Remembering Creed Taylor

[Rabshakeh]

Have we mentioned Jim Hall's Concierto? I've noticed that it rarely shows up in the Listening To thread here.

[danasgoodstuff]

Joel Dorn did some interesting work with RRK and Yusef, among others.  Very different in approach to Creed.  Even at its most heavily produced CTI wasn't conceptual the way Dorn often was.

[Larry Kart]

3 hours ago, felser said:

+1

Ordered it, in a two-fer with "Goodbye." I would put in a vote, though (yes, different eras, apples and oranges) for the "Milt Jackson Quartet" (Prestige), with superb comping from Horace Silver, and "The Jazz Skyline" (Savoy), with Lucky Thompson, Hank Jones, Wendel Marshall, and Kenny Clarke.

[mjzee]

31 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

Ordered it, in a two-fer with "Goodbye." I would put in a vote, though (yes, different eras, apples and oranges) for the "Milt Jackson Quartet" (Prestige), with superb comping from Horace Silver, and "The Jazz Skyline" (Savoy), with Lucky Thompson, Hank Jones, Wendel Marshall, and Kenny Clarke.

Speaking of Lucky, Creed produced those great Lucky trio recordings on ABC (later released on Impulse on LP as "Dancing Sunbeam" and on CD as "Tricotism").  Great, great music, intelligent and touching at the same time.

[JSngry]

37 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

Ordered it, in a two-fer with "Goodbye." I would put in a vote, though (yes, different eras, apples and oranges) for the "Milt Jackson Quartet" (Prestige), with superb comping from Horace Silver, and "The Jazz Skyline" (Savoy), with Lucky Thompson, Hank Jones, Wendel Marshall, and Kenny Clarke.

Apples and oranges it is, and just remember, the claim is not that it is "the best", just that there are none better.

Goodbye is really good too CTI did well by Milt, actually. 

[sgcim]

18 hours ago, CJ Shearn said:

Yeah, the remix that ended up on The Sugar Man.  I have the Gilberto with Turrentine Japanese RVG and have no need for the alternate mix.  I prefer the original Gilberto with Turrentine one.

I almost forgot about that Gilberto and Turrentine album, which IMHO was more consistent than Salt Song (other than the title track, of course)

Stanley kills on everything, and there's always Astrud and great Deodato arrangements again.

The pairing of Stanley and Astrud worked a lot better than the ridiculous pairing of Astrud and Gil Evans.

3 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I hear you.  The production values didn't work for me.  And I just climbed up my library ladder to find that I did indeed hang onto Red Clay.  I will give it a spin this weekend.

That would be great.  There is very little info on Kenyon Hopkins out there, that I've been able to find at least.  He has always been a very mysterious figure.  If what you're saying is true, maybe it's better that we keep him mysterious!

Completely agree.  

He wrote back and said it's coming in the future. I hope we're not going to get another Al Haig drama...

[JSngry]

2 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

Have we mentioned Jim Hall's Concierto? I've noticed that it rarely shows up in the Listening To thread here.

Loved it at the time, has lost a little luster over the years for me.

[Teasing the Korean]

11 hours ago, sgcim said:

He wrote back and said it's coming in the future. I hope we're not going to get another Al Haig drama...

Let him know that there are at least two Kenyon Hopkins fans who are waiting! 

11 hours ago, sgcim said:

The pairing of Stanley and Astrud worked a lot better than the ridiculous pairing of Astrud and Gil Evans.

The Astrud/Gil Evans pairing did not work for me at all.  

[Peter Friedman]

14 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

 I would put in a vote, though (yes, different eras, apples and oranges) for the "Milt Jackson Quartet" (Prestige), with superb comping from Horace Silver, and "The Jazz Skyline" (Savoy), with Lucky Thompson, Hank Jones, Wendel Marshall, and Kenny Clarke.

Yes Larry, much more to my taste than Milt on CTI.

If I was home and had access to my files,  I would  list all the many albums by Milt Jackson that are favorites of mine.  

[JSngry]

There's also Cherry a co-lead date with Stanley Turrentine. It's a typical CTI gambit, with a rhythm section that might raise eyebrows, but the result is a good straight-ahead session with a 70s sheen. Ignore it at your own peril! 

The only Milt CTI that underperforms imo is Olinga. 

[Daniel A]

I think you'll get misleading results if you compare albums by the same artist CTI vs non-CTI. The CTI catalog is a body of work on its own and quite an achievement.

[mjzee]

A really instructive comparison is Milt Jackson on CTI vs. Pablo.  Shows the need for a good producer (vs. one that's AWOL).  Also shows the need for attractive packaging and good merchandising.

Vs:

[Teasing the Korean]

21 minutes ago, mjzee said:

A really instructive comparison is Milt Jackson on CTI vs. Pablo.  Shows the need for a good producer (vs. one that's AWOL).  Also shows the need for attractive packaging and good merchandising.

I've often wondered if I may have bought more Pablo albums if they didn't look so amateurish.

30 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

I think you'll get misleading results if you compare albums by the same artist CTI vs non-CTI. The CTI catalog is a body of work on its own and quite an achievement.

Precisely.

[felser]

3 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I've often wondered if I may have bought more Pablo albums if they didn't look so amateurish.

I liked their initial design with the black & white photos, but when they moved off that, the covers didn't work.

[HutchFan]

30 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I've often wondered if I may have bought more Pablo albums if they didn't look so amateurish.

So true!  IMO, most Pablo covers not only look amateurish; they look downright CHEAP.  

There's no design sensibility at all -- even when (as occasionally happens) the cover photography is strong.

Minimalistic (and inexpensive) design doesn't have to look cheap.  

It bugs me because it's a disservice to the music.  People shouldn't have to "overcome" the packaging to get to the music.  The design should invite listeners in!  

Creed Taylor understood that.

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by HutchFan

[jazzbo]

I'd rather listen to Pablo Milt than CTI Milt myself. And covers are a minor consideration for me. 

[Big Beat Steve]

1 hour ago, HutchFan said:

So true!  IMO, most Pablo covers not only look amateurish; they look downright CHEAP.  

There's no design sensibility at all -- even when (as occasionally happens) the cover photography is strong.

Minimalistic (and inexpensive) design doesn't have to look cheap.  

It bugs me because it's a disservice to the music.  People shouldn't have to "overcome" the packaging to get to the music.  The design should invite listeners in! 

I got into Pablo sort of late but have caught up a little, and in all fairness, Pablos ARE recognizable (and today's Mosaic buyers should not be put off by those black covers with black B/W photographs anyway ). And while they may have been relatively cheap from an artist's angle (I'd not call them cheap but all too matter-of-factish), there were TONS of MUCH worse covers from that era. Particularly many, many from the 70s that were used to repackage reissues of earlier jazz recordings. Out of style, out of tune, out of phase, out of everything. Just apparently botched up to spare the 70s buyer the shock of having to look at covers with artwork that reflected the artwork style of the era that the music was recorded in (and of course often patched on the sleeve to lure the buyer into picking up an item that "looked recent" but repackaged reissues of older tracks). And often graphically cheap to boot ...

Besides, at least IMO I cannot really see the JAZZ appeal all in those 70s/early 80s jazz covers that looked like they might just as much have been rock (prog, psych, even country rock, whatever ...) or soul/funk album covers of those years. Not something that would have really turned me on to them at first glimpse for its JAZZ content and certainly something that had to be "overcome" too. Might be OK for fusion sessions - but straight-ahead blowing jazz? And that might even have included some of the CTI covers I have seen here in this thread (not that I had been consciously aware of CTI bakc then ...). 
Just my 2c ...

Edited September 1, 2022 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, felser said:

I liked their initial design with the black & white photos, but when they moved off that, the covers didn't work.

This.

Probably long forgotten, but Pablo initially had a list price that was a dollar higher than everybody else, with glossy covers to boot. The stark black and white thing stood out in the bins, as did CTI on the other end of the design spectrum (but they both had glossy covers).

The message was that these were prestige products. And for a while they were. 

 

[Peter Friedman]

38 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

I'd rather listen to Pablo Milt than CTI Milt myself. And covers are a minor consideration for me. 

Absolutely, I like the Pablo Milt Jackson CDs very much. Highly swinging music without over production or slickness.

[JSngry]

I need somebody to define "slickness" for me, please. And why it's by definition a bad thing. When I grew up, "slick" was usually a compliment. 

[Big Beat Steve]

16 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I need somebody to define "slickness" for me, please. And why it's by definition a bad thing. When I grew up, "slick" was usually a compliment. 

Interesting indeed and a matter of "one man's meat"...
Probably a case of personal preferences and dislikes put into a "one-word-fits-all-pejoratives" package.

Like "cute", for example ... 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Big Beat Steve

[HutchFan]

18 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Probably long forgotten, but Pablo initially had a list price that was a dollar higher than everybody else, with glossy covers to boot. The stark black and white thing stood out in the bins, as did CTI on the other end of the design spectrum (but they both had glossy covers).

The message was that these were prestige products. And for a while they were. 

I hear you -- but the "prestige" sensibility never came across to me. 

It might be a function of my age.  I was first encountering Pablo records well after-the-fact -- in the late-80s and early-90s when I was first getting into jazz.

So I wasn't there when they first came out.  Maybe that's part of the equation.  Who knows.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

4 hours ago, JSngry said:

There's also Cherry a co-lead date with Stanley Turrentine. It's a typical CTI gambit, with a rhythm section that might raise eyebrows, but the result is a good straight-ahead session with a 70s sheen. Ignore it at your own peril! 

The only Milt CTI that underperforms imo is Olinga. 

Nice rendition of Lee Morgan's "Speedball" on Cherry, if I was to buy a CTI Turrentine it would probably be this one.  And I can't believe you don't know what 'slick' means and why it might be a negative for some people in some contexts.  'Slick' in several dimensions isn't my only issue with CTI, it's even a positive sometimes, but it's a big part of it.  That and stiff and coasting/skating, and yes, they are.

Edited September 1, 2022 by danasgoodstuff
clarify

[HutchFan]

18 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I need somebody to define "slickness" for me, please. And why it's by definition a bad thing. When I grew up, "slick" was usually a compliment. 

You know what he means, Jim.

High-touch, hands-on production, i.e., Creed Taylor is slick.  Hands-off production, i.e., Alfred Lion is not slick.

In the context that Peter used it, it's derogatory.  In other contexts, it's a compliment.

 

[Big Beat Steve]

1 minute ago, HutchFan said:

I hear you -- but the "prestige" sensibility never came across to me. 

It might be a function of my age.  I was first encountering Pablo records well after-the-fact -- in the late-80s and early-90s when I was first getting into jazz.

So I wasn't there when they first came out.  Maybe that's part of the equation.  Who knows.

 

Pablo definitely was in the upper price brackets of jazz LPS over here in the 70s too, and they did look stark and austere in a "prestige" way to me. Maybe a bit like Mosaics came across later on (though of course the Pablos never were THAT upmarket). 
70s latter-day recordings of 50s jazz heros were not my cuppa in the 70s and ealry 80s (student funds were limited and main preferences elsewhere) so I did not buy them in any quantities until quite a bit later but their price when new certainly had an effect too.