Guy Berger

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How do people feel about the analogy of 1950s west coast jazz : bebop :: downtown jazz scene: avant-garde jazz ? Yes! Please say more

Hi all, I'd be interested in people's wisdom/recollections regarding NYC's "downtown jazz" scene of the 1970s-1990s; including but not limited to its links to other jazz streams of that and future periods - i.e. AACM, BAG, the 1970s loft scene, "Nonesuch jazz", "ECM jazz", MBase, British free improv, 2000s/2010s downtown jazz (is this distinct?), the edgier side of straight ahead jazz... At the time it might have been overhyped (I imagine race might be a factor?), but a lot of interesting and influential musicians came out of here, some of whom have had big ripple effects elsewhere. Bill Frisell, John Zorn, Tim Berne, Joey Baron, Medeski Martin & Wood, there are lots of people worth mentioning here. FWIW... When I started listening to jazz back in the 1990s, coming in as a prog-rock listener, downtown stuff was often mentioned to me as THE future in jazz and THE natural heir to THE JAZZ TRADITION (often in direct distinction to / criticism of Wynton Marsalis and the Young Lions, but via omission also a criticism of contemporaneous African-American avant-gardists too). I feel like now that this scene is "ancient history" we can maybe evaluate it a little more calmly/fairly.

Santana has been "discharging an obligation" for a long time, long before Cindy Blackman joined his band. She's an excellent drummer, not sure why we'd compare her unfavorably to, of all people, Graham Lear I'm not sure you can blame Santana's post-1976 shark jump on any single person but if you had to choose just one personnel change, Lear replacing Shrieve is a top candidate

Fortunately we still have the late 60s / early 70s Santana recordings to fulfill that longing

I’ve heard some of this stuff on Spotify and it was pleasant.

My recommendation to any family of any public figure, even a relatively obscure one like Ira Gitler: for the love of God, don’t search the internet for opinions about your deceased!! re: Gitler, as a guy who often expressed strong opinions about the work of others, my guess (or hope) is he could take it as well as he could dish it out, especially if expressed as mildly and politely as on this thread.

SPIRIT OF EDEN and LAUGHING STOCK are amazing albums.

Remember when you reviewed a new Lee Konitz album cover w/ “If I didn't know who they were and saw that photo, I'd still think it was a bunch of crazyass old men. And I do mean that as a compliment.”

I don't think this thread is in any way out of the norm for this board; I have seen some far more negative. And within this thread, even the "negative" aspects have all come in the form of posts that are generally positive. Also, let's be honest about relative importance: Gitler was an interesting asterisk in the history of this music. He was a very articulate "super fan" and sort-of-critic. He wasn't one of the "creators".

This came out today, my CD is on the way but am giving it a spin on spotify... really good, a worthy sequel to Torn's superb PREZENS (which is a personal fave). A delicious slab of cosmic, noisy post-rock.

I always thought of Ira Gitler as a very articulate bebop "superfan", not really a critic. He loved this music and it came through in his writing, and made it a pleasure to read. I'd much rather read his liner notes than those by some of his more polished contemporaries. If I had to analogize, he reminds me of Bill Simmons. I think when he shifted into "critic" mode he was on much shakier ground but, who cares.

RIP. I am only familiar with his work via the final two Talk Talk albums but they are really great.

Have heard some of his stuff on Spotify... very good

I just picked up their most recent on Intakt, VISITING TEXTURE. I don’t think it will convert the unconvinced but it’s good.

@mjzee, thanks for sharing these (as well your various posts on the “new releases” page”.

Have listened to the first two discs so far (MYTHS MODES & MEANS and WAY OF THE CIPHER). Really great stuff, esp MM&M. It’s interesting how much more organic and loose Steve’s approach has become over the past 24 yrs.

The original post is basically a less funny, 67 year lag version of “the jerk store called, they’re running out of YOU!”

Yeah, I don’t really get why someone would care enough to post this, much less think this was a clever zinger. But such is the nature of trolls.

FWIW I listened to about half of the new Alessi (IMAGINARY FRIENDS) and it was better than I expected. Comfortably within the “American jazz on ECM” tradition, may be too sleepy for some but mild ECM skeptics would probably enjoy.

Not surprising given it is ECM. Would you recommend skipping the album? very excited about Sun of Goldfinger, hope my dreams aren’t shattered

1966-67 was the sweet spot for Cannonball in terms of balancing the focus/punchiness of his earlier work and the adventurousness/openness of his latest work

Was thinking the same thing. Would be a fun thread to start.

What’s in the next set of 25?

I saw him at SFJazz in 2017 and it was great. Our daughter was still in utero but must have liked it too because she kicked a lot during the performance.