Big Beat Steve

You may have seen that this book has already been discussed here: That thread (particularly the final page of the thread) may also explain my above comments on the book to some extent.

Corrected in my copy of the book now.

Still perusing this one for the umpteenth time ... (alternating with smaller doses of listening to and reading Allen Lowe's "Turn Me Loose White Man") ... ... and still marveling at the photographs and the ad graphics but still a bit underwhelmed by some of the interviews ... But today a parcel arrived with a bunch of secondhand jazz books bought (at prices too good to pass up) from duplicates sold off by a national jazz archive. So which one to choose next? So there will be new reading matter in case another longish lockdown should be looming. (The yellow abstract cover at the bottom left belongs to the German edition of Sidney Finkelstein's "Jazz - A People's Music")

Crossing my fingers for a speedy and complete recovery, Dmitry! Let us know about how that record flipping exercise helps with the recovery. Someone else somewhere might need it too.

See "Before Motown", page 147. Somewhat cropped, though. However, they identify the bassist as Ernie Farrow there.

Ah, that would have been an idea ... Though in vain, given what happened through the years. But isn't this ONE reason why some fields were left wide open?

Yes the decision is an easy but strictly personal one to make. Some prefer accessible, at least acceptably presented and packaged product to fill a gap and feel they are getting value added, some drool about first or Japan pressings and feel this is the only way to get value added, some just want the bits of digital downloads because they don't see any value added in tangible product, etc. And someone apparently saw fit to spend those $200+ asked on eBay for that lo-fi issue on Collectable just because it offers some "new" hard bop to listen to. YMMV. And tastes differ. And whoever tries to pass judgment on this is just stating a personal, colored opinion (that obviously will be different from other persons' opinions, but so what?) but this "judgment" has NO lasting and permanent relevance or authority beyond the person who made that statement. See, the other day I wanted a copy of "Another Opus" by Lem Winchester, but not badly enough to shell out for the inflated totals caused a.o. by outrageous overseas shipping costs on Discogs (and right now I don't really fancy overseas shipping if I can avoid it). (FWIW OJC reissue CDs are conspicuous by their absence on Discogs). I will stay on the lookout for a decently priced vinyl but for the time being I am well served by the Avid Jazz reissue that get me this plus three (!) of his other LPs for less than 10 EUR including shipping. So the European P.D. labels do offer added value (e.g. in this case vs the spotty availability of OJCs) because they go where US labels just fear to tread or don't bother to market because there is not enough $$$ in it for them. So as for whining about "Oh those US labels can't reissue this or that or everything else because the European PD labels have the market sewn up for that kind of product and we can't cope" - well... This whining very, very often is pointless, because if they had really wanted to in the first place they could have reissued it in many ways to keep the market covered. So live with the fact that this global world is a door that swings both ways (in fact, many ways). Free market, baby, free market.

Dont be evasive. Of course there are. If the reissues violate the (non-retroactive) cutoff date applicable at the time the law was passed that increased the 50-year protection period well beyond those 50 years. I.e. some point in 1962 (convenient for McCartney, Cliff Richard and other zillion sellers with necessary clout) as the law was passed in 2012. But if they don't then THEY are legal (because the extended protection period does not apply retroactively beyond what had already fallen into the public domain after 50 years had elapsed in 2012). Not complicated. Bootlegs may also exist if first-time releases of older recordings (or generally unauthorized material) are made where the music has not been cleared correctly. But mud slinging with nothing to back up the accusations of non-clearance (e.g in the case of those radio archive releases of older broadcasts or radio studio recordings) does not make a release a bootleg. Particularly not as long as some seem to prefer to look the other way (or not) depending on where the release originates. That's double standards. P.S. And read and understand correctly. I said "THEY" (the labels tha tmake use of the European P.D: law) are no bootlegs - anywhere in Europe. Not "there". Big difference. Easy to understand.

See, in that case it's the same with Fresh Sound, Blue Moon, Real Gone Jazz, Lone Hill or whatever other label in that league and in fact any P.D. label that takes advantage of European P.D. laws. So why get wound up about THEM over and over again? Particularly since they are NO bootlegs in all of Europe and are therefore all straight (questionable US importers' practices are the problem of the importers and their domestic clients). So common, so obvious. Or is this a personal pet peeve?

So how come no one (including the usual suspects) saw fit to name this as what it is from Day 1? A bootleg? If such concerns about bootleg (re)issues are such a moral quandary with so many (as seen in other discussions where the "is this legit" question seems to be a standard post). After all such restraints do not seem to exist one second when it comes to European P.D. labels - even where they ABSOLUTELY comply with EUROPEAN P.D. laws (and where their ONLY fault from the angle of the major member base of this forum is that there are greedy Stateside importers and resellers who sell them ANYWAY in a country where strictly speaking this may be illegal), and even where there do not seem to be too many hesitations about raising unproven accusations of alleged illegality against first-time live recordings from European venues? The overall picture of what is pointed out and what is tacitly hushed over still reeks of double standards to me. If you are so concerned about one and say so, be concerned about them all and say so. Not complicated either.

Amazing ... Mention the "Legit" question and the discussion ebbs off in no time at all ... Considering this seems to have been a first-time release on this 1997 CD this must have violated ANY existing US copyright rules (because there cannot have been any period that had elapsed since the "first" release) unless the recordings had been cleared with the estates of Wynton Kelly and Cecil Payne (or whoever else may have had rights to recordings by these artists during this period). Is there any proof that the royalties to these estates have been paid? Does this appear likely, considering the shady, cheapo presentation of the CD and the lack of data and details on it? Are we that far away from the "bootleg" word? If such a release had been put out by any European P.D. label the outcries about the (alleged) "Andorran thieves" would have been all over the place by now. So is it good practice to hush over "U.S. thieves", then? Double standards at work? And don't nobody claim that at least in this case something new has been released and not just preexisting releases reissued. Just remember how the accusations of "shady" practices were worded here even in cases of European releases of concert recordings originally done for European radio stations, claiming that these recordings would not have been cleared at the time for anything but the original broadcasts - without providing substantiated proof that the radio stations did not in fact have rights to release or approve for release well beyond those broadcasts. So ... is it so that Collectables "can do no wrong"? Doubts are permitted.

Jason Moran did the jazz collector world a huge service by making this publicly available on Youtube. Hats off and thanks. Others at other times would have sat on discoveries like this like the proverbial setting hen until they had milked every drop of information for commercial-minded publications.

I think it has already been mentioned there. After all its reissues have been around in about a quadrillion different covers and packagings. And in your personnel listing, let's not forget bassist Kenny O'Brien.

I've tired a long, long time ago of Ferry Cross The Mersey and You'll Never Walk alone but I did like his somewhat more Merseybeat-ish tunes at the time I was exploring 60s Beat music more thoroughly. Music-wise, I always found his aforementioned two most memorable hits to be rather atypical for MerseyBEAT (regardless of the huge local anthems outside Merseybeat they became) and these songs would probably have labeled him as a family or "variety show act" as British biographers have often described the efforts of many 60s Beat groups at the tail end of the Beat era. RIP

I guess it all depends on whether one one ALSO appreciates him as a white exponent of the first generation of the honking sax clique and goes for this kind of extrovert sax playing (I deliberately won't use the term "exhibitionistic" that has been tagged on him - IMO that's a very dated term; considering what has come since he should sound far less "exhibitionistic" by now. For instance, what was the name of that baritone sax-wielding companion of that sax-playing Grace Kelly again who was discussed here some time ago? Compared to him, for example, Charlie Ventura sounds fairly melodic. )

This kind of "first time" Youtube things always reminds me of a clip uploaded there many mons ago by some father who filmed how his teenie girl reacted to a real vinyl LP. Holding it in her hands, turning it in all directions, puzzled look on her face - what, music can come out of THAT??? That one must have been real but somehow it may have set the tone for those who turned these reactions into "product". Unfortunately I've never found it again on Youtube.

Interesting ... I guess I can do without part 1 (when taken in too large doses, that Krupa format is rather formulaic IMO and I must admit I have never been the biggest fan of Krupa clobbering on the bass drum) but side 2 should be rather more interesting (e.g. to keep my reissues of Ventura's 1956 Baton and Tops LPs company which probably are almost as obscure as the King date).

Just cliché-laden ...

So how "LEGIT" is the Collectables label with this Kelly-/Payne release at all, then?

Same here. Too pricey, considering that it is fairly slim too. Thought it would be right up my alley.

Not wanting to get deeper into the Young Lions or Neo-Bop aspect (due to insufficient personal exposure) but as for these "musical developments", that's something I am rather wary of. Are these "deveopments" a one-way street one HAS to walk, or aren't they rather ONE BRANCH of various different developments that you can decide to follow or not (or choose which of these you want to follow)? Personally I still feel (just like with earlier "developments") that this is not a linear, one-way thing but a matter of branching out in an increasing number of different directions that you can explore or not, take up or discard (ignore). As with all other musics, it is a matter of what you like and not a matter of what you MUST go along with (in the - very relative - name of "progress"? - to the exclusion of what developments had their origins in earlier periods?). Some developments are more radical than others but is this to say that only the most radical ones are the legitimate ones and everything else automatically is "moldy fig-ish"? IMO there is a wealth of nuances in between that may be much more satisfactory to many (based - again - on personal musical preferences which is all that this all about anyway).

Can only join in what everyone said. May the new year be much better (before too long, hopefully) and may your favorite music tide everyone over the "dire straits". And above all: Stay healthy and out of the way of the inconsiderate ones out there!

Will be happy to oblige ... I am fairly well-stocked with these, including duets and trios. But on checking now I somehow am not sure which duets exactly you are referring to. Those I can locate in the discographies are dated September/October (Hotel Sherman) but not November. What did I miss or overlook?

Well, if you insist ... So I rechecked: The Al Cohn/Zoot Sims album "You'n'Me" was recorded just before I was born. The Curtis Fuller album "Images" was recorded just after I was born. Some of the tunes for the Johnny Griffin "The Big Soul Band" album were recorded the day before i was born. Lem Winchester's "Another Opus" was recorded on the day I was born. And - sorry to say because this is NOT quite my cup of tea jazz-wise - the MJQ album "With Symphony Orchestra" was recorded on the day I was born and on the day before. And to make matters "worse", it actually was recorded in my hometown. I have the You'n'Me LP but think I now will have to get the Lem Winchester album too.

"Jazz Milestones" by Ken Vail is anyone's friend here. Though of course it only presents a selection of "milestone" dates, artists and recordings. For November, 1939, it lists sessions by Mildred Bailey on 30 Nov., Eddie Condon's Chicagoans on 30 Nov., Duke Ellington duets with Jimmy Blanton on 22 Nov. (!!), Benny Goodman Sextet on 22 and 27 Nov., Harry James on 30 Nov., Andy Kirk on 15 Nov., Gene Krupa on 2 Nov., Muggsy Spanier's Ragtime Band on 10 and 22 Nov., FAts Waller on 3 Nov. and Lee Wiley on 13 and 15 Nov. And no doubt there must have been more going on in the studios that month. June 1939 had Louis Armstrong's orchestra on 15 June, Mildred Bailey on 14 and 27 June, Sidney Bechet Quintet on 8 June, Ella Fitzgerald on 28 June, J.C. Hhigginbotham Quintet on 8 June, Johnny Hodges' spinoff of the Ellington band on 2 June, Pete Johnson & Joe Turner on 30 June, Wingy Manone on 19 June, frankie Newton on 8 June, Fats Waller on 13 and 28 June, and Cootie WIlliams & His Rug Cutters on 22 June. And so on ...