Kenton!

[Rooster_Ties]

The only Kenton I’ve ever had is the Graettinger City of a Glass comp (CD), with that drop dead gorgeous cover ❤️ (below), which — if I could ever find an LP-size image of it (in good quality) — I would be tempted to frame and hang on the wall.

But I have it because my MOM had the original City of Glass 10” — which she also mentioned to me a few times as something wild she found somewhere, and picked up I think(?) because she had a cursory interest in modern dance. She heard a couple John Cage things back in the 50’s — that I think Merce Cunningham had brought to the University of Illinois (where she was in school), and a bit of modern music too — she also heard/saw some sort of Harry Partch dance/ballet collaboration too while she was in college at U of I. — and she fondly remembered the homemade microtonal instruments for the music.

Anyway, I somehow suspect she picked up a copy of that City of Glass 10” because the dance department had performed something set to it maybe.  Wish she was still around, or I’d ask her about it.

[JSngry]

6 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

He is obviously of extreme importance to jazz... 

Not really... 

[Rabshakeh]

That's interesting. 

There's something in the view (I think @Teasing the Korean's) that Kenton is not really jazz but actually more akin to the other trends in progressive / space age orchestral music.

Many Kenton records seem further divorced from something like Woody Herman than the likes of Sinatra's jazzy big band records. There's more Stravinsky in there than Benny Goodman.

3 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Not really... 

He's a huge name in the 50s, and, whilst I was being silly above, a very large number of A listers got their starts in his bands.

[Teasing the Korean]

1 minute ago, Rabshakeh said:

There's something in the view (I think @Teasing the Korean's) that Kenton is not really jazz but actually more akin to the other trends in progressive / space age orchestral music.

I file stuff just as much be cultural considerations as I do by the music itself, so take my idiosyncratic filing system with a grain of salt. 

[JSngry]

A listers? Getting their start there?

What kind of list is this and what kind of jazz are we talking about?

You got Art Pepper and Bill Holman, but that's on some sort of "expanded" A list.

In fairness, my definition of A List is really, really narrow. 

[Teasing the Korean]

30 minutes ago, Rooster_Ties said:

The only Kenton I’ve ever had is the Graettinger City of a Glass comp (CD), with that drop dead gorgeous cover ❤️ (below)...

Wow, I was totally bummed that they did not use the original 10" cover art.

[Rabshakeh]

8 minutes ago, JSngry said:

A listers? Getting their start there?

What kind of list is this and what kind of jazz are we talking about?

You got Art Pepper and Bill Holman, but that's on some sort of "expanded" A list.

In fairness, my definition of A List is really, really narrow. 

I think your definition of getting their start there might be too.

Put it this way, my understanding is that almost a whole generation of (white) jazz musicians rose to prominence as Kenton band members. I find it hard to understand because Kenton's music seems not very easily likeable to me. 

[jazzbo]

It may seem odd. . . but the fact that Kenton's was one of the most successful (and there were not large numbers) of West Coast big bands meant that his band was a target for up and coming and wannabe West Coast jazz artists to join.

Edited September 2, 2023 by jazzbo

[JSngry]

More near A-Listers came through Herman than Kenton, players and arrangers.

Kenton tended to feed the machine, Herman the music. Although in Ralph Burns and Neal Hefti, the machine was well-fed as well.

To an earlier point about not being able to identify Kenton soloists...in the Artistry In Rhythm band, that was not the case, if only because the soloists were generally advertised. But after that, it's not an entirely inaccurate point. But - Lee Konitz., Frank Rosolino. Dee Barton. Sam Donahue.

The only serious A-Lister there is Konitz, but the others (and they are not the only ones) are identifiable enough, I should think. 

[Rooster_Ties]

1 hour ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Wow, I was totally bummed that they did not use the original 10" cover art.

Sorry, that CD comp cover is also glorious — it just is.

[Big Beat Steve]

This topic continues to be interesting ... Though there is some bias here becasue I guess I have 95% of his (studio) output up to c. 1960 (plus a fair share of his live recordings). Which does not mean I can stomach all of it all the time, but I derive pleasure from almost all of it at some point in time ... Though I had to let some of it grow on me, such as the "Kenton/Wagner" album (which I incidentally took the plunge after JSangrey's "plug" for it here - though easy enough to do at the giveaway price for the Creative World reissue. But I found it surprisingly accessible).
I can see the point of TTK's filing system in this case. Kenton can quite well belong there ....

Re- some of the other names mentioned here, by sheer coincidence I bought a US Brunswick original of the below record masterminded by Gene Roland (recorded in 1963) at a local record shop today.

https://www.discogs.com/master/638699-Gene-Roland-Swingin-Friends

While it is OK for post-war big band jazz listening, I find it comparatively bland and predictable in some respects. I will have to consciously listen to Roland's charts for the Kenton band again, but at any rate this one is a far cry from the "The Band That Never Was" session. So ...what's in a name, after all?

OTOH, contrary to what others here seem to feel, I for one do enjoy the "Rugolo Plays Kenton" album (Mercury) quite a bit. Probably for the "fun" and "non-ponderous" aspect that TTK mentions.

And finally, seeing the controversy always surrounding Kenton, the series title of the below CD released a couple of years ago in a series of big band music for the dancers will probably provoke horse laughs from some around here: 😁

https://www.discogs.com/release/24236729-Stan-Kenton-And-His-Orchestra-Swing-Artistry

 

 

[Daniel A]

When looking for the cover of the original 10" LP release of City of Glass, I learned that Laurindo Almeida made his first recordings with the Kenton band. I would consider him an A-lister, but not as a west coast jazz musician of course.

[Rabshakeh]

3 hours ago, JSngry said:

To an earlier point about not being able to identify Kenton soloists...in the Artistry In Rhythm band, that was not the case, if only because the soloists were generally advertised. But after that, it's not an entirely inaccurate point. But - Lee Konitz., Frank Rosolino. Dee Barton. Sam Donahue.

I think that's right. The Artistry in Rhythm band is definitely soloist-centric. I spent the morning listening to other Kenton, which might have motivated my description.

I think that the Kenton of the jazz history books is basically the Artistry in Rhythm Kenton. That's the closest to the bebop-friendly big band leader that he gets described as being. Otherwise he really is closer to some sort of "Big Band Plays Stravinsky" thing along with City of Glass, which is a Thing (even if not necessarily much of a jazz Thing) if find the AiR band records the most intelligible.

10 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

 

50 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

this one is a far cry from the "The Band That Never Was" session. So ...what's in a name, after all?

 

l just googled the band. I see the internet is a bit lukewarm. Is this something worth investigating or is it more of a what could have been?

[gmonahan]

We've had several threads on Kenton over the years. I remember seeing him playing at a high school in Iowa back around 1970. I think Dick Shearer was still playing trombone with the band then. I got his autograph! (Hey, I was in high school!) He was, if memory serves, very generous in sharing his arrangements with high school jazz bands and was a big booster of big band jazz in general.

I like a lot of the 50s Capitol stuff, especially the arrangements by Holman and Russo that Mosaic put into a now long out of print set. Your mileage may vary, but in the right mood, I like listening to him. And Rosolino played with him for a while, and I do love Frank's trombone. He also employed some great singers, including June Christy, Anita O'Day, and Chris Connor. I'd rate them as "A listers" among jazz singers.

[Big Beat Steve]

1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said:

l just googled the band. I see the internet is a bit lukewarm. Is this something worth investigating or is it more of a what could have been?

Are you referring to the "Band That Never Was" rehearsal sessions that were released on Spotlite?  I find them very interesting and indeed something where you wonder what this "could have been if only ... ". But I've always been curious about obscurities like these that fill the gaps of jazz history (like the recordings by Henry Jerome and others in that vein).
As for the "Swingin' Friends" LP I mentioned (which was a pickup band for this one session), just listen in here and see for yourself:

FWIW, I just noticed some fairly "rave" reviews of it on the internet (on Allmusic and Jazzwax) so maybe this is one of those that need a couple of relistens to be fully appreciated?

But at any rate, this is OT here.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[AllenLowe]

29 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Are you referring to the "Band That Never Was" rehearsal sessions that were released on Spotlite?  I find them very interesting and indeed something where you wonder what this "could have been if only ... ". But I've always been curious about obscurities like these that fill the gaps of jazz history (like the recordings by Henry Jerome and others in that vein).
As for the "Swingin' Friends" LP I mentioned (which was a pickup band for this one session), just listen in here and see for yourself:

FWIW, I just noticed some fairly "rave" reviews of it on the internet (on Allmusic and Jazzwax) so maybe this is one of those that need a couple of relistens to be fully appreciated?

But at any rate, this is OT here.

FWIW I love that album; Gene Roland was a major talent. Dan Morgenstern originally told me about him.

[JSngry]

7 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

I think that the Kenton of the jazz history books is basically the Artistry in Rhythm Kenton. That's the closest to the bebop-friendly big band leader that he gets described as being. 

One the whole, that band was mostly very square. Louder than shit and very aggressive, but take that away and it's usually very faux. Very.

But not always!

The really "bebop friendly" band was the so-called New Concepts band, which actually did swing. Konitz, Zoot, Kamuca, Rosolino, the Holman charts, a lot of non-stop heavy Russo, odds and ends from others. And other bands up until the end found their pockets, sometimes swinging traditionally, sometimes more uniquely. The later 60s into the early 70d bands were actually quite strong at this, imo.

The tell to it all, though, is something Al Porcino said about working the Kenton gig, that Stan would get a really good band and that they would get to swinging really good. And then, inevitably, Stan would look up and say, wait, this band is swinging, THIS IS NOT MY BAND!!!! And the he would get weird about it. But the cycle would always repeat. 

It sounds funny, and it kinda is, but hey, this is the leader, the alleged visionary, and he doesn't have half an idea about how his band should be playing?

even at that, though, there were some good bands that made some really good records. But Stan Kenton himself was at best the enabler, not the creator. So... don't believe the hype, as they say. But do listen to the records, the good ones. 

 

[Rabshakeh]

5 hours ago, JSngry said:

One the whole, that band was mostly very square. Louder than shit and very aggressive, but take that away and it's usually very faux. Very.

But not always!

The really "bebop friendly" band was the so-called New Concepts band, which actually did swing. Konitz, Zoot, Kamuca, Rosolino, the Holman charts, a lot of non-stop heavy Russo, odds and ends from others. And other bands up until the end found their pockets, sometimes swinging traditionally, sometimes more uniquely. The later 60s into the early 70d bands were actually quite strong at this, imo.

 

I may be getting my Kenton bands confused. Not helped by them all having effectively the same name. 

5 hours ago, JSngry said:

The tell to it all, though, is something Al Porcino said about working the Kenton gig, that Stan would get a really good band and that they would get to swinging really good. And then, inevitably, Stan would look up and say, wait, this band is swinging, THIS IS NOT MY BAND!!!! And the he would get weird about it. But the cycle would always repeat. 

It sounds funny, and it kinda is, but hey, this is the leader, the alleged visionary, and he doesn't have half an idea about how his band should be playing?

The Woody Herman pisstake on the version of "Random Riff" on the Tropicana album is pretty telling. "In the vernacular of Herman", Kenton sneers, before leading the group on one of the better tracks on the record.

[BillF]

 

3 minutes ago, BillF said:

"Pisstake" in a big band context brought to mind Johnny Dankworth's wonderful "Experiments with Mice":

 

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by BillF

[Big Beat Steve]

[Quasimado]

1953-4. Arrangers: Bill Russo & Bill Holman. Soloists include Sam Noto, Dave Schildkraut, Frank Rosolino, Buddy Childers, Charlie Mariano, Bill Perkins, Lee Konitz (get the cd with the 3 extra Konitz tracks), plus Stan Levey on drums. The music speaks for itself ...

[BillF]

1 hour ago, Quasimado said:

1953-4. Arrangers: Bill Russo & Bill Holman. Soloists include Sam Noto, Dave Schildkraut, Frank Rosolino, Buddy Childers, Charlie Mariano, Bill Perkins, Lee Konitz (get the cd with the 3 extra Konitz tracks), plus Stan Levey on drums. The music speaks for itself ...

👍 👍

[medjuck]

When I started reading Downbeat in the early '60s Kenton was usually derided.  (IIRC His record with Tex Ritter was especially the object of scorn.) As a result I'm not very familiar with his work. 

But he had his fans many of whom weren't interested in any other jazz.   And  I've never read anything by anyone who was in his band that was anything less than complimentary.  Art Pepper especially makes him sound like a saint.  (Of course I haven't read interviews  with that many people from the band so there may be dissenters. )

Edited September 3, 2023 by medjuck

[AllenLowe]

Strangely, in my opinion, Kenton was no more inconsistent than Ellington was. At his best he was superb (remember the Graettinger recordings, which are epochal). Plus there is a Gene Roland piece, kind of like a country/train in the distance blues piece (I cannot remember the name) which is probably one of maybe 5 great jazz down-home blues performances, and I mean down home.

Here it is:

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]