John Coltrane - Love Supreme: Live in Seattle

[JSngry]

As you know, documentation is...vague. But, Chorographers Workshop ca. 1963 (the most recent dating), the techniques are not only present, but perfected:

A few things, though... the dating is still evolving, but the dating of 1963 seems accurate enough, all things considered now that things can be evaluated more "objectively"; it's not just Gilmore either, but also Allen and Patrick as well; none of this excludes Ayler, btw. but Gilmore's and Patrick's bop groundings gave them the, for lack of a better word, "understanding" that these techniques could indeed be used to "expand" the instrument as well as "liberate" or "revolutionize" it.

As it pertains to Coltrane, ok, Coltrane was an omnivore. But as it pertains to the specifics of what Pharoah is playing on this release, it seems like much the same techique.

Not casting shade at all, if anything, hoping to shine more light.

[Guy Berger]

22 hours ago, medjuck said:

https://www.thenation.com/article/culture/coltrane-love-supreme/

Iverson on it. 

I often enjoy Iverson’s writing (and playing!) but I take major exception to this claim:

But we should also remember that the original albums signed off on by Coltrane himself are the definitive statement.
 

Coltrane died well before his time!  A lot of classic music had no opportunity to tbe “signed off”.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Guy Berger

[JSngry]

fwiw...I am just finishing up on as exhaustive as possible (meaning I don't access to any really deep-collector type stuff) examination and reordering of all Chicago Ra into chronological (again, as best as possible, and I'm still not convinced of all of Campbell's session groupings here, but he certainly is in a better place to have an opinion than me, so...). The next move for me is to do the same for all available Choreographer's Workshop Ra = anything else from the NYC period. I already have some, recently got more, and plan on using the Sun ra Bandcamp site to fill in any blanks.

At the gist of all this is something going on in another disuccion here - how much of the history of this music do you want to depend on records alone to provide. This instance here is a perfect example - not too much.

Regarding all this here, sure Trane was on the road a lot once he got his won band, but Gilmore was always in NYC with Ra, right? Strating in late 1961, definitely 1962. And when was his "hiatus" from Ra, 1965? So there he was, in the underground, but not an unknown underground to those who were in town and paying attention. Pharoah hit town in 1961(?) and moved in with Ra right away, for how long? But the association had to have beneficial, and Gilmore (as well as Patrick) was already "extending" his technique (and again, why does nobody give Marshall Allen a consideration here? He was every bit as into this as anybody. It might be an alto, but it's still a saxophone, the physics still apply, and that's what we're talking about here in terms of these techniques, physics. And jesus, OBOE!!!

And Trane would have known who to check out, period, and where they were, espeically if it was somebody he already knew and had a bond with.

Ra certainly helped us along by recording so "obsessively", but he did us no lasting favors by obfuscating his Saturn releases' dates (and sometimes personnel). So maybe it's now all getting sorted out, sorta, maybe.

Point jsut being - this music (at least this continuum of it) was totally a community music. "Records" were certainly not the object of the game, people knew that making records was a game designed to put most of the money and attention other than in their pocket, and besides, as hoary a cliche as it's become, it really was/is a spiritual music above all else...except for those who it wasn't, but you could usually tell who they were.

Bottom line - "narratives" are only as good as how much truth they have, and these days, that's increasingly diminishing (facts aplenty, though!). Does that have anything to do with a product like this one benefiting from a tight, stitched-up narrative being in place into which a product can be dropped?

You tell me...

[bertrand]

On 8/30/2021 at 3:41 PM, colinmce said:

Asked upthread but didn't hear anything: does anyone have any additional info about the December 1966 "tentet" performance at the Village Theater? Sessionographies list a "private tape" source. Does anyone know if this exists? Or does it circulate?

John Coltrane Tentet

John Coltrane, soprano, tenor sax, percussion; Pharoah Sanders, tenor sax, percussion; Alice Coltrane, piano; Jimmy Garrison, Lionel "Sonny" Johnson, bass; Rashied Ali, drums; + John Salgato, trumpet; unknown, tambura; Omar Ali, congas; Algie DeWitt, bata drum.

"Village Theatre", NYC, December 26, 1966

	unknown title	private tape
	Hymn	-
	unknown title	-
	My Favorite Things	-

My assumption about the "missing" 1966/67 studio recordings is that they perished in the fire, but does anyone know this for sure?

This pamphlet purports to be from the VT engagement:

On 8/28/2021 at 9:05 PM, david weiss said:

The box was in a bigger box that no one opened for years. This happens more than one would think and in this case, it seems to have come to light because of one person's persistence....

On 8/29/2021 at 3:41 PM, JSngry said:

Steve Griggs is a hero.

Zevvers is a...brand, at this point, 

The very first sentence in the Iverson article is misleading. There is some written music for Love Supreme at the Smithsonian. It is not of course a score in the classical sense, i.e. every note that McCoy plays is not written out, but it is some form of sheet music that I assume Coltrane brought to the session as some rough guideline.

This is not the first time he has spewed such nonsense. He played at the Atlas in DC about 8-9 years ago, and in the pre-concert chat lamented about the lack of written music in Jazz. This was just a few blocks from the Library of Congress which houses such pieces as Twin Dragon and Universe by Wayne Shorter plus lead sheets for all his classic Blue Note compositions, a bunch of Herbie Nichols pieces, recorded and unrecorded, same for Tadd Dameron and several others. A lot of these had enough material for someone to be able to play them, even if they had to make some choices regarding the composers' intentions.

So yes, not nearly as much thoroughly written-out, note for note music as in classical, but far from nothing at all. Mingus may have claimed he wrote everything on 'mental score paper', but there was also written music he chose not to give to the sidemen. Not the same thing.

This kind of claim sits uneasy with me, and perpetuates stereotypes about Jazz musicians that I am not comfortable with.

[Pim]

6 hours ago, Guy Berger said:

I often enjoy Iverson’s writing (and playing!) but I take major exception to this claim:

But we should also remember that the original albums signed off on by Coltrane himself are the definitive statement.
 

Coltrane died well before his time!  A lot of classic music had no opportunity to tbe “signed off”.

That’s a lot of nonsense indeed. I did not want to miss Transition, Sun Ship, Stellar Regions etc. Those are very definitive recordings themselves.

[danasgoodstuff]

19 hours ago, Steve Reynolds said:

Maybe correct - personally much more interested in long form group (small or large) improvisation. In other words, can the band create for an hour or even more at a time? If they incorporate some notated materials (like Tyshawn Sorey’s Pillars) that’s great as well. 

There are kinds of different ways to do things, it's just that Iverson gets under my skin sometimes (and sometimes not) and 'long-form = better' is naff upper class prejudice, and there's no need to say who's better at it, alt least not til you've fully explored all the different ways it can work.

[Dub Modal]

Allen Iverson >>>>>>>>...the other Iverson. Dude is just not my cup o' tea. 

[hbbfam]

4 hours ago, Dub Modal said:

Allen Iverson >>>>>>>>...the other Iverson. Dude is just not my cup o' tea. 

But boy he could shoot. 

[felser]

6 hours ago, hbbfam said:

But boy he could shoot. 

And shoot his mouth.

[medjuck]

IIRC (and I often don't)  someone here posted a link to a story that explained why Coltrane chose to play ALS that night but I can't find it.  Anyone remember where it was from?

 

Also imagine someone hearing this who had never heard the studio version.  When they finally heard the studio version would they find it too tame? 

 

[bertrand]

They are playing it right now on WEAA. Coltrane sure seems WAY low in the mix, I can barely hear him or any other horns for that matter...

Edit: He is more audible on the YouTube samples. Very odd...

Edited October 26, 2021 by bertrand

[kh1958]

28 minutes ago, bertrand said:

They are playing it right now on WEAA. Coltrane sure seems WAY low in the mix, I can barely hear him or any other horns for that matter...

Edit: He is more audible on the YouTube samples. Very odd...

Except for the final segment, Coltrane is simply not audible enough for me. Disappointed in the recording in that respect.

[bertrand]

I may decide to pass on this.

[jazzbo]

I wouldn't. It's an amazing performance with sound that I know you have learned how to listen to.

[Niko]

18 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

I wouldn't. It's an amazing performance with sound that I know you have learned how to listen to.

+1

[JSngry]

If you want to buy this just for hearing Trane loudly and clearly, then ok, decide against. But if you're interested in everything else that happened, and are happy to process all of that, then yeah, pretty much an essential item.

Personally, it's worth it for me just to check out McCoy/Elvin/Pharoah. That triangle was soon to disintegrate, but here, they are very much on the same page. Powerful stuff.

Carlos Ward's cameo is filled with urgency as well. Maybe a little shaky on the entrance, not really hitting the changes, but it's just a matter of seconds before he says Fuck Fear and just dives in. Good for him, and lucky for us!

[medjuck]

The recording reminds me of when I heard the quartet live. I was sitting on Elvin's side of the stage and I only heard Jimmy when he soloed. 

Actually I listened to the cd on head phones this am and had no trouble hearing everyone though Elvin was a bit loud. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by medjuck

[bertrand]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

If you want to buy this just for hearing Trane loudly and clearly, then ok, decide against. But if you're interested in everything else that happened, and are happy to process all of that, then yeah, pretty much an essential item.

Personally, it's worth it for me just to check out McCoy/Elvin/Pharoah. That triangle was soon to disintegrate, but here, they are very much on the same page. Powerful stuff.

Carlos Ward's cameo is filled with urgency as well. Maybe a little shaky on the entrance, not really hitting the changes, but it's just a matter of seconds before he says Fuck Fear and just dives in. Good for him, and lucky for us!

Not just Coltrane. I could not hear the horns at all, period.

[JSngry]

I did not have that problem listening either at home or in the car. Sometimes they were back there, but never to the point of inaudibilty.

[felser]

By the second time through, when I knew what to expect soundwise, it didn't really bother me, though it's far from optimal.  This performance is something very different than the original album, they strive for different ends.  This is more than twice as long, with more solos to fit in.   NOTHING will ever replace the beauty of the original for me, but this is a very necessary work to have in a different way.

[hbbfam]

I was on the fence.  Based on so many glowing reviews here and on SH, I bought the HDtrack download.  I usually have the music on, the game in background and a book.  For this release, I only had the music.  I was "uncomfortable".  It seemed I had to turn it up much louder than my normal range.  The drums were very "in your face".  In fact I cannot think of a release I have that is quite this way.  I have many jazz albums that I enjoy that were definitely an acquired taste.  This one will get several more re-listens.  But if I could magically return my download and get my $20 back, I would definitely consider it.

[Chuck Nessa]

32 minutes ago, hbbfam said:

I was on the fence.  Based on so many glowing reviews here and on SH, I bought the HDtrack download.  I usually have the music on, the game in background and a book.  For this release, I only had the music.  I was "uncomfortable".  It seemed I had to turn it up much louder than my normal range.  The drums were very "in your face".  In fact I cannot think of a release I have that is quite this way.  I have many jazz albums that I enjoy that were definitely an acquired taste.  This one will get several more re-listens.  But if I could magically return my download and get my $20 back, I would definitely consider it.

If you purchased the cd for $14 you could sell it if you wanted to.

[bertrand]

3 hours ago, JSngry said:

I did not have that problem listening either at home or in the car. Sometimes they were back there, but never to the point of inaudibilty.

I am wondering if there were problems at WEAA with their transmitter or something. I need to hear clips some other way. I probably will still get it, but there is no urgency. It's not that I don't want it, I just won't listen to it if the horns are inaudible.

A bigger question is really whether all these types of discoveries need to be made commercially available? Something like this was going to get a strong push of course, but loads of such tapes are popping up as those who have them get old and start realizing they can't take it with them. Not everything can come out, what are legal alternatives to preserve them so that present and future jazz fans can enjoy them?

 

[felser]

12 hours ago, bertrand said:

I am wondering if there were problems at WEAA with their transmitter or something. I need to hear clips some other way. I probably will still get it, but there is no urgency. It's not that I don't want it, I just won't listen to it if the horns are inaudible.

A bigger question is really whether all these types of discoveries need to be made commercially available? Something like this was going to get a strong push of course, but loads of such tapes are popping up as those who have them get old and start realizing they can't take it with them. Not everything can come out, what are legal alternatives to preserve them so that present and future jazz fans can enjoy them?

 

The horns absolutely  are not inaudible or anything close to that.  They're just lower in the mix than they should be.  The basses are also lower than they should be (and take too many solos/duos!), and Elvin is higher than he should be.    Fair point about not everything needs to be released, but this most assuredly did need to be, warts and all.   Staggeringly important historical document, and bracing if imperfect music.

[JSngry]

I like Elvin being up front like this...it's the closed I've heard to what it must have been like to be playing and have him right behind you.

I also like the bass duets a lot, Garret & Garrison together get into an interesting textural zone, what with Garret using the bow,

Actually,,,,and with the caveat that this is a "relative point" and nothing more, you could say that Trane is the least "interesting" aspect of this release...