Big Beat Steve

That's the kind of reminiscences that would belong in the Sittin' In book too - unfortunately it probably is too late because the patrons who visited the clubs described in the book are certainly almost all gone by now (and how to track down those who remain and who are able to share their memories now?). Or you would have to round up previously published recollections but I guess that would have diluted the author's concept (understandably so).

So in addition to eye and ear witnesses we now need nose witnesses too? For a starter, check this Bill Gottlieb photo of a 1947 N.Y. audience: Maybe some cigar collector can identify the one that the guy in the front chomps and tell us about how that would have smelled, and some beer expert can identify the bottle and the smell of that brew?

Take it as pure excitement (and anticipation) about a subject of great interest put into print and as expectations of how you'd like the subject to be treated - at least as far as I am concerned. Happens day in day out with most anything anyone anywhere would eagerly like to get his hands on, including on this forum, isn't it? BTW, the sample pages do give you a preview glimpse of what you are going to put your hands on. And you continue pondering the subject ...

History and research-based publications on a subject of history are one thing, but reworking parts of history in something of today is something else again. Two different pairs of shoes. Both can be done but there is no point in mixing them up randomly. After all the book is supposed to be about shedding some documentary (!) light on the 40s and 50s club scene (or else the Amazon blurb was grossly misleading), not about how name artists of today take that scene for their own reworkings (which in their essence would amount to a sort of vintage or retro culture too, or else the results of their efforts would be an even more different pair of shoes). We will see how the full text of the book actually reads. I will be looking forward to it - one way or another. BTW, being outside the US, I had to look up who Robin Givhan is (now I understand where she comes into the picture ...), but seeing an excerpt of the interview with her on one of the sample pages, I wonder: Where do London, Mary Quant and the 60s come in as important aspects when the fashion of the 40s and 50s is discussed (50s obviously meaning most of all the FIRST half of the 50s as continuing the trends of the 40s), andwhat is this "My guess is", "I think", etc., even about such trivial questions such as the availability of sharp garb to the public: Ms Givhan, did you do an in-depth check of features and ads in period magazines (starting with Ebony etc.) to see where the gents and ladies in the street were able to buy/order their outfits etc.? Or is this chapter not so much about putting the fashion trends of the day in context than about "Renowned Robin Givhan muses on fashion of the 40s and 50s"? Ho hum ... I do cross my fingers the FULL interview will not turn into a missed opportunity but provide something more period-specifically substantial.

In a way - yes. But from what I for one did see on the sample pages on Amazon I was intrigued enough to pre-order it. Despite Jason Moran. (So ... mission accomplished for the publishers - in my case anyway ) And therefore - in response to jlhoots and jcam_44: You may not like the way I worded my doubts (cultural clashes, maybe?) but yes, I was a bit doubtful about the credentials and relevance of Jason Moran as a strictly fact-based researcher and historian, but I WILL be VERY pleased to be proven wrong about this when I read the book. Moran's artistic reinterpretations of that period are interesting for what they are but this is not what such a book is (supposed to be) about. After all it is a book about that period and the clubs and the atmosphere and its musicians and patrons and the entire way of (night)life of that era (at least that is how I understood the sales blurb on Amazon and what I am looking forward to). It is NOT about a reinterpetation of that era by today's artists. It is a bit like if I want to read a biography about the life and music of Fats Waller, for instance, a writeup on the "Ain't Misbehavin'" musical and nothing more will not do. It's an add-on, not more - regardless of how entertaining the musical is (yes I did see it at the time). So I agree with Allen Lowe - from a historian's perspective there would have been others who would have been able to provide more profound insights on this. IMO Jason Moran figures there not least of all because he is a name in today's jazz entertainment world and may draw additional sales (and this is something I am wary about). But apart from the celebrity angle and looking beyond pro historians such as Dan Morgenstern, on that level of profound knowledge on the subject on hand basically any diehard collector and serious amateur researcher of the jazz club life of the 40s and 50s (all of whom of course are johnny-come-latelies due to the time that has passed since the 40s and 50s and are BOUND to be late starters on the subject) might be just as qualified to add something substantial to the subject. No doubt collectors and hobby historians of that caliber ARE out there (if the book had been written 20 years ago I'd say there would have been a handful of them around on the Retro Swing scene, for example. But of course they don't have the "name"). So ... I stand by it: I prefer fact-based contributions of historians and researchers to artistic reinterpretations (regardless of the names attached). After all the book is about the club scene of the 40s and 50s, not about what we today extract from that 40s and 50s atmosphere to rework it (an interesting approach too but if I wanted that I'd buy an updated edition of "Swing - The Retro Renaissance", for example , but that will be a different subject matter, then).

@mjazzg: Neither of the two, just wondering and puzzlement. I was not aware of his research or artistic interpretations. My fault possibly, but if you read my statements carefully - and without prejudice about my intentions on YOUR side - you will have noticed that I asked whether he in fact did have in-depth (!) research(er) or writer credentials on the topic of 40s/50s jazz clubs (so I did take that possibility into account but wanted to find out). So if he has (no, I did not check the links yet), all the better, and in this case I stand corrected. But given previous experience - in reading (of books written with what clearly are either secondary sources or attempts to catch an era but, being too late, being forced to use oral sources who came in at the tail end of that era only and therefore could not provide first-hand testimonials of the KEY years either) or watching (documentaries where current/present-day celebs are called in to comment on previous eras and styles of music - with all too often shallow results) - I as someone very interested in the subject matter reserve the right to ask the question beforehand. I hope I made my point. P.S: @Dan Gould: Thanks for your comments which shed some additional light on Moran's involvement. Something worthwhile may well come of how Moran tackles the subject, but as you say - reenactment or artistic reinterpretation may not necessarily equal first-hand experiences and memories or historical accuracy.

I'd love a book like that but what you say sounds like a reasonable concern. But what I am more concerned about is what johnny-come-lately people/celebs like Jason Moran have to say (with real substance) from an INSIDER's point of view about jazz clubs of the FORTIES and FIFTIES and that era. What's the actual credentials? Is he a historian and/or confirmed collector of the music from that era too? Reminds me a bit of the Ken Burns jazz documentary where Wynton Marsalis was called upon as "THE" expert to make statements on each and every angle of the subject. IIRC this was ONE aspect why that series came under a lot of flak here, so ...? Seems a bit to me like someone wanted to write a book about a specific period (commendable ...) but then realized that that era was too far in the past to come up with reasonable eye and earwitnesses for a real oral history and so stuck to who was left (even Sonny Rollins and Quincy Jones were sort of a bit late to the game for the ENTIRE period covered in the book). A bit like in "oral histories" written too late such as "Bands Booze and Broads" (where a lot of the interviewees were minor big band sidemen from the big band lineups of the 50s when the big band era was a definite thing of the past and the whole scene had changed). Despite these reservations, the photographs, however, may be the clincher - if the intro (as seem on Amazon) is true. It is very welcome if a book on that period does not rely exclusively on Bill Gottlieb's 1947 photographs (which - fantastic as they are - are commonplace to avid fans of jazz from that era as they all are in the online P.D.). So I did take the plunge and preordered.

A very interesting thread. And one that echoes many feelings I have had over the years too. Rabshakeh, from your initial post I take it that you are aware of "Soul Jazz - Jazz In The Black Community 1945-1975" by Bob Porter, published in 2016 (as far as I can see it's a print-on-demand book so doesn't this say something about the usual suspects among jazz book publishers and about how they care to approach THIS niche?). Following a discussion of the book on this forum I snapped it up at the time and did not regret it. Though I must say that overall the book is a bit slim in the actual Soul Jazz part. The initial chapters (including the history of the musical developments that led to Soul Jazz) are very nice IMO (fine with me as Jump Blues is another strain of jazz that IMO is bypassed too much) but the coverage of the actual Soul Jazz artists somehow drifts into a string of names and brief bios along the lines of "and there also was ...". Musical analysis and stringing of the various aspects together seems to be on the short side, contrary, e.g., to the writings ot Ted Gioia and Robert Gordon on West Coast Jazz. Still, a good book for lack of a better one ... I also would welcome a book that gives more coverage to Soul Jazz as well as its R&B/Jump Blues ancestors within the framework of the OVERALL history of jazz, but as it has been hinted at earlier, jazz sub-styles such as Soul Jazz seem to have become suspect just BECAUSE they were popular (above all in the Black community), because this OTOH would highlight the corresponding lack of popular appeal of those styles of jazz from the same period that are given coverage in the "usual" kinds of jazz history books because they are considered THE overriding key steps of jazz development (raising jazz to a "higher" level?? making a "high-art lady" out of jazz? ) . There must be a lot of names that anyone covering the subject just HAS to mention, or else he be excommunicated by the scribe and publishing scene at large . And once those checked, there will be hardly any room left for those pluralistic jazz strains that did exist at various times but are usually given short shrift. Western Swing (as a valid and important part of the entire "Territories" scene of the 30s), Jump Blues/early post-war R&B (as the OTHER major path of development of jazz after 1945 - it wasn't all bebop or "Progressive" only), Soul Jazz (for evident reasons), to name just three. But of course this would mean that those seriously attempting to cover aspects such as the above move quite a bit away from jazz (particularly post-1945 jazz) seen as a strict "art for art's sake" history only and look at how jazz-drenched music was in fact absorbed by the audiences that DID exist. But honestly, from over here the only one I can think of who would be up to the task of doing these aspects of the history of jazz justice is Allen Lowe.

An interesting jazzman. The few recordings he left behind are interesting, to say the least. And here is a somewhat better picture of him than the ones in the article linked above (taken from the public domain William Gottlieb online archives):

If I have a moment tomorrow I might add the translation of the relevant portions of the review of the Stockholm concert of that tour that apeared in OJ the month after. For the moment, suffice it to cite the subheadings of the review: "Miles' horn out of tune" "Tired Lester"

Do you have an actual label and release number for this recording? Of course I've never heard it but this pairing must come from the "Birdland All Stars" tour across Europe in November 1956. I do remember having read about that tour in period jazz magazines not long ago, and it seems Prez had his share of "off days". Of course today anybody's MMV but on checking I found the below excerpt of what the reviewer of ORKESTER JOURNALEN (Sweden) had to say about the two shows of the opening concert of that tour on 2 November at Salle Pleyel, Paris: "And then came Miles Davis - a focused, concentrated Miles with perfect control of his horn who played some of the most outstanding music he has so far come up with. His "Yesterdays" from the second concert was an unforgettable moment: the soft tone and the dizzyingly beautiful phrasing produced a shining texture of mature art. More outstanding jazz was presented in "Night in Tunisia" where he at both concerts filled the break with tightly packed 16th notes just to slip - after a moment's pause - into long, sweeping phrases in his nonchalant, unmistakable manner. Other highlights included the final cadences at half tempo in "Walkin'"" - lively blue bars indeed! But "Yesterdays" remained the biggest musical event of the evening ... Lester Young turned out to be somewhat of an anticlimax after the fascinating and engaging trumpet artistry of Miles Davis. Besides, Prez was tired from his touring in France and his light, swinging solos did not produce much of the fresh, musical flow of ideas that was characteristic of the improvisations of Davis. A beautiful "Polka Dots and Moonbeams" and a swinging" Lester Leaps In" were the pleasant moments of both concerts' Lester. When he joined Miles to finish the first concert with "Lady Be Good" the contrasts between both musicians became all the more evident. Lester certainly isn't finished as a creative artist, but concert stages and long, wearying tours no longer are the ideal forum for him. His routine and balanced temper for the time being are sufficient for him to assert his president status - and that Miles Davis seems to have outgrown his period of sloppy blowing is something we can be grateful for."

Who knows ...? https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rolling-Stones-Geriatric-Tour-Caricature/dp/B072JFJ9PK

Actually I found mine first as a CD reissue (which had about 80% of the 2 LPs' contents) in the early 90s and was glad to get it that way at all, and about a year later, during a visit to London I found a copy of the 2-LP set at Ray's and of course picked it up (though it was not all that cheap). Happily I managed to resell the CD at once to another local collector. I've seen the occasional other copies of that one in secondhand record shop bins since.

That might well be. My copy of Vol. 1 bought at the time ((c) Arista) is a German pressing by EMI Electrola. My copy of Vol. 2 (also bought new - a couple of years after Vol. 1) is a US Arista ("subsidiary of Columbia") pressing, As our local #1 record shop at the time had a very good jazz section and personnel that was very much in the know the US pressings did not make any difference price- or availability-wise. (Happy times ...) My spare copy of Vol. 1 is a US pressing too. I don't know how well they sold overall by reissue standards back then but I do know that the Savoy twofers from those times were well distributed here and were all over the place for quite some time The only one (among those of interest to me) I had real trouble locating was "Black California Vol. 2".

There is this, of course: https://www.amazon.com/Prestige-Label-Discography-Discographies-Discographic/dp/0313220190 And this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jazz-Critique-Book-The-Prestige-Book-Discography-Of-All-Series-1996-Rare-/192922427341

My thoughts too when I read the title.

No doubt (and great music indeed) and no reproach meant, but the Brothers and Other Mothers twofer vinyls have been around for ages and therefore have been in circulation fairly widely. Actually, they are among the chosen few "key" vinyls where I bought a "spare" copy when I came across a pristine set at a giveaway price.

Sounds treachereously like the Savoy material reissued on the "Brothers and Other Mothers" twofers. (Reissue) Credit to whom credit is due ...

Thanks. I'll keep my fingers crossed, then.

A quick question to those from Florida: I have my eyes halfway set on an item on US eBay that is located in Boca Raton, Florida. No music item, but not bulky at all. Will fit in a small and relatively lightweight parcel. According to you who live in the State and to your experience, what is the current USPS situation shipping-wise? What is the probable risk of an item being stuck forever in some distribution center there and not actually leaving the area (let alone the US) for ages? Thanks a lot in advance!

I doubt it. Parent women (some men too, I guess) who are CONVINCED that their offspring can do no wrong at all just because he/she just happens to be THEIR offspring is a not so rare phenomenon over here (and I doubt this is unknown in the US). Made worse by the same kind of parent women who insist on driving SUVs as "parent taxis" through our suburban streets (that often are not really suitable for that kind of show-off tanks) although they are not even capable of really handling them (i.e. they don't know shit about where their monster starts and ends ).

There were three Duke Ellington "The Brunswick Years" LPs on the (Swedish) Jazz Information labal (CAH 3001 to 3003) - reissued in 1989.

I agree - thinking about it, that aspect of "cross-pollination" ought to have been given more coverage.

Judging by the sequence of the above links, Matthew Shipp sure worked himself into a temper.

At any rate, Cannonball Adderley is off the usual tracks of what Cary Ginell would have been expected to cover. It certainly is a surprise to see his name there (to me, anyway). His work for the "Milton Brown and the Founding of Western Swing" book was exceedingly detailed, and as the author of The Decca Hillbilly Discography 1934-1945 and co-author of the Discography of Western Swing and Hot String Bands, 1928-1942, he left no stone unturned either. Not to mention his numerous liner notes for LP and CD reissues of Western Swing. Not that I would want to pin him down in the Western Swing corner only, but Cannonball Adderley is sort of "far" removed from that field, right? So maybe this explains that? P.S. Forgot that he also brought the words and recollections of Terry Gibbs for his autobiography into book form (but I guess Terry Gibbs was an easy assignment to handle, judging by the contents of that hilarious and light-hearted work), and judging by his personal bio on the Origin Jazz label website Ginell has been an all-out hillbilly and roots music man for a long time and has only relatively recently moved away into modern jazz fields. Makes you wonder ...