Big Beat Steve

@Jsngry: Yes you ARE splitting hairs. I just said I prefer his recordings from his pre-Asian period. To anyone even superficially aware of what he did, hat defines them (at least roughly) in the chronology of his recorded works. Whatever he did later is BESIDE THE POINT. I did NOT dwell on these. So there is nothing to be "factually" or even historically wrong or right about. (In fact it would be historically wrong to claim that e.g. a preference for the works of an artist from period 1 that predated period 2 would by inference state ANYTHING about period 3) And no, there is no overriding truth in how to approach diverse discographies such as his. You are free to have the last word you so desire in (pointless) rounds like this you like to fuel ever so often but again - there is no mandatory way to justify preferences - or to justify them at all. They are just matters of taste, purely and simply.

Ah, JSangrey splitting hairs again ... If you look at his stylistic evolution you will find that, chronologically speaking, there is a period BEFORE the "Asian" recordings (it's up to you if you consider Zen meditation, for example, being sufficiently Asian-influenced to file them under "Asia"), and his earlier output ranks stylistically "before" these "Asian" recordings so that's that. Whatever there is in "post-Asian" is beside the point because it's not what I was thinking of (neither, I would assume, by Peter Friedmann nor Jazzcorner). (As for the 1962 Asia tour (see the recent Lost Tapes release), I haven't heard it yet so won't comment on that.) And at any rate this nitpicking is pointless. Tony Scott had different "periods" so it is only natural that these would appeal quite differently to people because the musical contents were deeply different.

It is an approximation, nothing more. Not a definition of a specific cutoff date carved in rock. Looking at his overall discography, the basic idea should be clear, though.

So I assume that version is THY DEFINITIVE VERSION, right?

For obvious reasons I prefer the pre-Asian recordings by Tony Scott too - but that's a matter of basic approach to his music which may vary a LOT according to each indvidual's tastes in jazz. OTOH, I msut admit there are moments when I find Scott's preference for the higher register of his instrument a bit grating even on these 50s sessions. Re- the last-mentioned recordings, I remember having read a rave review of the "Message from Garcia" LP (mostly for Garcia's guitar palying, of course) recently but cannot track it down right now to quote. I guess I'll give the LP a spin tonight (it's been a long time since last time ... ).

@Rabshakeh: These sessions should be easy enough to track down after all. Here is a 2CD set that combines the three LPs in their original track order (as far as I can check). So you can listen to them piecemeal LP-wise if you prefer. https://www.freshsoundrecords.com/tony-scott-bill-evans-albums/2454-a-day-in-new-york-2-cds.html?search_query=Tony+Scott&results=76 And if you want vinyl after all, the "Modern Art of Jazz" LP on Seeco was reissued on vinyl by Fresh Sound back in the day when they did vinyl (in decent enough sound quality - am just listening to it now). So secondhand copies certainly are around.

A side note: Having read this in several posts from you by now, I suppose you realize that "THEE" means "YOU" and not "THE"? Just sayin' (Yes I found the band name "Thee Milkshakes" inane from the very first time I read it )

And the way we heard it over here it always sounded like "Chuckie's in love". Who woulda thunk this referred to anyone but an imaginary person?

@Rabshakeh, getting back to your other thread about European jazz from 1945-69, how about this one to combine BOTH threads? https://www.discogs.com/de/Tony-Scott-2-And-Horst-Jankowski-Trio-In-Concert/release/6479437 Don't be misled by the cover - the music is from 1957 when Tony Scott looked as much different from his Asian period as his music was different (though IMO, relatively speaking he often was farther out on his 50s recordings than you would have expected). At any rate, it's an interesting combination that works well enough - and this at a festival in a country where they spell jazz "Dzez" (no kidding!) (BTW, see how erratic Discogs sometimes is? There is another CD release of this one listedn on Discogs and there the muisc is described as "Smooth Jazz". Ha! The description under the above entry is more to the point.)

I cannot comment on the contents, of course, but from your description this basically sounds to me like this book is another example of French publishing houses willing to take MUCH more chances with niche subjects and publish them in a decent form to give exposure to the authors and their writing and thorough research - way more than in other countries, e.g. Germany, for exampre, where highly specialized minority-interest subjects like this no doubt would force the authors into self-publication or print-on-demand at best. I have seen other cases like this among French non-fiction publications and IMO this alone speaks for the book.

Are there any records that are "un-sociable" as long as they are stored away on the shelves? How many are there among your visitors who browse the spines of your records with any stamina? I find I am usually the "odd man out" at a friend's place when I take a closer or longer look at his collection (a fairly decent one) almost every time we are there on a visit (though the get-togethers there usually include several music fans/record collectors).

A bit late (sorry) but better late than never ... Here is the page with noteworthy East German jazz vinyl from the GDR included in the Fascination Jazz book. The listing is roughly chronologcal, covering the 1960 to 1973 period. Of course this is not all there was but it's a good cross-section.

Not much free wall space at all in my "music room" either, so apart from a few framed Herman Leonard photographs and two 50s jazz calendars, just enough space to make use of this 12" 78er (Eddie Heywood on Signature) which had a chunk cracked off but by sheer conicidence I soon after found an intact copy of this very record so was able to complete the album and put this one to decorative use in the narrowish corner between the vinyl LP wall and the window ... ... and then this one pinned up above the door (where no record shelves fit) - another chance purchase just for its cheesecake cover (the music doesn't grab me much) ...

The LPs I showed are just those (with noteworthy covers) that I have in my collection (in addition to the Mulligan LP on Fantasy that BillF showed). So there certainly is more to explore for those interested.

This is quite an ODD way to describe his activities in those days - to say the least ... He was leading his own big band when Cohn and Sims were still section men. Etc. 96 was a long run. Thanks for the music. RIP.

Jazz went through various alternating periods of liberalism and clamping down in the GDR through the 50s and 60s so this is a very complicated history. As for the 70s and Euro-Free Jazz (that was particularly intense in Eastern Europe, including the GDR), there were exchanges, though I do not know a lot about it as Euro-Free is not my center of interest in jazz. But i do know that the Gumpert/Sommer Duo + Manfred Hering had releases on FMP in the 70s, as did the Ernst-Ludwig Petrowsky Quartet. So the West German "scene" labels were not above leasing masters from the GDR. Western records (not just jazz - everything) in the GDR of course were always rare and pricey (literally black-market items), though there at least was a steady trickle of Western jazz recordings leased by Amiga.

@ medjuck: Maybe because the year it was founded (1974) was outside the time frame that Rabshakeh asked about ...

@Rabshakeh: "Government published" is hard to define in a Communist setting. It was published by the "VEB Lied der Zeit" üuslbishign house in East Berlin that also operated the Amiga (and Eterna etc.) record labels of the GDR. It is largely a picture book but also has (German) texts on the East German jazz scene - including coverage of (not extremely numerous) visits by U.S. and British stars as well as the happenings of Eastern Europeran jazz scene of the early 70s and its artists (many Polish and Czech as they were very present in the GDR), and while it also covers amateurs and the Trad scene it is HEAVY on modern jazz (which in that case leans towards the Euro-"Free" side, given what was happening in the early 70s). Considering its origins, it was VERY well done. Also because the author of the text was the #1 jazz scribe of the GDR and managed not to be too much engulfed by Communist obligations but steered a course that was at least halfway objective and broad-minded. Tomorrow I'll try to scan the page with the record list (which is not comprehensive for that roughly 1960 to 1973 period but a starter).

Apart from the music, it's apparently an interesting record production that reflects its times. Rolf Kühn had left Eastern Germany in the early 50s and in 1956 went straight to the USA where he continued his career, and returned to WEST Germany in 1962. The above session from late 1964 was indeed released under Rolf Kühn's name (despite the fact that he had defected from the GDR) and the liner notes are surprisingly even-handed and balanced, mention his U.S. stay in due form and do not fall into the anti-Western "capitalist/commercial curruption" propaganda that was seen elsewhere. In 1966 Kühn managed to get his much younger brother Joachim (part of the line-up) out of the GDR via a musical tour in Vienna, and this may have caused the LP not to be repressed (as claimed by the Discogs entry). But the Discogs claim that "the musicians" fled the GDR after the session is not correct. And repressings of 60s GDR jazz records were VERY rare in the GDR anyway. At any rate, the regime (or the heads of the State music departments) cannot have been irked by the defection of Joachim Kühn for very long because the "Fascination Jazz" book published in the GDR in 1973 DOES list this particular record among the "important GDR jazz productions", although the record was credited to a "Workshop group" ("jazz workshops" were common aggregations in Eastern Europe in those years) and the line-up indicated did not single out Rolf Kühn as the nominal leader.

Like I said in that "other" thread yesterday. Having done Eurojazz listening all day (as a background to that other thread), I think I will pull out my copy of that one next.

Thank you - you make me blush. But also acutely aware of what I DON'T know and have never been able to hear (and likely never will).

No, I don't. I've heard and read about it, but that's all. I guess you are right about the copious use of the word "problem" in those days but IMO Hodeir had a knack of turning almost everything into an ivory-towerish "problem" of deep-deeper probing dimensions (or at least presenting it as such). It may sound sacrilegious but there were times when I had worked my way through one of his all too theoreticizing pieces in "Jazz Hot" and was left somewhat bewildered (by all the dissecting he did that clouded out much of the core of jazz - and I hasten to add that it was NOT a problem of any lack of knowledge of the French language) that I really had to do some "contrasting" reading in copies of Hugues Panassié's "Bulletin du Hot Club de France" from roughly the same period to get GROUNDED again ...

Thanks for that overview on those early Belgian LPs. I had never thought of checking out discogs. That places my Herman Sandy LP in context. Re- Dutch recordings available now: I suppose there is a fair bit of Rita Reys around, and have you checked out what the Nederlands Jazz Archief has reissued on MODERN jazz? E.g. the "Combo's in Nederland" CDs? I have only ever got my hands on Vol. 1 ("Liefde in Rhythme - 1947-51" which essentially is Swing and touches just about on the very first hints of modern jazz in the Netherlands). Was there ever a Vol. 2, I wonder? Judging from your comments about Dutch modern jazz, I suppose I also did well with these chance purchases (one on Ebay, one at a local record shop where they clearly were put off by the worn sleeve and priced it accordingly )?

50s/60s Danish jazz had a LOT of "Trad", but some (modernist) names to check out from before the NHØP heyday, apart from drummer William Schiøpffe who was on countless sessions outside Denmark (often in Sweden): Jørgen Ryg Max Brüel (who had the misfortune of seeing several of his 1955 Metronome EPs issued in the US on an EmArcy LP that was blasted roundly in a one-(!!)star review in DB, blaming every imaginable facet of poorness and copycatting on Brüel and his crew. Not that the record was a standout in the annals of recorded jazz, and Brüel had clearly listened to Gerry Mulligan, but it don't sound that bad ...Maybe it grated on the reviewer that they decided to treat "Indiana" as a restrained, low-key ballad, for example?) Bent Axen (incidentally, NHØP made his very first recordings with him in 1961) Jazz Quintet 60 (feat. Bent Jaedig, Allan Botschinsky et al. - I think their original EPs are among those that make/made the Japanese go crraaaazy in thier auction bidding ) Erik Moseholm and then, going beyond 100% Danish lineups, Rolf Billberg's Danish recordings form 1956/57 (reissued on Storyville), the Oscar Pettiford recordings with Danish groups, or the 1965 LP by Sahib Shihab with the Danish Radio Jazz Group (on Oktav OKLP 111 - an excellently replicated facsimile reissue LP appeared a couple of years ago). And THEN - there were these retrospective compilations: "Danish Jazz in the 50s" - vols. 1 and 2: https://www.discogs.com/de/Various-Danish-Jazz-In-The-50s-Vol-1-Bop-And-Mainstream/master/434418 (Sorry, Vol. 2 - on Olufsen 6001 - does not seem to be on Discogs)

I suppose in the same vein you can only take classical music performed by AMERICAN symphony orchestras seriously to the point they stopped trying to play like typical (forcibly and obviously Europan-sounding) orchestras performing classical works or, more consequently still, not borrow from the works of European masters but Charles Ives etc. (standing "YOUR" - American - ground). Right? Of course this is a rhetorical question or retort. One that has no definite answer and is pointless to elaborate on. Just like in jazz it is very much open to debate where Europeans tried to play like "Americans" (beyond the basics of the style(s) of jazz as such which made their music "jazz"). Many of the Europeans - even in the 50s - had their own nuances and touches which set them apart, even without the crutches of devices from classical music. It's all in the ear of the behearer, and after all, to most of the European jazzmen it was just a case of making the music they had discoverd for themselves and loved to get into and do themselves. Nothing wrong with that (except that supremely swinging rhythm sections at times were somewhat thin on the ground ). No absolute truth there in attempting to decree that there was excessive copying - which anyway often sounded like Americans afraid of losing their hegemony on "their" music - a music still too often ignored and slighted in THEIR country in those years ... Because overall, "copying" and lack or originality - by THAT yardstick - happened with US jazzmen too. Re- John Lewis, I definitely won't claim I am an expert on his recorded works, but have been exposed to a share of it from that period and I certainly would NOT think his Swingle Singers/MJQ LP is that atypical of his works from that period (I have the LP but cannot bring myself to listening to it now, sorry ). At least not as far as his work in Europe went. He epitomized the symbiosis of jazz and classical music that was hoped for in many circles in Europe in the late 50s and early 60s. And in that respect he explored almost every direction, it seems. Remember e.g. the scores he did with classical orchestras. He not only recorded (wit the MJQ and on his own) with large symphony orchestras - incuding here in Germany - but also composed and scored and performed with these symphony orchestras for German radio and likely elsewhere in Europe in those years. Mentions of "John Lewis projects" in that respect were all over the place in late-50s/early 60s European jazz publications. The Swingle Singers IMO do fit into that particular (peculiar?) picture, like Lambert, Hendricks & Ross fit into the picture of straight-ahead jazz that otherwise was purely instrumental.