his "own." Disagree. Carter's piccolo bass group in the '70s pursued a distinct sound ideal and his more recent trios with guitar and piano go for a kind of immaculately tailored refinement of the mainstream. I'm leaving aside value judgments on quality/profundity of the results and simply addressing the notion of vision as a bandleader. It is true that Carter's own bands have been about things that are very different than his most innovative and influential work he did with Miles and others. Edited August 19, 2011 by Mark Stryker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffcrom Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 And a related question... Ron Carter was the only member of the quintet not to be active as a leader (at least of recording dates) during his Davis tenure. I wonder why. Was he just too busy? I know he was very busy in the studios, which is why Gary Peacock, Richard Davis, Albert Stinson, etc. appeared with the Quintet on various tours. And although Carter is a great musician and has written some great tunes, I've never gotten the sense that he has a "vision" - a music that is distinctly his "own." Disagree. Carter's piccolo bass group in the '70s pursued a distinct sound ideal and his more recent trios with guitar and piano go for a kind of immaculately tailored refinement of the mainstream. I'm leaving aside value judgments on quality/profundity of the results and simply addressing the notion of vision as a bandleader. It is true that Carter's own bands have been about things that are very different than his most innovative and influential work he did with Miles and others. Fair enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 And a related question... Ron Carter was the only member of the quintet not to be active as a leader (at least of recording dates) during his Davis tenure. I wonder why. Was he just too busy? I know he was very busy in the studios, which is why Gary Peacock, Richard Davis, Albert Stinson, etc. appeared with the Quintet on various tours. And although Carter is a great musician and has written some great tunes, I've never gotten the sense that he has a "vision" - a music that is distinctly his "own." Disagree. Carter's piccolo bass group in the '70s pursued a distinct sound ideal and his more recent trios with guitar and piano go for a kind of immaculately tailored refinement of the mainstream. I'm leaving aside value judgments on quality/profundity of the results and simply addressing the notion of vision as a bandleader. It is true that Carter's own bands have been about things that are very different than his most innovative and influential work he did with Miles and others. Fair enough. Carter may have still been "evolving" as a player / musical thinker during his time with Miles, but I would argue that Herbie, Wayne and Tony were as well. And I am basing some of my wondering on Carter's significant contributions as a composer on E.S.P.... though, again, he, IIRC, he did not contribute anything to Miles' "book" after that album. Which prompts further wondering, though I should probably just trust my ears on Miles' music pre- and post- Plugged Nickel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 How many bass players (besides Mingus) were really leading dates in those days anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kh1958 Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 There's also Lee Morgan's The Procrastinator, which has Wayne, Herbie and Ron Carter, but substitutes Billy Higgins on drums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmonahan Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 How many bass players (besides Mingus) were really leading dates in those days anyway? Paul Chambers led a few for Vee Jay. gregmo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Early 60s, right. Point just being that bassists then were not traditionally leaders of dates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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