Andrew Hill, Point of Departure - 50 years ago ago

[Teasing the Korean]

Gary McFarland beat him to it by six months.

[skeith]

One thing that often strikes me about this date is that the track "Dedication" is a gorgeus ballad....something that does not often get mentioned about POD.

[Guy Berger]

One thing that often strikes me about this date is that the track "Dedication" is a gorgeus ballad....something that does not often get mentioned about POD.

YES. It's like the BLUE IN GREEN of semi-avant-garde-jazz.

[Eric]

Funny, while POD certainly is a spectacular date -- I must say that in the corner of my brain that it occupies, I often associate it as being as much an Eric Dolphy sort of date (for me, Dolphy dominates the proceedings), as Hill's. Early, early on in the first half-decade of my first jazz listening (mid 90's), I even filed it under "Dolphy" in my collection.

While I love POD, I think it's elevation (in most camps) as being almost THE definitive Andrew Hill date seems a little off to me. I'd be more likely to nominate "Black Fire" for that. When I'm loaning out Hill CD's to someone, I usually give folks "Black Fire" and "Passing Ships" to start with -- as (what I feel) are the two best examples of his early and later (60's) BN periods. POD does have numerous AMAZING performances -- but so does Black Fire, with the added benefit of (what I think) are stronger tunes (compositions).

I heard Andrew's quartet at the Iowa City Jazz Festival in 2003 - one of the most memorable live dates I've yet been to! (Along with Sun Ra, Sam Rivers, and Grachan Moncur)

Pretty much the same for me. I've never truly connected with POD, but very much so with "Black Fire" (I like "Dance with Death" for late 60's Hill).

Same for me.

[Deepak]

Funny, while POD certainly is a spectacular date -- I must say that in the corner of my brain that it occupies, I often associate it as being as much an Eric Dolphy sort of date (for me, Dolphy dominates the proceedings), as Hill's.

Same here. In my mind I have seen it as a sister album to Out To Lunch. I think of one when I play the other. Both are some of my favorite Blue Notes.

[JSngry]

I was born in 1955 & came to jesus jazz in in 1970, so I can reconcile intellectually/internally/etc all of this 50 Years Later Blue Note Music being made right at the beginning of American Beatlemania and all that was to follow. What I will never be able to process on a personal-interface level is how it was to have been aware at any even semi-serious level of both things happening concurrently and then proceeding accordingly. I mean, in 1964, how could you take Andrew Hill & A Hard Day's Night and look towards a future where both would be held as icons in groups with overlapping memberships, how the hell could you see that day coming in 1964?

By the time I got to thinking about it, it was reconcilable, because I was in the fallout of all of it, and the fallout was settling and the dusts gathering together again, as and where they could. But if you were at Ground Zero...that must have been some weird shit to prognosticate, all of it.

[colinmce]

To me, the ace in the hole is Tony Williams. His inclusion was a stroke of genius that makes the date more than it would have been with any other drummer Hill had associated with thus far (though Roy Haynes & Elvin Jones both brought something special to his music, Haynes in particular). I go back & forth re: Kenny Dorham, though. On the one hand her serves the music in his own way, but in another I can't help but imagine what it would have been with Woody Shaw in his place.

[Guy Berger]

To me, the ace in the hole is Tony Williams. His inclusion was a stroke of genius that makes the date more than it would have been with any other drummer Hill had associated with thus far (though Roy Haynes & Elvin Jones both brought something special to his music, Haynes in particular). I go back & forth re: Kenny Dorham, though. On the one hand her serves the music in his own way, but in another I can't help but imagine what it would have been with Woody Shaw in his place.

I've been known to complain about flawed BN personnel selections from time to time (Mode for Joe! sigh) but I think Kenny is perfect here.

By the way, While I really like Charles's playing during this period - much better than it was 3-4 years later, and for all we know he could have meshed very well with his fellow Chico alum Eric - I am glad Joe was the guy who showed up that day.

Anybody game for going up to Lloyd at a concert and asking him about his near-role in PoD?

Edited March 23, 2014 by Guy

[Rooster_Ties]

By the way,

Lord, was that really over 10 years ago that I posted that??

[LWayne]

Andrew Hill has long been my favorite jazz musician.

I was fortunate enough to catch him playing live twice: first, with his quartet at the Albright Knox Art Gallery in Buffalo. Even more memorable was a rare solo piano performance a couple years later at An Die Musik in Baltimore.

Great performance and got to hear his artistry from the first row. Close enough to feel the vibrations of the piano as well as enjoy the sound. Just as special was that he spent some time in the small bar between sets with the audience. Remarkably, only a couple of people came to talk with Andrew, and my wife and I were able to spend quite some time in conversation. I recall being quite nervous and intimidated; but fortunate that he was quite engaging and he had no other pressing engagements.

Truly a special memory with one of the legends.

LWayne

[Ed S]

Andrew Hill has long been my favorite jazz musician.

I was fortunate enough to catch him playing live twice: first, with his quartet at the Albright Knox Art Gallery in Buffalo. Even more memorable was a rare solo piano performance a couple years later at An Die Musik in Baltimore.

Great performance and got to hear his artistry from the first row. Close enough to feel the vibrations of the piano as well as enjoy the sound. Just as special was that he spent some time in the small bar between sets with the audience. Remarkably, only a couple of people came to talk with Andrew, and my wife and I were able to spend quite some time in conversation. I recall being quite nervous and intimidated; but fortunate that he was quite engaging and he had no other pressing engagements.

Truly a special memory with one of the legends.

LWayne

I saw him at the Albright Knox as well! Great show. I was happy to see a legend live.

[Teasing the Korean]

This thread inspired me to pull out Andrew's mid-70s solo piano album on Arista Freedom. Haven't spun it in a while. Great stuff!

[skeith]

Well I think I know what record I'll play tonight if I get some time. Maybe "judgement" and "Andrew!!!" too if time allows....

I think Dolphy dominates this session too FWIW

I agree that Dolphy "dominates" this session as an instrumentalist. I view that as a point in its favor; Dolphy on a good day is one of the most glorious things in jazz, and here we have "Dolphy on a good day" complemented by an array of 5 other great musicians and 5 fantastic compositions.

On this point, I disagree with you guys. I listened again last night, and I think POD is a great example of what in the film world is referred to as an "ensemble cast" with each player making significant contributions and no single player dominating the performance. Henderson and Dorham are great and Tony Williams and Richard Davis provide the supportive underpinning as well as taking a few great solos too.

But obviously what really elevates POD beyond the typical Blue Note session is the unique playing style and compositions of Andrew himself.

[skeith]

Andrew Hill has long been my favorite jazz musician.

I was fortunate enough to catch him playing live twice: first, with his quartet at the Albright Knox Art Gallery in Buffalo. Even more memorable was a rare solo piano performance a couple years later at An Die Musik in Baltimore.

Great performance and got to hear his artistry from the first row. Close enough to feel the vibrations of the piano as well as enjoy the sound. Just as special was that he spent some time in the small bar between sets with the audience. Remarkably, only a couple of people came to talk with Andrew, and my wife and I were able to spend quite some time in conversation. I recall being quite nervous and intimidated; but fortunate that he was quite engaging and he had no other pressing engagements.

Truly a special memory with one of the legends.

LWayne

I saw Andrew in what I think was his last live performance at Trinity Church near Wall Street. He did a live solo performance... he looked not particularly healthy... but the performance was good.

My closest personal encounter with Andrew came some years before that when I came upon him at the J&R cd shop. He was attempting to pry a Village Voice from a bundle of them tied with some sort of binding. He was really working it and I became afraid that he was literally damaging his fingers. I cringed and said something like "Mr. Hill....please do not injure those fingers.... and let me cut that binding for you" which I did with one of those little knives you have on a keychain. He smiled at me, grabbed his Villlage Voice copy and said "thank you" .... such an unassuming, humble man. I was too dumbstruck to say anything else.

Edited March 25, 2014 by skeith

[Leeway]

I always like albums where a great composer is introducing the compositions and playing on the album, I think that's one of the reasons PoD is so special. Hill's compositions have such a coherent and personal sensibility, and that creates a special feeling to the album.

In similar vein, I find Hill's piano playing composer-ly (in the service of the composition), rather than virtuosic (in the service of the musician). Hill was a fine pianist, but the pianism was inextricably bound up with his composing.

I was also playing the "what if?" game, thinking that maybe Freddie Hubbard would have been a better call on trumpet. But listening again. I feel there is a certain brooding quality, a shadow maybe, underlying or behind the music, and I think KD captures this beautifully. The album works beautifully as-is; no need to gild a lily.

[paul secor]

I always like albums where a great composer is introducing the compositions and playing on the album, I think that's one of the reasons PoD is so special. Hill's compositions have such a coherent and personal sensibility, and that creates a special feeling to the album.

In similar vein, I find Hill's piano playing composer-ly (in the service of the composition), rather than virtuosic (in the service of the musician). Hill was a fine pianist, but the pianism was inextricably bound up with his composing.

I was also playing the "what if?" game, thinking that maybe Freddie Hubbard would have been a better call on trumpet. But listening again. I feel there is a certain brooding quality, a shadow maybe, underlying or behind the music, and I think KD captures this beautifully. The album works beautifully as-is; no need to gild a lily.

Freddie probably would have taken some of the subtlety away from the music. Some might think that would be for the better. I don't.

[skeith]

I always like albums where a great composer is introducing the compositions and playing on the album, I think that's one of the reasons PoD is so special. Hill's compositions have such a coherent and personal sensibility, and that creates a special feeling to the album.

In similar vein, I find Hill's piano playing composer-ly (in the service of the composition), rather than virtuosic (in the service of the musician). Hill was a fine pianist, but the pianism was inextricably bound up with his composing.

I was also playing the "what if?" game, thinking that maybe Freddie Hubbard would have been a better call on trumpet. But listening again. I feel there is a certain brooding quality, a shadow maybe, underlying or behind the music, and I think KD captures this beautifully. The album works beautifully as-is; no need to gild a lily.

Actually I love Andrew's piano playing and I for me it is more than just service to the composition It is certainly not virtuosic in something like a Bud Powell (for example) style...he does not spin out fast runs of notes... his solos often sound to me spare and extremely elliptical with reference to the beat... but his solos to me are riveting.... looked forward to by me... and they I don't know have some sort of inner logic. To the uninitiated I (which I am sure is not you Leeway) and even to some people who like jazz I have even heard the comment "that guy can't play" when listening to Hill solo.... I just disagree.

[relyles]

I had an interesting conversation with trumpeter Ron Horton a couple of days ago when I caught him in performance with Ben Allison. Horton was in Hill's Point of Departure sextet in the early 21st Century and was very involved with the direction of Hill's large ensembles later in his life - including directing the US/UK big band mentioned earlier in the thread. Horton was very helpful to me a few years ago when I was working on the Hill discography and we have kept in touch from time to time since then.

When discussing books of Hill's compositions that Horton was asked to work on in the past few years, he commented about how different Hill's composing process was later in his life than it was in the Blue Note days. He assumed that in the sixties Hill's process was pretty standard in that all the compositions were carefully notated on lead sheets and stuff like that (excuse me if I stated that wrong - I have no technical knowledge of music theory). Very differently, Hill did not exclusively rely on these formal techniques later, and very often in performance tunes would be pieces of several different compositions mismatched together. Hill also had a habit of giving the same composition different titles, and the same title to different compositions. I endured this frequently myself when trying to identify song titles on live recordings where the performance could be one of several different compositions.

I am very fortunate to have had opportunities to hear Hill many times from the late eighties until his death - first time with the quintet with Greg Osby, Bobby Hutcherson, Rufus Reid and Ben Riley, and subsequently in trio, quartet, quintet, the big band and a very special performance at City College with Jackie Mclean, Bobby Hutcherson, Scott Colley and Billy Higgins IIRC. The music of Andrew Hill will always be some of my favorite music of all time.

[skeith]

^{I forgot to say that I saw a wonderful duet concert with Andrew Hill and Bobby Hutcherson at Lincoln Center in the 2000s something.... fabulous.}

[Leeway]

I always like albums where a great composer is introducing the compositions and playing on the album, I think that's one of the reasons PoD is so special. Hill's compositions have such a coherent and personal sensibility, and that creates a special feeling to the album.

In similar vein, I find Hill's piano playing composer-ly (in the service of the composition), rather than virtuosic (in the service of the musician). Hill was a fine pianist, but the pianism was inextricably bound up with his composing.

I was also playing the "what if?" game, thinking that maybe Freddie Hubbard would have been a better call on trumpet. But listening again. I feel there is a certain brooding quality, a shadow maybe, underlying or behind the music, and I think KD captures this beautifully. The album works beautifully as-is; no need to gild a lily.

Actually I love Andrew's piano playing and I for me it is more than just service to the composition It is certainly not virtuosic in something like a Bud Powell (for example) style...he does not spin out fast runs of notes... his solos often sound to me spare and extremely elliptical with reference to the beat... but his solos to me are riveting.... looked forward to by me... and they I don't know have some sort of inner logic. To the uninitiated I (which I am sure is not you Leeway) and even to some people who like jazz I have even heard the comment "that guy can't play" when listening to Hill solo.... I just disagree.

Actually, I feel perpetually uninitiated . As I said in my earlier post, I think Hill was "a fine pianist." My point was that I feel that Hill was more interested in getting his compositions played in the way he heard them, than in the pianism itself. I could be over-valuing the former and under-valuing the latter, but I do kind of see it, and hear, it that way, based not just on PoD but on the body of his work. And I think that body of work will endure. That is a substantial achievement.

[paul secor]

I always like albums where a great composer is introducing the compositions and playing on the album, I think that's one of the reasons PoD is so special. Hill's compositions have such a coherent and personal sensibility, and that creates a special feeling to the album.

In similar vein, I find Hill's piano playing composer-ly (in the service of the composition), rather than virtuosic (in the service of the musician). Hill was a fine pianist, but the pianism was inextricably bound up with his composing.

I was also playing the "what if?" game, thinking that maybe Freddie Hubbard would have been a better call on trumpet. But listening again. I feel there is a certain brooding quality, a shadow maybe, underlying or behind the music, and I think KD captures this beautifully. The album works beautifully as-is; no need to gild a lily.

Actually I love Andrew's piano playing and I for me it is more than just service to the composition It is certainly not virtuosic in something like a Bud Powell (for example) style...he does not spin out fast runs of notes... his solos often sound to me spare and extremely elliptical with reference to the beat... but his solos to me are riveting.... looked forward to by me... and they I don't know have some sort of inner logic. To the uninitiated I (which I am sure is not you Leeway) and even to some people who like jazz I have even heard the comment "that guy can't play" when listening to Hill solo.... I just disagree.

Actually, I feel perpetually uninitiated . As I said in my earlier post, I think Hill was "a fine pianist." My point was that I feel that Hill was more interested in getting his compositions played in the way he heard them, than in the pianism itself. I could be over-valuing the former and under-valuing the latter, but I do kind of see it, and hear, it that way, based not just on PoD but on the body of his work. And I think that body of work will endure. That is a substantial achievement.

I agree with your opinion that composition and the way his music was played seemed to be more important to Andrew Hill than just being a pianist. Then again, only Andrew Hill knew what the real story was.

[Guy Berger]

I love Andrew's piano playing; I definitely wouldn't characterize him as playing "composer's piano". I mean, that intro to "Teeter Totter" on OUR THING!

Edited March 26, 2014 by Guy

[colinmce]

Not unlike Mal Waldron or Ran Blake, he doesn't have to play a lot to get his point across.

[JSngry]

I was born in 1955 & came to jesus jazz in in 1970, so I can reconcile intellectually/internally/etc all of this 50 Years Later Blue Note Music being made right at the beginning of American Beatlemania and all that was to follow. What I will never be able to process on a personal-interface level is how it was to have been aware at any even semi-serious level of both things happening concurrently and then proceeding accordingly. I mean, in 1964, how could you take Andrew Hill & A Hard Day's Night and look towards a future where both would be held as icons in groups with overlapping memberships, how the hell could you see that day coming in 1964?

By the time I got to thinking about it, it was reconcilable, because I was in the fallout of all of it, and the fallout was settling and the dusts gathering together again, as and where they could. But if you were at Ground Zero...that must have been some weird shit to prognosticate, all of it.

To me, the ace in the hole is Tony Williams. His inclusion was a stroke of genius that makes the date more than it would have been with any other drummer Hill had associated with thus far (though Roy Haynes & Elvin Jones both brought something special to his music, Haynes in particular).

You know, Tony Williams might well be the answer to my question, although maybe not right away in 1964.

[paul secor]

I love Andrew's piano playing; I definitely wouldn't characterize him as playing "composer's piano". I mean, that intro to "Teeter Totter" on OUR THING!

I don't think that anyone said that Hill played "composer's piano". That's a figment of your imagination.

Leeway did say: "In similar vein, I find Hill's piano playing composer-ly (in the service of the composition), rather than virtuosic (in the service of the musician). Hill was a fine pianist, but the pianism was inextricably bound up with his composing."

To me, that sounds a lot like Ellington. I don't think that anyone would say that Duke Ellington played "composer's piano".

Edited March 26, 2014 by paul secor