Miles Davis Live at the Plugged Nickel

[Stompin at the Savoy]

23 minutes ago, JSngry said:

You're giving them waaaay too much credit.

Haha.  Well, I can see that the word 'noodling' presses a button for you.  I get what you mean but this isn't really the issue here.  My friend listened and heard something to him very abstract and hard to get into for him at that point in time.  How he described his difficulty and how people who don't listen to jazz interpret what they hear is perhaps a subject for another day and  tangential to the argument that this music may not have been reissued for 30 years because it is difficult for the average person to connect to. And I would contend that it is demanding listening even for somebody in awe of it; it is not background music.

[JSngry]

He "heard" and "listened".

What he meant was "this music is incomprehensible to me and that's their fault, not mine".

It's always somebody else's fault. Nobody ever says " I don't like this because don't yet, maybe will never, understand it".

You find a person who is that reality-based, you have maybe found a friend!

Oh yeah, "demanding music" is more often than not a fun listen for me. And I know I'm not alone in that (and it's not just musicians).

But a simple "I don't get" is adequate and honest. This "noodling" thing just bullshit. Period.

[Stompin at the Savoy]

30 minutes ago, JSngry said:

He "heard" and "listened".

What he meant was "this music is incomprehensible to me and that's their fault, not mine".

It's always somebody else's fault. Nobody ever says " I don't like this because don't yet, maybe will never, understand it".

You find a person who is that reality-based, you have maybe found a friend!

Oh yeah, "demanding music" is more often than not a fun listen for me. And I know I'm not alone in that (and it's not just musicians).

But a simple "I don't get" is adequate and honest. This "noodling" thing just bullshit. Period.

OK I get it, you are just gonna keep flogging that horse because this is a pet peeve and hobby-horse for you.  I don't like it because it condemns people for ignorance, which is curable, and it divides people into your categories of reality-based vs bullshit people.  This is a defensive, blame-dealing approach which is almost always doomed to failure because people like being condemned even less than being educated.

[JSngry]

30 minutes ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

OK I get it, you are just gonna keep flogging that horse because this is a pet peeve and hobby-horse for you.  I don't like it because it condemns people for ignorance, which is curable, and it divides people into your categories of reality-based vs bullshit people.  This is a defensive, blame-dealing approach which is almost always doomed to failure because people like being condemned even less than being educated.

 

[Kevin Bresnahan]

4 hours ago, JSngry said:

He "heard" and "listened".

What he meant was "this music is incomprehensible to me and that's their fault, not mine".

It's always somebody else's fault. Nobody ever says " I don't like this because don't yet, maybe will never, understand it".

You find a person who is that reality-based, you have maybe found a friend!

Oh yeah, "demanding music" is more often than not a fun listen for me. And I know I'm not alone in that (and it's not just musicians).

But a simple "I don't get" is adequate and honest. This "noodling" thing just bullshit. Period.

"demanding music"? You mean like avant garde stuff? I consider myself a pretty good listener and I don't like most of it. Fun? No way. I'd much rather listen to music that gets me to tap my feet rather than grind my teeth. If a soloist is just screeching at full volumes a la Brotzmann, I do not like it. Noodling? Maybe?

We're picking nits and choosing to stand our ground over the definition of noodling? Really? We already lost one regular visitor (Bertrand) over this thread. Are we shooting for more?

[JSngry]

Most "avant-garde" music is predictable to one degree or another. That's not at all demanding, it's quite the opposite!

[mjazzg]

11 minutes ago, Kevin Bresnahan said:

"demanding music"? You mean like avant garde stuff? I consider myself a pretty good listener and I don't like most of it. Fun? No way. I'd much rather listen to music that gets me to tap my feet rather than grind my teeth. If a soloist is just screeching at full volumes a la Brotzmann, I do not like it. Noodling? Maybe?

We're picking nits and choosing to stand our ground over the definition of noodling? Really? We already lost one regular visitor (Bertrand) over this thread. Are we shooting for more?

I tapped my foot every time I saw Brötzmann play. Just saying, doesn't add anything to the "debate" I admit, beyond the old trope of letting each person enjoy the music they enjoy in the way they do and avoid generalisations.

[JSngry]

A long while back, I make a rule not to discuss music with anybody unless I know that they know what they're getting into. And that's most people.

We can talk about other stuff and we can still be friends.

[mikeweil]

56 minutes ago, JSngry said:

We can talk about other stuff and we can still be friends.

Well, yes, but - isn't this a jazz forum, and isn't jazz some kind of music? 😎

[JSngry]

I'm talking about in real life 

[Stompin at the Savoy]

3 hours ago, JSngry said:

I'm talking about in real life 

What you don't regard us as real people?  Last I checked I actually am a real person who lives in the real world.  And in that real world I communicate with other jazz fans on this board (whom I strongly suspect are real people too!).  When we sell each other cd's they come in the mail in the real world and are real objects.  Regarding us as internet phantoms who don't exist in the real world seems odd and very possibly disrespectful to me.  As far as your feud with everybody in the in person 'real world' whose jazz expertise is inferior to yours - maybe it's time to take that chip off your shoulder.

Edited 16 hours ago by Stompin at the Savoy

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

What you don't regard us as real people?  Last I checked I actually am a real person who lives in the real world.  And in that real world I communicate with other jazz fans on this board (whom I strongly suspect are real people too!).  When we sell each other cd's they come in the mail in the real world and are real objects.  Regarding us as internet phantoms who don't exist in the real world seems odd and very possibly disrespectful to me.  As far as your feud with everybody in the in person 'real world' whose jazz expertise is inferior to yours - maybe it's time to take that chip off your shoulder.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

3 hours ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

What you don't regard us as real people?  Last I checked I actually am a real person who lives in the real world.  And in that real world I communicate with other jazz fans on this board (whom I strongly suspect are real people too!).  When we sell each other cd's they come in the mail in the real world and are real objects.  Regarding us as internet phantoms who don't exist in the real world seems odd and very possibly disrespectful to me.  As far as your feud with everybody in the in person 'real world' whose jazz expertise is inferior to yours - maybe it's time to take that chip off your shoulder.

You know perfectly well that isn't what he was saying.  Total straw man argument.

15 hours ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

To me the Plugged Nickel sessions operate on a number of levels.  On the one hand this is a band playing mostly some standards.  You can just enjoy the performances as such.  From another point of view there is a sort of meta message: a commentary on the playing of standards.  This way of playing a standard is different from before.  Previously the time might change once, into double time or something like that, and back again.  Here tempo and time change suddenly at will.  Instead of theme, solos, restatement of theme in five minutes, the pieces wander around and stretch boundaries for 15 or 20 minutes.  This is already exploding the way that standards were mostly played at the time.  Now some inexperienced listeners will take the whole thing as it comes to them and enjoy the performance without any awareness of how this is a development in the genre and I have no quibble with that.  Others are aware of groundbreaking aspects of the performances in the context of the development of jazz.  Just as a young person might read something that satirizes another piece of literature and only see the surface story, others who are familiar with what is being satirized might see deeper meanings and humor.

As far as the request to define noodling - this is asking the wrong question.  If you are reading this discussion, 'noodling' is not really part of your critical vocabulary.  'Noodling' is a term typically applied by people who are not jazz aficionados.  My friend used this term when confronted with Plugged Nickel.  I suppose I understand it to mean soloing in way which is casually playing around with notes that fit, conventionally, but are idle and do not cohere into a bigger pattern that feels like a story.  Dinking around, fooling around, exploring as you might in practice. 

I am trying to explain what I believe people mean when they use this term, not how I approach the Plugged Nickel Sessions.  To me they are revolutionary, serious music which is exhausting, like the over-stimulation of spending a lot of time in a big museum or art gallery.

On the other hand, this is totally reasonable and moves the conversation forward.

[mikeweil]

I consider myself a serious jazz aficionado, and depending on my mood, there are times when I cannot endure too much "noodling". It is like playing and thinking, "do  i really need that many notes?" It is part of jazz, playing licks over the chord changes or whatever. The point is whether it makes sense to the player, or to the listener, are you experimenting - that band certainly did - and so on. I think it comes down to saying you do not like or get something without making negative comments. Talking about music or anything without judging. It is hard, I know.

"Noodling" can be such a negative term,  unless you use quotation marks. 

[Stompin at the Savoy]

6 hours ago, danasgoodstuff said:

You know perfectly well that isn't what he was saying.  Total straw man argument.

 

Really?  OK you explain what he means.  He says he refuses to talk to anyone about music unless they are up to his  standards of music understanding.  When it was pointed out that we talk about music here he shifts to oh I meant in the real world.  So what does that mean?  He's ok with us because he can always turn us off?  In what world does it make sense to say I won't talk about music with you unless you are up to my level of understanding but nothing personal against you, I only do that when the person is in front of me?  WTF?  We are qualitatively different because we are not in close proximity?  Please make it make sense.  It's nonsense and I am done with it because the conversation keeps getting pulled into Jim's hangups and emotional responses to the word noodling instead of the Plugged Nickel sessions.

Edited 6 hours ago by Stompin at the Savoy

[Niko]

Noodling is also quite specifically what jazz sounds like to those who don't get it - either temporarily or just in general... When people don't get Terry Riley or Wagner or Death Metal, they probably don't talk about noodling...

Be all that as it may, what matters is that we don't lose further members to stupid discussions that got harsh just out of nothing

[JSngry]

2 hours ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

Really?  OK you explain what he means.  He says he refuses to talk to anyone about music unless they are up to his  standards of music understanding.  When it was pointed out that we talk about music here he shifts to oh I meant in the real world.  So what does that mean?  He's ok with us because he can always turn us off?  In what world does it make sense to say I won't talk about music with you unless you are up to my level of understanding but nothing personal against you, I only do that when the person is in front of me?  WTF?  We are qualitatively different because we are not in close proximity?  Please make it make sense.  It's nonsense and I am done with it because the conversation keeps getting pulled into Jim's hangups and emotional responses to the word noodling instead of the Plugged Nickel sessions.

That's enough. I'm putting you on ignore 

[clifford_thornton]

Wow, there's more tension in this thread than on the Plugged Nickel set itself 😂

Seriously, though, it is very odd that the music has not been re-released on CD or LP since the boxed set/doorstop as far as I can tell. I have fond memories of first hearing some of it at my aunt's house (she used to post here), when I was first getting interested in jazz. The band was on fire and their collective search is riveting. I bought the set used, eventually, for a price that was not too insurmountable.

Miles' 100th is next year, and maybe we can expect some of these boxes to come back into circulation.

[ghost of miles]

I didn't realize Light in the Attic was doing a CD version of this set as well. On the fence about upgrading from the 1995 box--in the meantime this thread has inspired me to start revisiting it. Oh hey look, it's lunch time! 😉

[clifford_thornton]

I must've glossed over the LITA box if it was noted in this thread. Interesting.

[felser]

11 minutes ago, ghost of miles said:

I didn't realize Light in the Attic was doing a CD version of this set as well. On the fence about upgrading from the 1995 box

+1, depends on price point and reviews on how much of an improvement it is.  I like the 1995 box.

Edited 2 hours ago by felser

[ghost of miles]

Just now, felser said:

+1, depends on price point and reviews on how much of an imorivement it is.  I like the 1995 box.

Me too, outside of the crazy jagged-geometrical layout for the booklet notes--a style that iirc was in vogue for a number of box set releases in the mid-1990s. 

[felser]

1 hour ago, clifford_thornton said:

 

Seriously, though, it is very odd that the music has not been re-released on CD or LP since the boxed set/doorstop as far as I can tell. I have fond memories of first hearing some of it at my aunt's house (she used to post here), when I was first getting interested in jazz. The band was on fire and their collective search is riveting. I bought the set used, eventually, for a price that was not too insurmountable.

Miles' 100th is next year, and maybe we can expect some of these boxes to come back into circulation.

I also waited years to get this at a reasonable price.  As far as lack of availability of Miles sets, I've never understood why the On The Corner box was not reprinted to meet the demand.

[clifford_thornton]

The OTC box is my favorite of the ones that I own.

[JSngry]

Yep.