Guy Berger Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 "Duke Ellington's Sound of Love." Beautiful. word! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 anybody mention Cumbia Jazz Fusion? I remember being amazed by it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldB3 Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 I think that Changes One is the last, indisputably classic "Mingus album". Not even Changes Two, fine as it is, quite measures up. Truthfully, I think that you could take all of One, add the first side of Two, and have a really nice stand-alone suite. If the session would have been done in the CD age, maybe that's what they'd have done. Mingus, like Miles, did not peak before the 70s, so to look at his output through the "popular" lens of Classic = 1950s & 1960s is going to result in some unnecessary oversights. Changes 1 & 2 are both excellent. That was the first time I heard Don Pullen and I was amazed that the piano could be played that way. I was talking about Mingus last week and saying how its a shame I don't listen to his Impulse and beyond recordings anymore because they are brilliant. I find my self going for Ah Hum, Mingus Dynasty, The Charles Mingus Quintet & Max Roach, East Coasting and Cafe Bohemia period right now. For later period Mingus I have to be in the mood for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 I saw the late Mingus band, through the 1970s, on a number of occasions - with the exception of Neloms and maybe Pullen I just did not find the band inspiring - all great players, but something was missing at this stage. Walrath was inconsistent, Ricky Ford boring, George Adams a little tiresome, Pullen fine but in the wrong group, Neloms great when he had the chance. So I have to admit I did not pay a lot of attention to the recordings. Will have to go back and hear Changes 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 Mingus, like Miles, did not peak before the 70s, so to look at his output through the "popular" lens of Classic = 1950s & 1960s is going to result in some unnecessary oversights. That is an interesting view. I agree that both Miles and Mingus were still making strong music in the early 70s, but I would still say that they both peaked artistically in the 50s and 60s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 When you say "peaked", to me that implies that it's all downhill after that, even if it's from "great" to "pretty good". I think that Miles & Mingus both continued to make great music into the '70s, although for both there were struggles to get there, unlike before. For Miles it was a matter of inventing/developing new templates, for Mingus it was more personal/psychological/medical. Plus, these were now "elder statesmen instead of the Hot Cats Of The Day. Both responded quite strongly, each in their own way. I don't know that Mingus could/would have been able to write material like that on Changes One in the 50s or 60s. And I know that Miles would not have been able to make Agartha in those decades. Although it's a personal interpretation of the word, I don't like to say that one has already "peaked" just because one begins to experience difficulties. Difficulties are often enough precursors to growth, and when one has already established a "public profile" it becomes more difficult to shelter those difficult periods from the public eye. For me, a "peak" ends when an irreversible decline begins. Prior to that, I think it would be fair to note that neither Miles nor Mingus had sustained peaks in their musics as they once had. But these were still lions capable of producing some ferocious roars, roars that commanded attention, respect, and if you were so inclined, awe, and often enough for it to not be an anamoly. If that means that they had already "peaked" so be it. But that's a concept around which I can't get my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 (edited) I think Mingus still had it but that his bands were less than what they had been - which is not to say that he did not have great musicians, only that they were not as good, IMHO, at playing his music as some of the other groups had been. In terms of interpretation, he did better with an earlier generation that was closer to his own. Edited November 1, 2009 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 The generational thing is (was? now that everything's getting all standardized) presented a challenge to the guys who decided to keep hiring younger players rather than stick w/their own (or those were willing to "play the style"). Horace Silver insisted on guys who would play his style. Blakey began the decade willing to be a little more open (I've been checking out those Prestige sides again over the last few weeks & am very delighted again) before turning back. Mingus basically wanted guys who would play his heads right and then get off into their own thing when solo time came. From what I've heard, the Adams/Pullen/Bluiett band was a bit of a mess, not being overly concerned with even the heads, but when Walrath came aboard, things tightened up overall, and the band hit a stride of its own (which was, of necessity, a different stride than the Mingus bands of an earlier generation). The Ford/Neloms and never really got officially documented on its own, but on the Danny Richmond side that had a quintet version of "Cumbia & Jazz Fusion", they sound like they were getting their own identity together. What I like about those later bands (what is available of them) is how they came to speak the Mingus language with their own dialect. Ther was no way that George Adams in 1974 could have - or should have - sounded like Eric Dolphy (or even Clifford Jordan) in 1964. It was a different time in every way. But compare his rather undisciplined playing on Moves & the Carnegie Hall jam session to the sensitive & disciplined playing he turns in on Changes & I think you gotta say that the overriding Mingus ethos had finally penetrated his, at least for a little while. If you're going to hire younger generations and not explicitly require that they "play your style", but instead allow them to find their own voices within it, that's about as good as you can hope for, and really, what more would you hope for? Especially when even Dannie Richmond had been to town and back again! The situation also gets complicated, I think, by Mingus' illnesses throughout the 70s. If the Preistly bio is to be believed, he only had a year or two out of the decade where he was both mentally and physically firing on all cylinders like in the old days. Perhaps not coincidentally, those were the years when the Adams/Pullen/Walrath band really hit its stride. That band definitely requires "different ears" to hear it relative to the great 50s/60s bands (just as it takes "different ears" to hear 40s & early 50s Mingus relative to what came after), but I do think it established an identity, a strong and valid identity, all its own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 (edited) the Neloms band was one I saw a lot, because I became friends with Bob - some good stuff, though Bob said that Ford was becoming more and more difficult as he got better known (they finally kicked him out when Richmond continued the band after Mingus' death, when he began missing planes, etc) , and Walrath could play but always seemed inconsistent - but they were really hitting a peak of popularity, at the very least, playing to stadiums in Europe, making real money, when Mingus got sick. But who knows, if Mingus had maintained his health and just been allowed to compose, there was probably plenty still happening. Edited November 1, 2009 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 Perhaps not coincidentally, those were the years when the Adams/Pullen/Walrath band really hit its stride. That band definitely requires "different ears" to hear it relative to the great 50s/60s bands (just as it takes "different ears" to hear 40s & early 50s Mingus relative to what came after), but I do think it established an identity, a strong and valid identity, all its own. Totally agree. Adams, Pullen, and Walrath all became great during/through their association with Mingus, just as Dolphy, Jordan, Handy, and others had in the decades before (I remember being stunned by Walrath when I first heard Changes 1 and 2). Of course they sound different because 1. They are all uniquely indvidual, not copycats of ear;ier stylists. 2. It was a different era. Walrath, to me, remains criminally underrated in every aspect (player, writer, arranger, bandleader). That band holds it's own with any Mingus group. May not be the absolute best, but it isn't embarrased by any other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Friedman Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 It's very hard to limit myself to 5, but here goes: Mingus Ah Um Blues & Roots Oh Yeah Mingus - Candid Tijuana Moods OK, I will cheat. Some others I also would not want to be without. East Coasting Mingus Dynasty Mingus Plays Mingus Jazz Portraits At Antibes The Clown Interesting that I don't believe THE CLOWN was even mentioned once in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 (edited) I saw the Walrath/Adams band a number of times - once, even in Springfield Illinois! Walrath was always interesting but sometimes Adams bugged me 'cause he seemed to throw the "hot switch" alt will and it all wound up sounding the same. edit for punctuation. Edited November 2, 2009 by Chuck Nessa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A.W. Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 I saw the Walrath/Adams band a number of times - once, even in Springfield Illinois! Walrath was always interesting but sometimes Adams bugged me 'cause he seemed to throw the "hot switch" all will and it all wound up sounding the same. edit for punctuation. Saw Walrath/Adams with Mingus in the Netherlands in the very hot European summer of 1976, and as far as I remember Adams was pretty restrained at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 I do always think of Adams, his eyes rolled upwards, hitting the high ones with Mingus - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 Listen to his solo on "Duke Ellington's Sound Of Love" on Changes One. Great ballad playing, period. Adams did have that switch, and he did hit it often, but he also had more. Probably a "sign of the times" that he flipped it as often as he did (was he the Illinois Jacquet of his time, and were the 70s the last time that jazz would have a popular enough base to create an Illinois Jacquet, and if so, does that mean that James Carter should move on, or does the absence of both Adams and the real Illinois Jacquet now make him make more sense than ever?), but when he didn't (or when he did with discretion), he was really something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 a tenor player speaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 anybody mention Cumbia Jazz Fusion? I remember being amazed by it. Oh yes! I'm sure it was mentioned in the underrated Mingus albums thread... amazing stuff! The "Todo Modo" part is fun as well - and that film (with a different soundtrack or mostly a different soundtrack) is great as well, classic 70s euro political thriller... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kh1958 Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 (edited) I was able to narrow my list down to a Top 30 list... Pithecanthropus Erectus The Clown East Coasting Tijuana Moods A Modern Jazz Symposium of Poetry and Music Blues and Roots Wonderland Mingus Ah Um Mingus Dynasty Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus Mingus At Antibes Pre-Bird Oh Yeah Tonight at Noon Black Saint Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Plays Piano Town Hall Concert (1964) Cornell The Great Concert of Charles Mingus At Monterey Right Now Music Written for Monterey Reincarnation of a Lovebird Let My Children Hear Music Mingus Moves Changes One Changes Two Cumbia and Jazz Fusion Edited November 4, 2009 by kh1958 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom in RI Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 I wouldn't try to convince anyone that the Carnegie Hall jam (Mingus at Carnegie Hall on Atlantic) mentioned by Jim Sangrey a few posts back belongs in the top 5 Mingus sessions, but it is the Mingus disc I have listened to the most through the years. I just can't help reaching for this to hear George Adams and Roland Kirk together. After that its probably the Candids I have reached for next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 just to put in a word for the stuff he did with John LaPorta in the 1950s - and for which LaPorta should get great credit for helping to organize (I always felt Mingus had the need to downplay his associations with white progressive musicians of the 1950s like LaPorta, Teo Macero, Paul Bley). Listen to Elegy For Rudy Williams - gorgeous stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 I was able to narrow my list down to a Top 27 list... Pithecanthropus Erectus The Clown East Coasting Tijuana Moods A Modern Jazz Symposium of Poetry and Music Blues and Roots Wonderland Mingus Ah Um Mingus Dynasty Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus Mingus Oh Yeah Tonight at Noon Black Saint Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Plays Piano Town Hall Concert (1964) Cornell The Great Concert of Charles Mingus At Monterey Music Written for Monterey Reincarnation of a Lovebird Let My Children Hear Music Mingus Moves Changes One Changes Two Cumbia and Jazz Fusion And amazingly, you're still missing some really good stuff from early in his career, and some pretty good large ensemble titles from late in his career with the augmented Ricky Ford/Bob Neloms band. just to put in a word for the stuff he did with John LaPorta in the 1950s - and for which LaPorta should get great credit for helping to organize (I always felt Mingus had the need to downplay his associations with white progressive musicians of the 1950s like LaPorta, Teo Macero, Paul Bley). Listen to Elegy For Rudy Williams - gorgeous stuff. I second that emotion :tup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Third. I really, really like the 50s "third-stream" Mingus (I know, that's not what it is, but whatever). Teo, LaPorta, Clem DeRosa... all fantastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kh1958 Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 I was able to narrow my list down to a Top 27 list... Pithecanthropus Erectus The Clown East Coasting Tijuana Moods A Modern Jazz Symposium of Poetry and Music Blues and Roots Wonderland Mingus Ah Um Mingus Dynasty Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus Mingus Oh Yeah Tonight at Noon Black Saint Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Plays Piano Town Hall Concert (1964) Cornell The Great Concert of Charles Mingus At Monterey Music Written for Monterey Reincarnation of a Lovebird Let My Children Hear Music Mingus Moves Changes One Changes Two Cumbia and Jazz Fusion And amazingly, you're still missing some really good stuff from early in his career, and some pretty good large ensemble titles from late in his career with the augmented Ricky Ford/Bob Neloms band. just to put in a word for the stuff he did with John LaPorta in the 1950s - and for which LaPorta should get great credit for helping to organize (I always felt Mingus had the need to downplay his associations with white progressive musicians of the 1950s like LaPorta, Teo Macero, Paul Bley). Listen to Elegy For Rudy Williams - gorgeous stuff. I second that emotion :tup I like all that material as well, of course. Mingus at Carnegie Hall also. And maybe I shouldn't have omitted Pre-Bird. And the Uptown collection of early Mingus is fascinating as well. (I've been a Mingus fanatic since 1974.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 I spin Pre-Bird quite a bit as far as the Ming goes. The Uptown collection is indeed fascinating. Seems like the band w/ Bobby Jones represented on the America LPs doesn't get much love. I like that group a lot also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Clugston Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 The thing is, though, that Mingus went into those sessions knowing that he would record more than he would use. The original albums reflected his conception of how they should sound. The expanded "Mingus Ah Um," which I also have, simply doesn't have the same pacing as the original. I'm glad the full length performances are out there, but I feel they should supplement Mingus's original albums rather than replace them, IMHO. I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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