Herb Geller RIP

[mikeweil]

The last of the many great Americans in Europe are leaving us ... R.I.P.

[Clunky]

That Geller Fella - nice guy , graciously signing my CDs when I saw him about 15 years . Love his playing across a wonderful career.

[AllenLowe]

he may not have as much rhythmic strength as Pepper, I agree; but I feel there's more harmonic interest.

[Brad]

Always enjoyed his work. RIP.

[domo1129]

He had a long run. He was a positive force on the scene in GermanyI

RIP Herb Geller. Thanks for the music!

[John Litweiler]

I'm assuming Anthony Ortega, from the '50s, is still in San Diego and still playing.

[AllenLowe]

talked to him about a year ago; sounded alert and aware.

[Larry Kart]

he may not have as much rhythmic strength as Pepper, I agree; but I feel there's more harmonic interest.

If harmonic interest is what you want, the first choice from that general group of players probably would be Lennie Niehaus. Hey, Andre Hodeir thought that, so it must be true.

BTW, Niehaus (b. 1929) is still with us.

[king ubu]

he may not have as much rhythmic strength as Pepper, I agree; but I feel there's more harmonic interest.

If harmonic interest is what you want, the first choice from that general group of players probably would be Lennie Niehaus. Hey, Andre Hodeir thought that, so it must be true.

BTW, Niehaus (b. 1929) is still with us.

As stated in post #23 above

Btw, my first notion of Niehaus came via these:

Took me quite a while to realize this guy was a real musician and not just some teacher or clinician ...

[fasstrack]

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that I thought Herb was a more interesting saxophonist than Art Pepper.

And I'm sawing away at that limb. BTW, Geller said in an interview somewhere that Pepper in his mid-to-late-'50s prime was no great shakes in his opinion, although I don't recall whether Geller also said that he himself was a much better player. Don't get me wrong, I like Geller, although his solos do seem rather same-y after a while; and when it comes to rhythmic variety, tonal flexibility, long-range logic of construction, you name it, prime Pepper was in another realm altogether.

Also, BTW, check out if you can Gene Quill's solo on "I Feel Pretty" on Manny Albam's "West Side Story" album. Remarkably loose, wild, and fluid.

I think that was a Jazzwax interview, where he told Myers: 'Art Pepper didn't have much talent, but he had a lot of personality on the horn'. Weird statement, to say the least.....

[AllenLowe]

well, he loved Chet Baker. We had a long talk about him once.

[BFrank]

a/k/a "Rhyme and Reason".

This is the first place I heard Mark Murphy in the 70s. Became a fan and picked up most of Mark's Muse albums - still his best stuff.

[fasstrack]

well, he loved Chet Baker. We had a long talk about him once.

He said in the same interview that Pepper 'thought he was better than (or as good as) Bird, and that wasn't the case'.

Edited December 23, 2013 by fasstrack

[Cyril]

well, he loved Chet Baker. We had a long talk about him once.

He said in the same interview that Pepper 'thought he was better than (or as good as) Bird, and that wasn't the case'.

In Part 4 of a five-part interview with Herb, the West Coast alto saxophonist giant talks about Jimmy Giuffre, Art Pepper, Maynard Ferguson, Clifford Brown, Max Roach, Frank Butler and Larance Marable

http://www.jazzwax.com/2010/04/interview-herb-geller-part-4.html

Edited December 23, 2013 by Cyril

[Larry Kart]

From the above-mentioned Geller interview: "Art [Pepper] never had that much talent but put enormous personality into that horn." How, I wonder, did Geller define talent?

[fasstrack]

I'm wondering the same thing. It's a strange comment indeed. However Pepper wasted himself as a dope fiend or criminal is one thing-an argument could even be made that the later expressionist work was in part the result of that lifestyle and not as good as what preceded it, but anyone with ears would have to hear a genuine talent. I don't live or die by Art Pepper, but that comment rubbed me the wrong way. I guess he had his reasons...

[AllenLowe]

I wonder if he considered Pepper to be a "natural" and was bothered by the fact that he seemed to be able to abuse himself so regularly and then just get up and blow the walls off. Without the kind of "study" that guys like Herb put into the horn.

[Big Beat Steve]

Maybe just something like "He did not have the best technique in the world but he had original and personal ideas to say" or somethinglike that?

After all, if you play an instrument, ONE way of defining talent that a person has would be to go by how he can handle his instrument, wouldn't it. I mean (going to the opposite extreme), what good would it be having boundless ideas if you cannot translate (and therefore express) them on your instrument in full?

I cannot and won't judge how Art Pepper's mastery of the horn would rate compared to other altoists "up there" (don't feel qualified to comment on that by a long shot) but I cannot quite see how such a comment from one musician about another could rub anybody the wrong way as long as we don't know the full story behind it. Wouldn't it rather be just a case of curiosity about finding out WHAT that story is in order to understand better?

In the end, is there any musican out there (apart a scant handful) who'd rightfully be placed on a pedestal above criticism from FELLOW musicians? And after all, do we know what Art Pepper in turn had to say about HIS fellow musicians in his day?

So it's pointless IMO, particularly in an obit thread (considering how no-no's of what one would be entitled to say or not say in an obit are flung about here time and again ...)

Edited December 23, 2013 by Big Beat Steve

[fasstrack]

Like I said, I guess he had his reasons. I don't profess to know any more than you what they might have been.

[Big Beat Steve]

Yes, agreed, and I for one find that on reading a statement like this my curiosity is aroused but I Don't think I'd hold that statement against him (I've read much weirder comments and judgments between fellow musicians). Only I am afraid now we won't get to know the "inside story" anymnore. (Did it end up as an "out-take" on the "cutting room floor" of that above interview, i wonder? ...)

[fasstrack]

I guess Myers blew a golden opportunity for a follow-up...

[Larry Kart]

If Art didn't have talent in the generally accepted sense, one wonders why Stan Kenton, whose band played a lot of complicated music, would have had Art in his reed section for some time. I don't think that being a "natural" would have helped you get through a Bob Graettinger or Pete Rugolo piece.

[fasstrack]

Especially at 17...

[JSngry]

I remember a Geller interview in JJI (iirc) where he was talking about Ornette, and he loved Ornette, Ornettes stayed with him and Lorraine for a while, I guess, but he (Geller) souldn't resist saying something along the lines of, well, he was really original, really gifted, but he never could play regular worth a flip, or something like that, some way of saying that he admired the genius but not the skills.

I don't hold that against him, b/c it's the way a lot of people thought then, and still do think, that there's one common "right" way or thing and that to deviate from it too far you must do so as a fully conscious choice, not as some kind of impulsive urge, because then it's just....wrong at some level.

I get that way of thinking, don't completely disagree with it, but sure don't believe it, and certainly don't accept it as absolute. But many fine people do, and apparently HerbGeller would be counted as one of them. A fine fellow and fine musician who just felt that way.

Worse things have happened.

[Hardbopjazz]

Shit, it is the year of great losses in Jazz. I don't recall a year like this,

RIP Mr. Geller.