Chuck Nessa

America unleashed

372 posts in this topic

Two different COVID threads were closed because they veered into politics and this thread is on its third page. :huh:

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16 hours ago, Brad said:

Point out to me please where he’s made that distinction. The article I posted indicated that helicopters were used against citizens who were not looting or stealing. In addition, I don’t want the US military used against crimes such as larceny. That is the jurisdiction of local authorities.

When the US military gets involved in that kind of police activity, it’s a very small step to a military takeover.  Of all the people on the forum, I’m probably one of the few who have seen dictatorships firsthand. I lived in Brasil in 1964 when the military overthrew the popularly elected government of Joao Goulart and unleashed a reign of terror.  I also lived in Spain during the reign of Franco and saw how they operated. Lastly, I was a masters candidate in Latin American Studies when Allende was overthrown. Those memories are seared into my being and I think we’re headed down that road. 

Damn. Well, now you're in the belly of the beast that drove those coups in Brasil & Chile. Hoping the brakes get pumped a bit on our own acceleration but that sliver of hope is very thin. 

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Posted (edited)

17 minutes ago, Justin V said:

Two different COVID threads were closed because they veered into politics and this thread is on its third page. :huh:

I’m actually surprised that this thread even existed, let it alone that it was allowed to go on this long. There’s a reason that politics aren’t a good idea. They create ill feeling among us; the Hoffman forum must have had 20 different threads that were shut down. The last one dealt with both the Coronavirus and the demonstrations. Looks like the mods had enough because it’s gone too 

The world is bad enough. Let’s try to create a temporary diversion from it. 

Edited by Brad

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Posted (edited)

If dogs run free, then why not we
Across the swooping plain?
My ears hear a symphony
Of two mules, trains and rain.
The best is always yet to come,
That's what they explain to me.
Just do your thing, you'll be king,
If dogs run free.

If dogs run free, why not me
Across the swamp of time?
My mind weaves a symphony
And tapestry of rhyme.
Oh, winds which rush my tale to thee
So it may flow and be,
To each his own, it's all unknown,
If dogs run free.

 

---Robert Zimmerman

Edited by jazzbo

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26 minutes ago, catesta said:

What is Covid?

It's taking a media break until fall. It's using the time to refresh, revitalize, and rejuvenate.

The smart money continues to watch the #s anyway.

25 minutes ago, Brad said:

I’m actually surprised that this thread even existed, let it alone that it was allowed to go on this long. There’s a reason that politics aren’t a good idea. They create ill feeling among us; the Hoffman forum must have had 20 different threads that were shut down. The last one dealt with both the Coronavirus and the demonstrations. Looks like the mods had enough because it’s gone too 

The world is bad enough. Let’s try to create a temporary diversion from it. 

So...are you going to continue to post about police states and military coups or not?

I mean, I don't care, your call on that one, just wondering what the guiding principle is going to be.

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As long as it’s allowed, I will post when pertinent. 

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46 minutes ago, catesta said:

What is Covid?

FWIW, NYC is offering free testing at numerous locations; I've been out marching, and will try to get tested this week and periodically thereafter.

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53 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

FWIW, NYC is offering free testing at numerous locations; I've been out marching, and will try to get tested this week and periodically thereafter.

I've been tested. Not because I though I had it but because a mechanic that works in my shop claimed his wife tested positive after attending a funeral on the reservation and then came into our office. I paid to have my office staff which includes my wife all tested and decided to include myself and a couple of others. Test results for the whole crew came back good.

 

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

It's taking a media break until fall. It's using the time to refresh, revitalize, and rejuvenate.

The smart money continues to watch the #s anyway.

 

Trust me, I'm still watching.

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6 minutes ago, catesta said:

I've been tested. Not because I though I had it but because a mechanic that works in my shop claimed his wife tested positive after attending a funeral on the reservation and then came into our office. I paid to have my office staff which includes my wife all tested and decided to include myself and a couple of others. Test results for the whole crew came back good.

 

That's great news, Chris!

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3 minutes ago, ghost of miles said:

That's great news, Chris!

For us, yes, for the mechanic not so much. We paid him two weeks while off but wont' be bringing him back. His test came back negative too but turned up positive for sticky fingers.

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18 hours ago, Brad said:

When the US military gets involved in that kind of police activity, it’s a very small step to a military takeover.  Of all the people on the forum, I’m probably one of the few who have seen dictatorships firsthand. I lived in Brasil in 1964 when the military overthrew the popularly elected government of Joao Goulart and unleashed a reign of terror.  I also lived in Spain during the reign of Franco and saw how they operated. Lastly, I was a masters candidate in Latin American Studies when Allende was overthrown. Those memories are seared into my being and I think we’re headed down that road. 

JFC.

"It's a very small step to a military take over" except for:

230 years of not ever happening;

Extremely well-trained military with an absolute understanding of what their role and position is in the system.

How long was Brazil a democracy before 1964 (serious question)? Also had the military intervened at any time in the past (also serious)?

This is nothing but TDS on the level of "Trump will stay in office regardless of the election."

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I'd like to add that, as a general principle, history is a trailing indicator rather than an absolute predictor, odds, being just that - odds.

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31 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

JFC.

"It's a very small step to a military take over" except for:

230 years of not ever happening;

Extremely well-trained military with an absolute understanding of what their role and position is in the system.

How long was Brazil a democracy before 1964 (serious question)? Also had the military intervened at any time in the past (also serious)?

This is nothing but TDS on the level of "Trump will stay in office regardless of the election."

These acronyms are probably easy to understand for American users here, but for non-US posters like me it's usually abracadbra - so, what does TDS stand for?

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Posted (edited)

43 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

JFC.

"It's a very small step to a military take over" except for:

230 years of not ever happening;

Extremely well-trained military with an absolute understanding of what their role and position is in the system.

How long was Brazil a democracy before 1964 (serious question)? Also had the military intervened at any time in the past (also serious)?

This is nothing but TDS on the level of "Trump will stay in office regardless of the election."

You make some valid points. Brasil had a dictatorship between 1930 and 1954 and a struggling democracy after that for 10 years, so there’s that. However, Chile had a robust democracy until 1973  

To say that it can’t happen here is hopeful thinking and although I hope you’re right just because it hasn’t happened doesn’t mean it can’t.

As for thinking that Trump won’t leave office if he loses, I think it’s a serious possibility that he won’t. It’s been discussed a lot and as the election gets closer, the discussion will increase. For example, see this Is There Any Point in Talking About Trump’s Upcoming Refusal to Leave Office?

9 minutes ago, J.A.W. said:

These acronyms are probably easy to understand for American users here, but for non-US posters like me it's usually abracadbra - so, what does TDS stand for?

JFC means Jesus Fucking Christ I believe and TDS means Trump Derangement Syndrome, today being the first time I heard this term.  Here’s the Urban Dictionary definition, https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TDS

Edited by Brad

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Posted (edited)

14 minutes ago, Brad said:

JFC means Jesus Fucking Christ I believe and TDS means Trump Derangement Syndrome, today being the first time I heard this term.  Here’s the Urban Dictionary definition, https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TDS

OK, thanks. I can see why some of these acronyms are what they are, well, acronyms :)

Edited by J.A.W.

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1 minute ago, J.A.W. said:

OK, thanks. I can see why some of these acronyms are what they are, well, acronyms :)

Same here. 

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29 minutes ago, Brad said:

 

As for thinking that Trump won’t leave office if he loses, I think it’s a serious possibility that he won’t. It’s been discussed a lot and as the election gets closer, the discussion will increase. For example, see this Is There Any Point in Talking About Trump’s Upcoming Refusal to Leave Office?

 

It's pretty amusing that its the left, home of Hilary (Russia beat me, not Trump) Clinton and Stacey (I'm the Governor of Georgia) Abrams, are the ones who insist Trump won't leave office after he loses. Just because the left keeps saying it doesn't mean it will happen or even could happen.

And part of the reason that it couldn't happen is that if Trump called out the army to keep him in the oval office, they would ignore his ineffectual orders. That would be the military that you think is close to being the tip of the spear that will turn us into a military dictatorship.

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No, it doesn’t mean it will happen — and I certainly hope it doesn’t but his autocratic nature and love for dictators says otherwise — but we’ll find out when he loses won’t we. Just because the rightists says it won’t doesn’t mean it won’t happen either.

As far as Trump calling out the Army and the Army ignoring him, my work experience with some former military personnel is that they follow orders; it’s in the nature of the profession. In addition, as a masters candidate I studied military coups and the military followed what their leaders said. 

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1 minute ago, Brad said:

... my work experience with some former military personnel is that they follow orders; it’s in the nature of the profession. In addition, as a masters candidate I studied military coups and the military followed what their leaders said. 

Which would be all the more of a shame, then, that, of all armies, the Red Army in Moscow of 1991 (yes, dem Commies!) did NOT obey orders when a group of Army leaders tried to overthrow Gorbachev and turn back Perestroika.
 

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Maybe it's me, but I don't see what part of this thread is not political and why it still exists, against forum rules ("no politics. no religion").

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at a certain point on here, we will have to have some political discussions. There's just no way around talking about the fact that Black Lives Matter and that the police have been going nuts on people of color for decades. Silence = complicity.

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22 minutes ago, J.A.W. said:

Maybe it's me, but I don't see what part of this thread is not political and why it still exists, against forum rules ("no politics. no religion").

Maybe it is an indicator that this matter is REALLY serious and worries a lot of US forumists deeply?

Contrary to this or that political discussion in the past about some (objectively speaking) minor domestic matter of not that great consequences overasll that some hick in the stick politician wanted to enact (or prevent) and that gave rise to flame wars here anyway because hotly partisan Reps and Dems went at each other's throats as a matter of principle? This here seems to be different. Different enough not to turn a blind eye on it. And as an outside observer I do understand their concerns.

Clifford Thornton's analogy of silence = complicity is comprehensible. After all you can ride a principle (such as this "no politics") to death and find yourself in some cloudcuckooland that all of a sudden isn't that cosy anymore either because the world out there IS still there and most of what happens there (and affects everybody'y lives) IS political.

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Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, Dan Gould said:

It's pretty amusing that its the left, home of Hilary (Russia beat me, not Trump) Clinton and Stacey (I'm the Governor of Georgia) Abrams, are the ones who insist Trump won't leave office after he loses. Just because the left keeps saying it doesn't mean it will happen or even could happen.

And part of the reason that it couldn't happen is that if Trump called out the army to keep him in the oval office, they would ignore his ineffectual orders. That would be the military that you think is close to being the tip of the spear that will turn us into a military dictatorship.

I agree that it would be very unlikely for army generals to support Trump staying in office after losing the election.   But I don't think that would stop Trump from crying election fraud and doing everything in his power to nullify the election results.   That could even include calling his "2nd amendment people" to go to the streets.   It won't be pretty, but I PRAY that he does lose.  Because America is finished if he doesn't. 

Edited by John L

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