Big Beat Steve

My entries into West coast Jazz (as a gradual expansion of my interest in jazz which has started age 14/15, starting with classic jazz and swing and then moving into bebop) came from tracks heard in jazz shows on radio which prompted me to search out the LPs that the tunes that really caught my ear came from. Among my very earliest WCJ records bought were Shorty Rogers' "West Coast Jazz" on Atlantic and Shelly Manne 's "The West Coast Sound" on Contemporary, both of which I bought whan I was about to leave high school and go to University. Others that triggered my curiosity were original pressings of the "Assorted Flavors of Pacific Jazz" and "Something for Both Ears" Pacific Jazz samplers (as well as a more recent PJ compilation reissue) that came my way at a garage sale. Gerry Mulligan's early quartet followed soon after (my first one was an original 10" French Vogue pressing of early PJ sesions which a fellow collector from our 50s rock'n'troll cicrcles came up with one day but as he was into straight 50s rock'n'roll this was "too far out" for him so I was glad to take it off his hands and swap it for something more up his alley). Like the thread starter said, it probably was (and still is) the general feel and groove of the music that (within the scope of jazz) you imagine perfectly fits the idea you make yourself of sunny 50s California or a thoroughly jazz-flavored sunny summer feeling in general (no "angry young men" there ... ). There are moments when the mood you want to be projected in the jazz you prefer to listen to at a given moment is captured best by WCJ (of oucrse there are other moments too, but ... ) And things went from there and still haven't stopped ...

Wow! Must have!

Oh........ how times have changed! The difference between "WAG" and "wag", it seems ...

So ... I have taken the plunge and ordered the book ... And I think I've found a good solution for Europeans wishing to order this book from outside Sweden: I ordered through www.ginza.se and they charge a flat shipping fee of 99 SEK for shippings all through the EU. See for yourself on the above website - go to "Kundservice" (Customer Service) and then to "European Delivery". This is quite a bit more affordable than the shipping cost indicated by Daniel (which appears to be on the low side for actual shipping costs anyway because Bokus.se quoted almost 280 SEK for shipping costs). I paid through Paypal and the order confirmation from Ginza arrived at once. So let's see how long it will take for the book to arrive. Ginza says the book will ship within 3 to 6 days (other sites claim 1 to 2 days) but with international shipments I think the difference will be negligible because you never know where things might be delayed in transit. Not wanting to plug that site (this is my first order with them) but they seem to be a good address for a lot of items connected with music; in fact I remember seeing regular ads by Ginza on 50s music CDs in Swedish collector's car mags that also cover 50s music and related "lifestyle" to some extent. Hope their speed of service will live up to their publicity.

Thanks, Daniel. This is more or less what I figured (from past experience). But considering the price paid for similar books elsewhere ... (Or to put it another way: If the book is of the 28x28 cm coffee-table variety (like it seems) and of a presentation to match, then the book itself isn't THAT expensive, so .... ) I have written to Bokus this morning to inquire and they have acknolwedged recipt but have not replied to my question yet. We'll see ...

Adlibris would have been a bit cheaper but if they don't ship aborad ... Ginza.se have a list price that is a wee bit (not much) above that of Bokus. We'll see ... Maybe some of the Swedish forumists around here might have a hint to add?

It should be available outside Sweden via Bokus. See their English-language FAQs. They specifically list both Germany and France. It just is so that shipping costs from Sweden are not exactly cheap (I've bought from private and professional sellers on a number occasions from Sweden in recent years). And this book weighs close to 2 kg.

Thanks, King Ubu. In fact I have considered this address but had also wondered about www.adlibris.com But I am not sure they ship abroad. Might have to ask ...

Me too! Must have! Thanks for making us aware of this release. Must find an ordering source fast.

Not quite. The four tracks from the April 26, 1955 session are on "Showcase" (JASCD 616) but the four tracks from the April 23, 1956 session are on "Opus De Funk" (JASCD 621), and only two of the 4 tracks from the 1956 session (i.e. 6 out of the total of 8 beer-related titles) were included on the "Pub Crawling" LP on Contemporary.

+1 for Rolf Ericson's Swedish rcordings. I was going to mention MILES AWAY in my earlier post but decided to restrain myself. But now that it's mentioned ... (and maybe to bring the recommendations back into the MIDDLE of the time frame originally mentioned by the thread starter, instead of its tail end ... ) The MILES AWAY CD really is something else. Don't know how to describe it, but Ericson's Swedish recordings from that period have a "bite" and punch of their own. The Arne Domnérus/Rolf Ericson CD on Dragon (DRCD 381) is also recommended more or less along the same lines.

Good to see that this is settled, Simon. To concretize my recommendations above: I've always have had a soft spot for the Lars Gullin 2-LP reissues of his 50s work done by Metronome in the 70s and the "Fine Together" 2-LP set reissued by Sonet (featuring late 50s Gullin) but they are long OOP. For his 50s recordings I'd suggest you check out the Lars Gullin CD series reissued in more recent times on Metronome ("The Legendary Years") as well as the reissues featuring Gullin on the (Swedish) Dragon label. Am not familiar with his later recordings so you will have to wait for others to chime in. Hans Koller: The Saba LP "Exclusiv" from the mid-60s is very nice but probalby excedingly difficult to find. WIthin the time frame you mentioned, "Vision" on the Saba label also is a fine one, I understand (though I have no idea if and where it has been reissued). http://www.discogs.com/Hans-Koller-Vision/release/2531599 Prime Hans Koller from the 50s is on these two CDs: - "Some Winds" (2-CD set on the Austrian RST label, featuring recordings he did in Austria) - "Musician Of The Year" (on the Jazz Realities label) - a reissue of his three 10-inch LPs on the legendary (German) MOD label. And speaking of Martial Solal: Koller's Collaboration with Solal on ths 1965 LP might also be worth a try: http://www.discogs.com/Attila-Zoller-Hans-Koller-Martial-Solal-Attila-Zoller-Hans-Koller-Martial-Solal/release/1720925 Michael Naura: His 1963 album "European Jazz Sounds" on Brunswick seems to have been reissued on CD in recent years: http://www.discogs.com/Michael-Naura-Quintet-European-Jazz-Sounds/release/2814824 Earlier (50s) recordings by Naura were issued on various EPs but I am not sure of recent reissues and his later recordings cover different ground, style-wise.

"Un-American Jazz!" Whew ... That topic title almost came across like a KKK witch hunt call! :crazy: Now, seriously: To answer your question, what one would have to know a little better is Where would you want to draw a line between what you would call "pastiche of American jazzz" and what you would find acceptable for its own self? Wonder how many American jazzmen would just have been doing "pastiches" of other (more renowned, more innovative) American jazzmen too, BTW? Be careful not to fall into the Down Beat review rut of calling everything "derivative" that isn't wildly innovative (and then bound to drift beyond what might still be called jazz by many criteria). Anyway ... If you want to start off in a relatively classic modern jazz vein, try Lars Gullin, and Jan Johansson from Sweden. Jan Johansson's interweaving of jazz and Swedish folk tunes is quite fascinating and very much a class by itself. Bengt-Arne Wallin's "Old Folklore in Swedish Modern" would fall into much the same bracket. There are many, many more from post-war Sweden that I find could very well stand on their own but again, it depends on how far your "pastiche" idea would go and to what extent you exclusively want things to come from the "bop" side and not from the "cool" side.. From (West) Germany: Klaus Doldinger, Hans Koller, Albert Mangelsdorff, Michael Naura (just as starters). There are many more from the 70s Free Jazz scene but others wil be more qualified to tell you about "un-American" acts of note.

+1 Some rather favorable comments here made me consider getting this eventually (for the new research findings) after all but Larry thankfully has set things straigtht. No doubt there are nuggets hidden in there but I don't feel like wading through THAT much pompousness trying to dig for them. Just not an even tradeoff IMO ... Priestley and/or Haddix, you can have my money ...

When I was at a public station here in Toronto, I offered to play listeners' favourites when they made a donation. One of the telephone volunteers passed on a request for "Big Spider Beck". :lol: So it wasn't the listener who sent in the request that way but some clueless typist transcribed the listener's phone call like that??

i.e. John Tefteller?

@Rob/rgodridge: Here is a BN labelography that should tell you quite a bit about teh different pressings and reissues and their overall evluation. This document is not up to date (it is from 1997/1999) and therefore does not include the recent vinyl reissues but it should include some useful info about the "usual" secondhand BN vinyl pressings that are out there: http://kleene.ss.uci.edu/~rmay/Bluenote.html

Yes, stil wondering about that ... But are you sure we aren't talking about Benny Bennet? (After all, this spelling would almost be more correct because the slipups are in ONE word only instead of both )

No, OJC never handled Blue Note on vinyl. OJC is the reissue "header" for the labels of the Prestige/Fantasy/Milestone/RIverside family, so a bit different. Deciding which AFFORDABLE BN's sound best is a subjective and probably a bit controversial amter (at least among label fetishists) so you'll have to wait for answers from BN geeks to get the REAL details. As a "normal" listener and fan, I'd say that the 60s Liberty pressings of the BN LPs offer about the best fidelity/price tradeoff - along with certain very well-done Japanese reissues, of course. But as there have been different reissue series and pressing runs of the Japanese reissues through the years, you will have to wait for word from the fanatics again. Many say that you ought to avoid the quite affordable reissues marked "DMM" (Direct Metal Mastering) and pressed in France that were around a lot in the 80s/90s. I found the sound of these a bit harsh and "tinny" on some reissues indeed but am fairly satisfied with others from that series. So the actual quality apparently varies, probably depending on what the original recording was like and what you are accustomed to. On the other hand, speaking of comparatively affordable BN 1500s, I found the early 80s reissues reissued by "Pathé-Marconi EMI" (indicated in fine print in the CENTER at the bottom of the back sleeve and NOT having the DMM logo) to be quite acceptable and to offer relatively good value for money. Don't know about today's price rate for secondhand items from this series and don't know if I am committing heresy in putting a word in for them but hey ... at the time they cost about one third to one fourth of what a Japanese import LP would have set you back here.

Even then ... Maybe the hep blurb by "The Stomach That Walks Like A Man'" in between the tracks might make for some very "period-correct" amusement ...

Agreed, King Ubu. If it were ALL about ARTIST royalties. I am still awaiting definitive statements that those who obtain licenses from the majors for reissuing products that have already entered the public domain will actually pay money to the artists by obtaining these licenses. I.e. will the majors who license recordings for reissue to one of those reissue labels use the revenue from the licenses to pay artist royalties and the artists and their heirs even once those records have entered the public domain? In a niche market such as jazz? And will they do so now even for those artists whom they haven't even paid at the time those recordings were released and in current print? And is this the case with ALL of the Japanese reissues too? And if they don't then what's the difference between those who don't and ANY of the P.D. labels?

Yes, of course, Hans. And now it is up to each and everyone to decide individually if the fidelity difference warants other complications, additional expenses, etc. Sometimes it objectively makes a difference, sometimes it doesn't. To some the difference is immaterial (because hardly noticeable on THEIR equipment that THEY are perfectly satisfied with, which is a point that is for NOBODY else to judge EVER, BTW) whereas to others it is a matter of principle (for whatever reason ...). And to others the aspect of product presentation (liner notes, booklets et.c) is another important criterion. Now where does the ARTIST royalty aspect come in again THERE? Besides, you ought to know quite well that one cannot generalize in this debate. Fresh Sound is one matter. They may reissue stuff than can be found elsewhere (personally I find the way they have recently been delving into what used to be OJC territory of fairly little interest) but they did and do reissue items that nobody ever bothered about anywhere else (with the possible exception of some obscure long-OOP Japanese reissue that may have popped up briefly and then vanished again and therefore is totally immaterial in this ENTIRE debate of whether there is a "legit" alternative to FS - and like David Ayers said, once the European PD rules are respected these things ARE legal over here). A different matter are those P.D. labels (some of them found way outside Spain, as you know) that indeed just re-reissue easily accessible items that had only relatively recently been released or reissued by those who did all the remastering work. This just ain't right. If you want to reissue stuff then do your own field work, even if you take FULLL advantage of all the P.D. leeway that these rules offer you. Which is why I buy Uptown releases only from Uptown as a matter of principle and avoid those piggyback riders (that follow in the wake of Uptown reissues) like the plague. But is this something that you can accuse Fresh Sound of across their ENTIRE product range? Differentiating in this debate really is way overdue.

In fact I do think this is the main point in what Bear Family actually does about "licensing" stuff. I can't put my finger on it but I remeber discussing this aspect in passing with one Bear Family employee at a record fair when the subject of the way they do their box sets came up. They pick their sources carefully and in a targeted manner and then cover those fields in full. It certainly is no coincidence they covered the MERCURY label's files in all fields of music THAT extensively. They must have made a deal at one point that they have free rein in the Mercury archives and files so they cover the entire field in great depth (I am not talking about jazz, specifically, of course). Makes sense if you are in the reissue field and have access to the source. BTW, for all the uncharted territory that the Fresh Sound label thankfully makes accessible again, one thing that puts me off in a big way is their 2 LP on one CD policy where you indeed often end up having one LP (half the CD) already. I fully agree with King Ubu that this is not exactly to the strictest benefit of advanced collectors. Though I feel one major reason of theirs is that they recycle their past VINYL catalog that way. A lot of those cases where I find I already have one of the two LPs on their reissue CDs are those where I already have the Fresh Sound vinyl they issued in the 80s (I have a LOT of these). It's a policy I don't like and often I cannot be bothered to go for the second half but sometimes it is a pity. But other buyers probably wont even mind because they don't even want to be bothered with vinyl amnymore and have gone 100% CD long since. But FS aren't alone in such recycling practices that don't allow you to fill gaps in your collection in an EFFICIENT manner.

This discussion is getting skewed.. Let me ask a question (again) that seems to be overlooked conveniently by some here in discussions like this on this forum: Do we know for sure that ALL the Japanese reissue labels pay ARTIST royalties? (Never mind what the biggies cash in among themselves, all of you , you are worried about the ARTISTS getting their fair share even once the 50.-year Euroepan Public Domain lable applies, right?). Did the Japanese? Do they? All of them? And if they didn't are those who didn't any better than the much-maligned Euopean P.D. reissues? Greasing the palms of the majors is not the issue, I think - paying to the artists themselves is. Just one example: A couple of months ago a discussion of the JAZZHUS label was started here on this board. Checking out their website made me sit up and note one particular item: "New Jazz from the Old World" by a so-called "European Jazz Quartet". This in fact is the Wolfgang Lauth Quartet from Germany (a "local hero" of 50s jazz in Southern Germany, if you want ...). I'd been aware of this release for a long time, particularly since I read a review of it in an early volume of the "Down Beat Record Reviews" yearboks, as this release on the obscure Pulse lable stands out as a real oddity among the leader's 50s discography which otherwise consistently was on German Telefunken. This reissue gives a U.S. address for the Jazzhus operation (though, as mentioned in the discussion, the Japanese characters on the Obi strip make this look like a Japanese reissue after all) and mentions something of having been licensed by arrangement with the copyright proprietor. No idea what this EXACTLY means on the bottom line - Fresh Sound did use similar terms on some of their reissues too (not to mention those Fresh Sound reissues that are strictly legal and endorsed by the original label owners). But be that as it may - did any of the money from this release find its way (beyond some scheming entrepreneur who might have bought the official rights to the Pulse back catalog at one time in the past) into the bank accounts of the estate of Wolfgang Lauth and his fellow musicians? I really wonder ...

The point is ... it's not only the Andorrans/Spanish if you care to look closely and compare.