Guy Berger

When I was a kid I was into Transformers (the 80s animated show + Hasbro toys) and got really mad at my mom when she told me that they would eventually be forgotten by our culture.

My guess is both sound equally dated to most listeners today. An 18 year old when The Wall came out is 58 years old today. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

A lot of the pieces that entered Pink Floyd's "book" in 1967-69 were avant-garde space rock jams (though I'd say that only by 1969 did they start doing justice to them) - barebones set pieces that gave the band plenty of room to experiment with sound and noise in a non-melodic way. These guys might have been influenced by free jazz, but the links that were explicitly cited were to Stockhausen and to European free improv (specifically AMM). I'm not a huge fan of watching movies of concerts, but I actually think LIVE AT POMPEII (from 1972), and the lengthy versions of "Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun" and "A Saucerful of Secrets" - give you an interesting perspective on why they weren't just influenced by avant-garde music but by avant-garde performance art more generally. Also, the guitarist is David Gilmour. The same guy who is known for tasteful, melodic, bluesy guitar solos on their megahit 1970s albums. Yes!!! The UmmaGumma live album is a convenient, "widely distributed" way to sample this music, and is far from bad, but that if you want the *best* live Floyd from this era, that's not the place to go. I like these versions fine, but they are both vastly inferior to the versions of this song the band was recording in 1969-70.

I think this is a good place to start Or this (especially the last three, lengthy tracks)

If you try acting sad, you'll only make him glad

Would be interesting to hear modern-day Murray in this kind of space...

Yes, especially live music from 1969-72

Oh no! Heal quickly Pharoah!

🙌🙌🙌

How do people feel about the analogy of 1950s west coast jazz : bebop :: downtown jazz scene: avant-garde jazz ? Yes! Please say more

Hi all, I'd be interested in people's wisdom/recollections regarding NYC's "downtown jazz" scene of the 1970s-1990s; including but not limited to its links to other jazz streams of that and future periods - i.e. AACM, BAG, the 1970s loft scene, "Nonesuch jazz", "ECM jazz", MBase, British free improv, 2000s/2010s downtown jazz (is this distinct?), the edgier side of straight ahead jazz... At the time it might have been overhyped (I imagine race might be a factor?), but a lot of interesting and influential musicians came out of here, some of whom have had big ripple effects elsewhere. Bill Frisell, John Zorn, Tim Berne, Joey Baron, Medeski Martin & Wood, there are lots of people worth mentioning here. FWIW... When I started listening to jazz back in the 1990s, coming in as a prog-rock listener, downtown stuff was often mentioned to me as THE future in jazz and THE natural heir to THE JAZZ TRADITION (often in direct distinction to / criticism of Wynton Marsalis and the Young Lions, but via omission also a criticism of contemporaneous African-American avant-gardists too). I feel like now that this scene is "ancient history" we can maybe evaluate it a little more calmly/fairly.

Santana has been "discharging an obligation" for a long time, long before Cindy Blackman joined his band. She's an excellent drummer, not sure why we'd compare her unfavorably to, of all people, Graham Lear I'm not sure you can blame Santana's post-1976 shark jump on any single person but if you had to choose just one personnel change, Lear replacing Shrieve is a top candidate

Fortunately we still have the late 60s / early 70s Santana recordings to fulfill that longing

I’ve heard some of this stuff on Spotify and it was pleasant.

My recommendation to any family of any public figure, even a relatively obscure one like Ira Gitler: for the love of God, don’t search the internet for opinions about your deceased!! re: Gitler, as a guy who often expressed strong opinions about the work of others, my guess (or hope) is he could take it as well as he could dish it out, especially if expressed as mildly and politely as on this thread.

SPIRIT OF EDEN and LAUGHING STOCK are amazing albums.

Remember when you reviewed a new Lee Konitz album cover w/ “If I didn't know who they were and saw that photo, I'd still think it was a bunch of crazyass old men. And I do mean that as a compliment.”

I don't think this thread is in any way out of the norm for this board; I have seen some far more negative. And within this thread, even the "negative" aspects have all come in the form of posts that are generally positive. Also, let's be honest about relative importance: Gitler was an interesting asterisk in the history of this music. He was a very articulate "super fan" and sort-of-critic. He wasn't one of the "creators".

This came out today, my CD is on the way but am giving it a spin on spotify... really good, a worthy sequel to Torn's superb PREZENS (which is a personal fave). A delicious slab of cosmic, noisy post-rock.

I always thought of Ira Gitler as a very articulate bebop "superfan", not really a critic. He loved this music and it came through in his writing, and made it a pleasure to read. I'd much rather read his liner notes than those by some of his more polished contemporaries. If I had to analogize, he reminds me of Bill Simmons. I think when he shifted into "critic" mode he was on much shakier ground but, who cares.

RIP. I am only familiar with his work via the final two Talk Talk albums but they are really great.

Have heard some of his stuff on Spotify... very good

I just picked up their most recent on Intakt, VISITING TEXTURE. I don’t think it will convert the unconvinced but it’s good.

@mjzee, thanks for sharing these (as well your various posts on the “new releases” page”.

Have listened to the first two discs so far (MYTHS MODES & MEANS and WAY OF THE CIPHER). Really great stuff, esp MM&M. It’s interesting how much more organic and loose Steve’s approach has become over the past 24 yrs.