Brad

In today's New York Times: Title Is Theirs, and Red Sox Want Ball That Goes With It By TYLER KEPNER Published: January 8, 2005 It is the ninth inning, it is late October, and your team is one out from winning the World Series. You are one of nine fielders on the winning team, and the baseball that clinches the championship lands in your glove. What do you do with it? It happened last fall to the Boston Red Sox' first baseman, Doug Mientkiewicz, a defensive replacement with three months of service with the team. He secured the ball that ended 86 years of torture for New England fans. He still has it, and according to an article yesterday in The Boston Globe, the Red Sox want it back. "What do I do in his case?" Kent Hrbek, a member of the Minnesota Twins' 1987 title team, said yesterday. "I'd run and hide. That's a pretty significant baseball." Hrbek was laughing over the phone as he said it. He and Mientkiewicz are former Twins first basemen, and each has caught the last out of a World Series. When Hrbek did it, to wrap up the Twins' first championship, he gave the ball to his manager, Tom Kelly, during the postgame party in the clubhouse. If Mientkiewicz asked him what to do, Hrbek said, he would tell him to give the ball back. "If it was a tennis match and you won the last point with that ball, sure, you can keep it," Hrbek said. "But I think it's the team's baseball. It's a team sport, and I think the team should get to have it. I think he'll think about it, and he'll probably give it up. He's smart enough to realize it's the team's baseball." The Red Sox believe it is, or at least they believe it should be. Their president, Larry Lucchino, told The Globe that the team would ask Mientkiewicz to return the ball so it could be part of the team's collection and shared with fans. "We aren't going to have any other comment until we have a chance to talk to Doug directly about this matter," Lucchino said in an e-mail message yesterday. "We certainly owe him that courtesy." On Oct. 27 at Busch Stadium in St. Louis, with two outs in the ninth inning of Game 4, Keith Foulke, the Red Sox' closer, fielded a grounder from the Cardinals' Edgar Renteria. Foulke carefully fielded it and made an underhand toss to Mientkiewicz, who caught the ball for the final out and rushed to leap on Foulke. Mientkiewicz, who is 30, told The Globe that he had given the ball to his wife, Jodi, who had it authenticated by Major League Baseball the next day. He said that the ball was with his 2000 Olympic gold medal in a safe deposit box in Miami. "That's my retirement fund," he said, later adding: "I can be bought. I'm thinking, there's four years at Florida State for one of my kids." The topic raged on Boston call-in shows yesterday, and Mientkiewicz went on WEEI radio and clarified his comments. He did not rule out ever selling the ball but said he was joking when he said he could be bought. "The last thing I am is money crazy," said Mientkiewicz, who made $2.8 million last season. "But I'm also not going to give the thing away, either." Mientkiewicz said he would be happy to lend the ball to the Red Sox, and he spoke yesterday with the principal owner, John Henry. "We didn't discuss solutions," Henry said in an e-mail message, adding that Lucchino had already stated the team's position. "I just wanted to listen to what his feelings were with regard to all of this. I have a great deal of respect for Doug." Paul Weiler, a professor of law at Harvard, sided with the Red Sox. "Certainly, if it had gone into the hands of a fan in the stands, like the one who caught McGwire's 70th home run, it belongs to the person who paid to be there catching the ball," Weiler said in an e-mail message. "On the other hand, Mientkiewicz is being paid by the Red Sox. To be out on the field catching that ball, and as an employee, even a unionized one, his rights likely are different." The ball that Mark McGwire hit for his 70th home run in 1998, then the record for a season, sold for $3 million, including commission, the most paid to date for a baseball. Arlan Ettinger, president of Guernsey's auction house, which auctioned that ball in early 1999, said he doubted that the Red Sox ball would go for the same amount. "If I had to throw a number out, I'd probably say a million dollars," he said. Mientkiewicz could follow the example of Cal Ripken Jr., who caught a liner to end the 1983 World Series for the Baltimore Orioles. Ripken owns the ball, but he has lent it to the Babe Ruth Museum near Camden Yards. Jeff Idelson, a vice president at the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, N.Y., said the Hall of Fame had the ball from the final out of only two championships, 1889 and 1903. Idelson said the fate of the 2004 ball was an issue between the Red Sox and Mientkiewicz; the Hall of Fame did not ask for it after Game 4. "There were so many compelling stories that the ball from the final out wasn't one we pursued," he said. In his 10 years with the Hall of Fame, Idelson said, he has asked for the last out of a World Series only once: in 1998, when Yankees first baseman Tino Martinez caught the throw from third baseman Scott Brosius to finish a four-game sweep. But by the time Idelson asked him, Martinez had given the ball to Andy Pettitte, whose father, Tom, was ailing. Idelson did not ask Pettitte for it. The whereabouts of other final World Series balls are less certain. Larry Shenk, a longtime Phillies vice president, said he did not know what became of the ball from the final out of the Phillies' only title, in 1980. Catcher Bob Boone got it after a strikeout, but Boone's son Aaron, the former Yankees playoff hero, does not know where it is. "No clue," he said yesterday. The Royals won their only title in 1985, but the team said it did not have the ball from the final out. The Mets, who won the next year, do not have that ball, either. The ball from the Los Angeles Dodgers' last championship, in 1988, belongs to Fred Claire, who was their general manager. Rick Dempsey had promised Claire that if he signed him as a backup catcher, he would catch the final out of the World Series and give Claire the ball. That is exactly what happened. Dempsey said he hoped Mientkiewicz would not sell the ball. "It may be a priceless item, but who cares about the money?" Dempsey said yesterday. "It's a memory that will go to your deathbed with you." Todd Benzinger, a first baseman for the 1990 Cincinnati Reds, said he still had the final ball from that year's World Series in an old equipment bag. Benzinger, who also played for Boston, said the Red Sox should buy the ball from Mientkiewicz. "If the Red Sox really want it that bad, then pay for it," he said. "It's just a ball." Mientkiewicz's plight amused Darin Erstad, who caught the last out of the 2002 World Series for the Anaheim Angels. That ball secured the only title in Angels history, but as soon as he reached the mound from center field, Erstad tried to unload it. He offered it to closer Troy Percival, following his routine after games Percival saved. Percival told Erstad to keep it. Erstad did not know what to do with it and does not display it. "It's in a box," Erstad said yesterday, and he did not mean a safe deposit box. "If the Angels asked for it, I'd give it to them in a heartbeat." Alas, after 86 years, it might not be so easy for the Red Sox. ****** My own take on this is that not only does the ball not belong to him, it probably doesn't belong to the Sox either but to MLB.

Time for bed I guess although I'll be up another hour for sure. It IS the weekend.

I doubt these are taken from the JRVGs because these were remastered by Rudy in the US while these are probably just upgrades of what Japan did in the 90s. I have all of these in some form or another so I don't think I'll be buying any but if I didn't have them I would certainly jump on them. I'm really not sure, as Hans is, of the hostility unless it's because everybody has already seen these and wishes that others were issued in their place.

I actually don't have the BN material but I do have the Sunday Afternoon at Smalls Paradise. Voila!

Dusty Groove (the you-know-whats) has this listed. Any views?

Actually that article is a little bit weird because by 1950 it was old news but maybe it was just penetrating there.

Whatcha drinkin'? I can't say I'm happy what I'm doing at my job but is sure does help pay for my jazz habit

When you're making $3.4, yup, that's better than any money a ball could bring you. On the benefit side, if you get rid of Millar, you're getting rid of some important chemistry there. Not sure I'd part with him.

I actually find them pretty useful but it also depends who's writing them. Ira Gitler is a must read. The music is good but the liner notes should try to tell you about what the musicians are doing.

Why would he worry about sticking with the club. He's going to make a fortune on the ball. Plus, doesn't he want to get more playing time, which the Sox probably won't give him.

Man, you guys freaked this cat out. Oops, forget I said cat.

Moose, hope it gets better. I suffer from tinnitis although it's gotten better. When I first got it a year ago and couldn't sleep, couldn't concentrate, I was about ready to take the pipe. I was close to checking out. To help me get to sleep, I was taking Xanax and Benadryl, which at least got me about 3-4 hours a night. Eventually, one of my Drs. told me to get a life and that changed my outlook. I generally sleep better and have only had to take Xanax or benadryl a couple of times. But I get tired easily and it can really wear you down.

Man, that price is a little extreme. Nice magazines maybe worth, what, $60 or 70.

Let's try to encourage people (especially young ones) to become jazz fans and join this board, not discourage.

Man, you're quick. I see that it's Walter Bishop doing the narration. It's some very weird poetry, maybe half tongue in cheek.

Geniuses doesn't necessarily equate to a well adjusted person.

I'm not sure this is the right place for this but when I was driving home tonight, the host on WKCR was playing a song by somebody doing a very good imitation of Bird on Star Eyes, featuring some trumpet, which was then followed by on the same track a poem about Bird where every line rhymed. It was very strange. Then the track or record continued with again some good Bird imitation and then a poem that started talking off about Max and seguing into bebop. I never knew found out who did it. Does this ring bells with anybody?

Wow! This is news to me but I will not let them run down very low. Seems very strange however.

Excellent suggestion Weizen. I would love that too.

Jim, I've heard of him but never heard him so I'm taking your list and will be checking it out. I already have a bead on the Monk cd.

What I find amazing about this thread and I give Jim all the credit for planting the idea is the amount of names that I don't recognize whereas with the altoists there were none that I didn't. More wealth to uncover and listen to.

Hang in there is right. My thoughts are with you. As a recent (one year) sufferer of tinnitis and a chronic back sufferer, I can tell you getting old is no fun.

In light of the discussion on the Wes and Grant thread, I thought this thread might be overdue. I also believe Jim R mentioned that there are a lot of other guitarists that are worthy of mention so here goes. Two that come to mind for me are Joe Puma and Billy Bauer, although probably less overlooked than Joe Puma. I recently listened to Joe Puma on Webster Young's For Lady. I also have Eddie Bert's Encore and was suitably impressed at the time by his contributions. He's not flashy but I like his style.

I saw that those were part of his discography and you're correct that they haven't been reissued. It would be nice to listen to. I wonder why he didn't record more.

Earlier in this thread somebody mentioned the Webster Young cd "For Lady". This is apparently the only session he led and it's a pretty remarkable cd. There's top playing throughout with Webster Young and Paul Quinichette backing up each other admirably. The rhythm section is top notch Mal Waldron, Joe Puma, Earl May and Ed Thigpen. Webster plays both with and without mute. They do a rendition of Strange Fruit that is quite haunting with Ed Thigpen doing a drum roll to simulate an executioner. Webster Young is a very lyrical moving player and it's a pity he didn't record more. This is a must pickup in my view.