Why was the Stan Getz thread deleted?

[Larry Kart]

As the person who started that thread, I have no problem with it being deleted, given the way things developed.

How did they develop? Were certain things, er, 'overexposed'?

It seemed cool last I looked.

In particular, Stan's daughter, Beverly Getz, made it clear that a number of the posts on this thread, including at least one of mine, were very hurtful to her, as well as (she said) cruel/spiteful in intent and factually inaccurate. There were other issues as well IIRC, but for me that was enough. I could see no way that any of this could be resolved (or "resolved") in this world without creating more unhappiness all around than it was worth.

[Beverly Getz]

Aw shit, I'm getting jumpy now & not knowing who's gonna take what the wrong way...

But...

I'm neither implying nor declaring that Bev Getz herself is part of the "Jazz PC Patrol". That's certainly not my intent. I'm just saying that the jazz business is like any other business in that once you want to get out of the "ghetto" of local/indie/etc/whatever, then it's no different than for any other business these days, which is to say that egos must be stoked & feathers not get ruffled, at least not until one has earned enough power to afford to do so.

A lot of people still think of jazz as this free-spirited world where fans alone make things happen, like Lion & Wolff. but no, those days are looooong gone, if indeed they ever existed in the romanticized form we like to think they did, which they probably didn't.

I knew what you meant JSngry.. and didn't assume you were necessarily referring to me - but even if you were, I can understand why I could be viewed that way. After all... I did pretty much bull moose my way in here all locked and loaded. But seriously.. I don't want to be the SG Rumor Police! I would just like to believe that folks might consider what they put in writing as people can and do get scalded. And I might add, It really isn't my 'job' to live down his reputation! But some stories just cross the line. I'm considering having a tube of Crazy Glue next to my PC to glue my hands together behind me for the next time I see something, somewhere!

[JSngry]

Crazy Glue on the hands....no no no no NO! Your manicurist will KILL you for that.

Trust me on this one...

[Guest Bill Barton]

I love this board, but the Getz thread--what it turned into, at any rate--was the first one that ever actually sickened me and made me feel ashamed of this place. Y'know, that's one strike out of however many thousands of threads we've had, and this board is so, so much better than any other jazz discussion forum out there, and polices itself pretty well most of the time. Life's full of unpleasantness and unpleasant stories, gotta be adult if you want the frank, open conversations, but there was something about that Getz thread that was just utterly repulsive. As a board member I'd probably vote to let it stand, but as a personally invested moderator who runs this place, I'd not want it associated with me or my band. That said, I'd really hate to see the board come crashing down over an out-of-control topic...for a sense of proportion, just look at ALL of the active threads on any given day here. Hate to see so much focus on the handful that have gone over the line.

That's my piece and I'd much prefer to move on as well.

Well said, ghost. Let's move on. I too found some of the content of that deleted thread just a tad bit too snarky for my taste. It was relatively mild compared to the Oscar Peterson one in days of yore though.

My 2 cents worth (and maybe it's worth less).

This is Jim's board and he can do whatever he likes with it-- including closing it down (though that would make me very sad).

It''s my experience that people are often more aggressive in print than in person. Some of the most vitriolic critics and writers I've met seemed rather timid when I met them. (This isn't always the case, I realize.) The internet allows us all to hide behind our keyboards. When people are anonymous they have a mask to hide behind too. (Clementine was an extreme example of that.)

We should try to be as reasonable on-line as we are in person. You'd think having to type something out would make you less l likely to blurt something out but I know that in my case that's somehow not how it works.

Hear hear! Mercury Retrograde-itis?

I've been more of a lurker on this thread but just wanted to quickly add my 2 cents and move on. Imagine what it would be like without this place to post? Pretty depressing prospect? Please guys I really enjoy this place. Let's lock down this thread and talk jazz. Let's do it for Jim.

I've learned so much, made so many online friends and done so much networking here that I too think it would be a shame if all this bickering and dithering was taken too seriously and continued to divert folks from actually talking about music.

[DMP]

The most positive aspect of this has been the posts of Beverly Getz, intelligent and thoughtful. And I think the First Amendment will withstand the deletion of what rather quickly became - at the least - an extremely tasteless thread.

[ghost of miles]

Only want to add that I love this place--I mean, really love it--and have developed a fairly deep/profound admiration, respect, and affection for a large number of folks here. And while Larry, Jsngry, and Chuck certainly don't need me to defend them, they are all exceptionally decent people and have contributed invaluable reflections, speculations, remembrances and thoughts to this board. (Plus they're plenty tough and abhor the scent of b.s., in the morning and pretty much any other time of day or night.)

I, too, get bummed when members decide they need to leave, either temporarily or permanently, but at a certain point BFD, it's not a sign of board apocalypse and you can still stay in touch with them quite easily in the age of e-mail/Facebook/etc.

[clifford_thornton]

Well you gotta be careful on f'book and twitter as well - I've certainly cleaned up my act there after becoming "friends" with people from work and other professional organizations.

[ghost of miles]

Well you gotta be careful on f'book and twitter as well - I've certainly cleaned up my act there after becoming "friends" with people from work and other professional organizations.

What cracks me up are the stories about professional/biz folks tweeting really unflattering, negative things:

What are you doing? What are you doing right now?

[7/4]

Brother James and Brother Chuck as "most frequent offenders"?!!!

Man, you've clearly have never been a part of this board!

[Swinging Swede]

it would be a shame if all this bickering and dithering was taken too seriously and continued to divert folks from actually talking about music.

Well, talking about music is like dancing about architecture, so... -_-

[mikeweil]

I'm sure this post will get deleted like most of the rest of them have been in this thread, but anyway, he never does what he says he's going to do, does he?

Do you really want him to prove the opposite?

[clifford_thornton]

This thread is getting into some real "song that never ends" territory. Hopefully it'll get closed so I don't feel compelled to comment!

[mikeweil]

Amen, over, and out, hopefully!

[John L]

I just read through this thread for the first time. It is quite an upsetting read.

To be honest, I never thought before about the possibility that what is posted on this forum could affect opportunities for Organissimo. Or, if anything, I thought that the effect would be unambiguously positive. I count myself among those who might not have started buying Organissimo records if this forum didn't exist.

The problem is that there are serious tradeoffs here. The fact that this forum has provided a generally liberal environment for free interaction is one of the factors that has made it so great - the best jazz forum on the web. But that kind of a liberal environment always leads to conflicts of this sort, and a few posters always end up offending a good number of others. That goes with the territory. Sure, good moderation can keep it under control. But there are always tradeoffs.

The question of what to do deserves some thought (IMO). As some have suggested, renaming the board and disassociating it with the band is one option. But I am not yet convinced that this board, on balance, has a negative influence on publicity and opportunities for the band.

Dude, the "jazz business" these days is "weirder" than it's ever been. Gigs are few and competition is fierce. Power, real power, business power, the kind that can make your life "comfortable" is highly, highly concentrated. "Hurt feelings" of the wrong person can indeed have an adverse effect on bookings & other opportunities, since the power brokers are more aware than ever that they hold all the power. The beauty of the internet is that it greatly democratizes the "ground floor", the getting in the game (and god, I've heard "get back in the game" so much lately on so many different commercials that it's making me ill...), but the reality is that once you want to break out of that "indie" scene, you gotta deal with reality - and that means "political correctness", or at least the jazz version of it.

It's a game that most of us here either aren't aware of or have chosen not to play. But if Jim has decided that he needs to work that area in order to best provide for his family, I'll be the first to encourage him to go for it, even if it means changing/losing/whatever the board. A man's family always comes first, and as much as I've enjoyed the "keeping it real" vibe around here, it's a luxury I can easily live without (some perceptions to the contrary, I have a very satisfying life away from the computer ) if it means that the Alfredson, Gloss, & Marsh peoples get to take it to the next level career-wise. Or at least get to try to take it to the next level. Lots of hoops, but...

Thanks, Jim. That makes a lot of sense. it just goes to show that, no matter how ugly those of us outside of the jazz business imagine that it might be, those on the inside know that it is uglier still.

[Beverly Getz]

I just read through this thread for the first time. It is quite an upsetting read.

To be honest, I never thought before about the possibility that what is posted on this forum could affect opportunities for Organissimo. Or, if anything, I thought that the effect would be unambiguously positive. I count myself among those who might not have started buying Organissimo records if this forum didn't exist.

The problem is that there are serious tradeoffs here. The fact that this forum has provided a generally liberal environment for free interaction is one of the factors that has made it so great - the best jazz forum on the web. But that kind of a liberal environment always leads to conflicts of this sort, and a few posters always end up offending a good number of others. That goes with the territory. Sure, good moderation can keep it under control. But there are always tradeoffs.

The question of what to do deserves some thought (IMO). As some have suggested, renaming the board and disassociating it with the band is one option. But I am not yet convinced that this board, on balance, has a negative influence on publicity and opportunities for the band.

Dude, the "jazz business" these days is "weirder" than it's ever been. Gigs are few and competition is fierce. Power, real power, business power, the kind that can make your life "comfortable" is highly, highly concentrated. "Hurt feelings" of the wrong person can indeed have an adverse effect on bookings & other opportunities, since the power brokers are more aware than ever that they hold all the power. The beauty of the internet is that it greatly democratizes the "ground floor", the getting in the game (and god, I've heard "get back in the game" so much lately on so many different commercials that it's making me ill...), but the reality is that once you want to break out of that "indie" scene, you gotta deal with reality - and that means "political correctness", or at least the jazz version of it.

It's a game that most of us here either aren't aware of or have chosen not to play. But if Jim has decided that he needs to work that area in order to best provide for his family, I'll be the first to encourage him to go for it, even if it means changing/losing/whatever the board. A man's family always comes first, and as much as I've enjoyed the "keeping it real" vibe around here, it's a luxury I can easily live without (some perceptions to the contrary, I have a very satisfying life away from the computer ) if it means that the Alfredson, Gloss, & Marsh peoples get to take it to the next level career-wise. Or at least get to try to take it to the next level. Lots of hoops, but...

Thanks, Jim. That makes a lot of sense. it just goes to show that, no matter how ugly those of us outside of the jazz business imagine that it might be, those on the inside know that it is uglier still.

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." ~ Hunter S. Thompson

[robviti]

“Music is spiritual. The music business is not.” - Van Morrison

[fasstrack]

Aw shit, I'm getting jumpy now & not knowing who's gonna take what the wrong way...

But...

I'm neither implying nor declaring that Bev Getz herself is part of the "Jazz PC Patrol". That's certainly not my intent. I'm just saying that the jazz business is like any other business in that once you want to get out of the "ghetto" of local/indie/etc/whatever, then it's no different than for any other business these days, which is to say that egos must be stoked & feathers not get ruffled, at least not until one has earned enough power to afford to do so.

A lot of people still think of jazz as this free-spirited world where fans alone make things happen, like Lion & Wolff. but no, those days are looooong gone, if indeed they ever existed in the romanticized form we like to think they did, which they probably didn't.

I knew what you meant JSngry.. and didn't assume you were necessarily referring to me - but even if you were, I can understand why I could be viewed that way. After all... I did pretty much bull moose my way in here all locked and loaded. But seriously.. I don't want to be the SG Rumor Police! I would just like to believe that folks might consider what they put in writing as people can and do get scalded. And I might add, It really isn't my 'job' to live down his reputation! But some stories just cross the line. I'm considering having a tube of Crazy Glue next to my PC to glue my hands together behind me for the next time I see something, somewhere!

He played beautiful, that's why he's being discussed. How 'nice' was Beethoven? Bird? Picasso? Can we grow up?

Next........

[Van Basten II]

From all of this, i think i'll stick to the three name game thread

[Beverly Getz]

Aw shit, I'm getting jumpy now & not knowing who's gonna take what the wrong way...

But...

I'm neither implying nor declaring that Bev Getz herself is part of the "Jazz PC Patrol". That's certainly not my intent. I'm just saying that the jazz business is like any other business in that once you want to get out of the "ghetto" of local/indie/etc/whatever, then it's no different than for any other business these days, which is to say that egos must be stoked & feathers not get ruffled, at least not until one has earned enough power to afford to do so.

A lot of people still think of jazz as this free-spirited world where fans alone make things happen, like Lion & Wolff. but no, those days are looooong gone, if indeed they ever existed in the romanticized form we like to think they did, which they probably didn't.

I knew what you meant JSngry.. and didn't assume you were necessarily referring to me - but even if you were, I can understand why I could be viewed that way. After all... I did pretty much bull moose my way in here all locked and loaded. But seriously.. I don't want to be the SG Rumor Police! I would just like to believe that folks might consider what they put in writing as people can and do get scalded. And I might add, It really isn't my 'job' to live down his reputation! But some stories just cross the line. I'm considering having a tube of Crazy Glue next to my PC to glue my hands together behind me for the next time I see something, somewhere!

He played beautiful, that's why he's being discussed. How 'nice' was Beethoven? Bird? Picasso? Can we grow up?

Next........

If the discussion had been about "how beautiful his playing was" (or even not beautiful for that matter), this thread wouldn't exist, would it?! Nothing to do with "growing up".

[kenny weir]

If the discussion had been about "how beautiful his playing was" (or even not beautiful for that matter), this thread wouldn't exist, would it?! Nothing to do with "growing up".

Small point: Fasttrack said Stan was being discussed because he played beautiful. He didn't say it was his beautiful playing that was being discussed. There's a difference.

Carry on ...

[JSngry]

I'm hoping that we've pretty much covered all that there is to be covered in this thread. There's some very interesting people who come here, Bev included, and wouldn't it be so much nicer to be able to continue engaging them in a "peacetime" environment?

[Jim Alfredson]

Agreed.