q. about Miles, re- blackhawk period

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

you know miles live at the blackhawk with hank? was this miles's last true bop band, before he went completely nutz. it seems like this was like the last of it, and after this band he kept getting more are more outside. man why does miles rag on hank so much. hank was his last chance at bebop greatness. discuss

[JETman]

you know miles live at the blackhawk with hank? was this miles's last true bop band, before he went completely nutz. it seems like this was like the last of it, and after this band he kept getting more are more outside. man why does miles rag on hank so much. hank was his last chance at bebop greatness. discuss

Last chance at bebop greatness? You have heard of Miles with Bird, haven't you?

[Gheorghe]

I´d say I´m really a be bop fan, but not only.... . But thinking of be bop, that´s what Miles did in the 40´s. I´d say the last vintage bop sessions of Miles are those Birdland live recordings from 1951 with J.J. Johnson, Rollins or Jaws on ts, stuff like that.

But see, Miles never stood still or looked back. To dig Miles means to dig the whole developement of jazz.

Miles, after his first great quintet with Trane, with Philly J.J. etc. had started modal jazz around 1958. He had to look for musicians that can inspire him, not to make him look back.

The blackhawk recordings are nice to listen, and Hank Mobley is one of my favourite players, I love everything he did, but not for Miles! It was not a happy period for Miles before 1963. You can almost feel how he is bored, musically uninspired.

How can you say Miles went nuts after that? You miss a lot of good, exiting stuff. Anyway, if "nuts" means to you "new thing", "free jazz", "avantgarde" ....anyway....that´s something Miles never did.

With George Coleman and later Wayne Shorter, with Herbie, Ron, and above all Tony Williams, Miles got some of the greatest musicians ever....

[John L]

People tend to talk a lot more about why Miles fired Hank than why he hired him. Miles didn't hire people that he didn't like. As for the disparaging comments that Miles made in his Autobiography, I chalk that up to Miles at the time getting bored in general with bop and "playing changes," which is what Mobley did so well.

[Guy Berger]

People tend to talk a lot more about why Miles fired Hank than why he hired him. Miles didn't hire people that he didn't like. As for the disparaging comments that Miles made in his Autobiography, I chalk that up to Miles at the time getting bored in general with bop and "playing changes," which is what Mobley did so well.

It may have been that Miles was enthusiastic about Hank's playing initially (after all, the group was recorded officially multiple times in the spring of 1961 - something that didn't happen to any of the other post-Trane, pre-Coleman saxophonists in Miles's groups), but grew disappointed over time. Miles was gigging with this group (+ JJ Johnson) in 1962 but there are no recordings.

Did Hank have an intensification of substance abuse problems during this period? He didn't record under ANYBODY's name in 1962. And that may also explain Miles's dissatisfaction.

[Quasimado]

Last chance at bebop greatness? You have heard of Miles with Bird, haven't you?

There are hints of something (Milestones), but on the whole Mile's playing with Bird was pretty raw - nowhere near Fats or Diz. In fact judging from his early playing, as a horn player it's remarkable he became as great as the critics said he did.

Q

[Rooster_Ties]

I generally love Hank's playing, no matter the year -- but I think Miles really needed particular kinds of foils in the front-line.

I'm reminded of the contrast between Miles' playing in Stockholm in March of 1960, with Trane, vs. with Sonny Stitt in October of that same year (also in Stockholm). Trane was white hot, and Miles reacted on the bandstand in a particular way. Sonny Stitt bought less energy, and Miles had to rise to the occasion -- and in many ways, I prefer Miles' playing with Stitt (quite a lot, actually - Miles was GREAT with Stitt).

It's been years since I've heard the Blackhawk recordings - but over the years, my reaction has always been that they lacked energy (they've always left me feeling "Kind of Bored"). I don't think you can pin that all on Hank, though I do think he's a factor. But if Miles had risen to the occasion, and played to balance Mobley's energy, I don't think there'd be the generally mixed opinions out there about the Blackhawk material.

On a related topic, the conventional wisdom is that Sam Rivers wasn't a good fit with the band in '64 (or at least not with Miles), which I believe to be true -- but what might have been the problem more than Sam's (or Hank's) playing, was Miles' particular reaction to them on the bandstand.

I do wonder what might have come from a (theoretical) Miles-lead studio session with Sam in the band, circa late 1964. While E.S.P. was a huge breath of fresh air, as compared to it's predecessors, it also isn't anywhere the level of interplay that Miles Smiles and Sorcerer/Neftiti brought. But I suspect a Miles studio album with Sam might actually have been more interesting than E.S.P. (if, perhaps, also more of a mixed bag).

All that is to ask what a Miles studio album with HANK might have sounded like?

Edited January 18, 2012 by Rooster_Ties

[Dan Gould]

All that is to ask what a Miles studio album with HANK might have sounded like?

That's what a Miles studio date with HANK sounds like.

Seems to me that if Miles was just a little less dismissive in his autobiography, we'd all be on the same page - Hank and Miles together just weren't that good, but Hank could still play.

Having said that, I'm enough of a fan that I'd never want to be without the complete Blackhawk recordings.

[Guy Berger]

Having said that, I'm enough of a fan that I'd never want to be without the complete Blackhawk recordings.

I don't see how anyone - even a diehard fan of the 1965-75 music like myself - could want to be without the Blackhawk recordings. They're great, close to the platonic ideal for middle-of-the-road (not too radical, not too populist) modern jazz playing in 1961.

[Pete C]

Mobley was one of a number of saxophonists in the interim period between Trane's departure and the George Coleman edition with the new rhythm section. And Mobley wasn't with the band that long, it's just that the amount of recorded material gives that impression. IMO, Mobley is coincidental to the overall sound; I think the rhythm section is the key to the change in tenor (no pun intended).

For me the highlight of the Blackhawk sessions is the amazingly high quality of the Wynton Kelly Trio, as they would shortly become.

Miles didn't like Hank, Tony didn't like George, maybe Miles wasn't happy with Sam (but Sam also said he felt constrained), but Everybody Loves Wayne.

As far as Sam and Miles, I think I said this on another thread, it's funny to think that Sam was too "out" when you listen to what Wayne was doing at The Plugged Nickel.

Last chance at bebop greatness? You have heard of Miles with Bird, haven't you?

There are hints of something (Milestones), but on the whole Mile's playing with Bird was pretty raw - nowhere near Fats or Diz. In fact judging from his early playing, as a horn player it's remarkable he became as great as the critics said he did.

Q

The Milestones (orig.) session was Miles' first date as a leader (hence Bird on tenor), and it gives a hint of his mature sound (as does some of his playing on the Royal Roost sessions toward the end of his tenure), but don't forget that Miles was very young when he played with Bird, and MUCH less experienced than either Fats or Diz. Still, the lyricism you hear on his Milestones/Half Nelson date and the Royal Roost appearance with Dameron (very different from the Paris date) shows the special lyricism that he'd further develop.

There's plenty of "bebop greatness" on some of Miles' 1953-56 Prestige and Blue Note recordings, IMO.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Pete C

[Guy Berger]

Mobley was one of a number of saxophonists in the interim period between Trane's departure and the George Coleman edition with the new rhythm section. And Mobley wasn't with the band that long, it's just that the amount of recorded material gives that impression.

Wasn't Hank with Miles for about 2 years, going by Losin's website?

[Pete C]

Mobley was one of a number of saxophonists in the interim period between Trane's departure and the George Coleman edition with the new rhythm section. And Mobley wasn't with the band that long, it's just that the amount of recorded material gives that impression.

Wasn't Hank with Miles for about 2 years, going by Losin's website?

As far as recordings, I see Someday My Prince was recorded in March of 1961, and his last appearance with Miles on record is the Carnegie Hall date in May of that year. And I don't think his tenure with Miles was that much longer than that window. Where do you see otherwise?

Here's the relevant section from Miles' autobiography:

http://hankmobley.blogspot.com/2004/10/miles-davis-autobiography-mentions-of.html

Hank was replaced by Rocky Boyd (not Rocky Body).

[Guy Berger]

From Pete Losin's website:

"Hank Mobley joined the Davis Quintet in late 1960 and immediately hit the road: Cloister Club, Chicago (December 26-January 8); Bradford Hotel Storyville Room, Boston (January 23-28); a live jazz program for Chicago's WMBI-FM (February 6); Kleinhans Music Hall, Buffalo (February 25); Village Vanguard, New York (February 28-March 12); Shrine Auditorium, Los Angeles (March 31); Blackhawk Supper Club, San Francisco (April 4-30)." link

And

"After the flurry of Columbia studio activity and live recording in the spring of 1961, Davis was relatively inactive during 1962. He was evidently unhappy with Hank Mobley, though he did not replace him until sometime the following year. J.J. Johnson was added to the group as another solo voice, and the Sextet was booked at the Club Renaissance, Los Angeles (October 12-19); Minor Key Club, Detroit (December 7-10); Jazz Gallery, New York (December 21, 1961-January 3, 1962); Howard Theater, Washington (January 12-18 -- Johnson apparently did not make this gig); Mardi Gras Club, Kansas City (May 18-27); Music Box Theater, Los Angeles (June 1-10). A four-night engagement at the Music Box Club, Cleveland (December 6-9) was canceled and rescheduled for December 27-30. Mobley is still listed as the saxophonist at the end of 1962." link

I would definitely take anything in the autobiography with a grain of salt.

[Pete C]

Right you are, according to Szwed:

http://books.google.com/books?id=qDl3zKlMNbQC&pg=PA235&lpg=PA235&dq=rocky+boyd+miles+davis&source=bl&ots=n6VBP6N7DF&sig=6X2nEEvKUC54OgEbQMr7qpzYqCI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=AvYWT5-XFePi0QHKxfXEAg&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=rocky%20boyd%20miles%20davis&f=false

[JSngry]

Can anybody prove that Rocky Boyd really existed?

[Pete C]

Can anybody prove that Rocky Boyd really existed?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROCKY-BOYD-QUINTET-Kenny-Dorham-JAZZTIME-Sealed-LP-/320461090627

Edited January 18, 2012 by Pete C

[JSngry]

I've known that record since it was a Kenny Dorham side on Muse!

But that's not proof that Rocky Boyd really existed. It's just proof that somebody made a record and that a man was placed on the cover to represent "Rocky Boyd".

Has anybody ever actually spoken to him, or even heard him in the flesh?

The mystery of Dupree Bolton has more or less been solved. Not that of Rocky Boyd!

[Dan Gould]

But is there a reason to suppose that he didn't exist? Its not like he's a dead ringer for some other saxophonist and therefore maybe he was someone else. And anyway, if it was Nom De Session, wouldn't we know by now?

I'm pretty comfortable with the evidence that Rocky Boyd existed that Pete posted.

[JSngry]

Yeah, I know, But I'd like to see some fleshing out of whatever his reality was, just to be sure.

It's like, the guy is alleged to have played with Miles (and didn't that really amount to just sitting in at a concert? Seems like I've heard a story along those lines, not sure) and made the one record, and then...nothing.

[paul secor]

Previous thread

Can you take Jack's word for his existence?

Jim, you're in good company. In Jonathan Williams' book, A Palpable Elysium (highly recommended, by the way), he remarks of the writer, Guy Davenport: "He once asked me if I could prove that Vincent van Gogh actually existed and wasn't just a creation of his brother Theo. He said, 'There seems to be no known photograph of van Gogh. I find that odd.'"

Just did a search. There are photographs that may be photographs of van Gogh but, as far as I could find, that seems to be up for argument.

Edited January 18, 2012 by paul secor

[Shawn]

hank was his last chance at bebop greatness. discuss

Was anybody really trying for "bebop greatness" in 1961? Certainly not Miles, he was always looking forward. The Blackhawk band is joyous, I love the material that Hank recorded with Miles, but in the grand scheme of things it was an intermission.

[JSngry]

Previous thread

Can you take Jack's word for his existence?

Forgot about that thread, and yeah, Jack's word is good enough for me, although that he "used to show up in the audience for jazz gigs"...that's still rather nebulous, to put it mildly.

Has anybody ever heard of anybody who actually heard him play? In person? It's like the guy's not even a "local legend", which is really weird...

Not saying that he didn't exist, just that the proof as it exists is not exactly overwhelmingly positive...

[Trumpet Guy]

Can anybody prove that Rocky Boyd really existed?

The story I've heard is that Rocky Boyd was living in Boston. Came home to find some laced brownies in the fridge(of a famous pianist), but didn't know they were laced(with LSD possibly) and ate the entire tray. Story was that's when he disappeared. But also heard a few years later he turned up in Basie's or Duke's sax section--so who knows

Played a gig with Jimmy Cobb recently & he still sounds amazing! Bebopper or not!

Edited January 18, 2012 by Trumpet Guy

[clifford_thornton]

From the second interview with a musician that I ever did (I was pretty green but did not want to call Murray out on embellishments):

All About Jazz: All right, well, I wanted to first make sure I was correct on your statistics. You were born in 1936, right?

Sunny Murray: Yeah, Idabel, Oklahoma.

AAJ: When did you first move to New York?

SM: I moved to New York in 1956. In one way or another, I had always been involved in music; rhythm and blues and that sort of stuff as a kid, and I reached a point in Philadelphia where I couldn't get anything else going at the time. I was 18 going on 19, so I thought I'd go to New York and create a music career. Like I said, when I arrived in '56, Caf' Bohemia was still open. As a matter of fact, I lived across the street from Cafe Bohemia, at 3 Barrow Street. And, you know I had to live on the streets for a year, in the Bowery; I paid some dues' But by 1959, I was playing with the cats. I don't even know how it happened; between my studies and my motivation, in four years I was sort of well-known playing with Cecil (who had a much longer bebop career than I) but I had sort of a few years' bebop career. The tenor saxophonist who sort of began my career was Rocky Boyd, and he was hot, very hot at that period. He was responsible for bringing Sam Rivers into the music, Tony Williams into the music; he's from Boston. So he helped me begin, and he was very encouraging of me in my studies, as we were living together downtown. Because, from [age] 20-22, I had a coffee shop in the Village, called Cafe Somethin' Else, and I sold my shop to get deeper into the music and started studying harder. When I had my shop, you know, I had my drums in the back, and one thing led to another, and I became professional with Rocky, around '58, but really on the map with Cecil, as far as people know.

AAJ: So you began playing bop, but had you begun playing in a 'free' way before Cecil, when you were playing with people like Jackie McLean?

SM: Now I did a job with Jackie McLean through Rocky Boyd, at which time, in 1958, I sat in a couple of times with James Moody, I played some sessions with Donald Byrd and Doug Watkins. I did a lot of sessions. Some of the great drummers of the day were playing sessions together, at Count Basie's and Freddie's and Minton's. I met Jimmy Lyons at these sessions, before Cecil we were session comrades.

[Stereojack]

Previous thread

Can you take Jack's word for his existence?

Forgot about that thread, and yeah, Jack's word is good enough for me, although that he "used to show up in the audience for jazz gigs"...that's still rather nebulous, to put it mildly.

Has anybody ever heard of anybody who actually heard him play? In person? It's like the guy's not even a "local legend", which is really weird...

Not saying that he didn't exist, just that the proof as it exists is not exactly overwhelmingly positive...

I distinctly remember his being pointed out to me in the audience at a jazz gig I attended in the early 1980's. He looked a lot like an older version of the guy pictured on his only LP. I had no reason to doubt the ID, although I can't say I went up to him and asked him who he was!