Guy Berger

How did it sound as a performance, Chuck? (If you don't mind me asking, of course!)

Sorry, will correct the original post!

Amazing that someone can cite the Crouch piece without irony in 2014. Amazing.

I decided to put this here instead of in the main ECM thread because I'm guessing the interest will be more general - but in January, ECM will be releasing a 2013 live recording of a quintet with Jack, Muhal Richard Abrams, Roscoe Mitchell, Henry Threadgill and Richard Larry Gray as a 50th anniversary tribute to the AACM (with compositions by Jack, Muhal, Roscoe, Henry as well as some collective improv). It's live so some of Manfred Eicher's more controversial production choices should be less less disruptive, I'm guessing.

I'll have to explore the posthumous TC releases at some point - I have only the Knitting Factory box. Sky Piece is magnificent and Night Bird Song is not far behind.

David, I generally enjoy reading your contributions here and have nothing against you personally - but either you misunderstood what I meant by "leading edge", or you're completely nuts!

****** T H I S ****** Also, if Miles was terribly unhappy with Coltrane's playing in the spring of 1960, why did he invite him back to play on Someday My Prince Will Come? Looks like Miles, all his life, saw where the leading edge was and reacted against it. Bop, Parker? Miles invented a contrary modern jazz, birth of the cool. Hard bop, with its soul and little big bands? Miles' contrary music was the Gil Evans works on the one hand, his evolving quintet, including the radical Trane, on the other hand. Was Ornette's freedom now the leading edge? Folks, here are modes, easier for your digestion. Yet in spite of Miles' nastiness toward Ornette, Miles' quintet, as Hancock pointed out, evolved to become Ornettelike. The subsequent years of fusion adventures, nearing half of his musical life, were a retreat of sorts. Leading, retreating, so what. He played a lot of the best music ever. John, agreed with everything you said... up until the 'subsequent years of fusion adventures' being a 'retreat'. You could make a pretty strong case that 1969-1975 was about as far out on the leading edge as MD ever got. Also wanted to highlight this great observation by Jeff! Obviously it's a matter of taste whether someone prefers Cannonball or Coltrane on the 1958-59 recordings. But it's pretty clear who *Miles* preferred as a ballad player - only one saxophonist plays on "Blue in Green".

I'm glad we have the Stitt stuff - it's always nice to have variety. But put me on team Coltrane.

Very cool. Thank you!

Amazing album (though not necessarily my fave Coltrane). Thank you John.

If I had to grab two Jackies, it would definitely be Let Freedom Ring and, depending on my mood, either Right Now or One Step Beyond.

Potter has a new one coming out on ECM in January - Imaginary Cities - with Craig Taborn, Adam Rogers, Steve Nelson, Scott Colley, Nate Smith, Fima Ephron, and a string quartet (including Mark Feldman).

No; there'll always be neo-jazz. MG So what is the cutoff year for "real jazz" then? If all new musicians play "neo-jazz" then that means at some point the original version ceased to exist and has been replaced by a facsimile. What year did that happen out of curiosity? 1994 OK, a word of explanation. When creative jazz ceases to command the enthusiasm of youth in the ghetto, the supply of talent dries up. Not that white musicians can't or haven't made fine contributions to the development of jazz, but the thrust has always come from the ghetto. Without that thrust the music is something else. The extent to which creative jazz engages the enthusiasm of young people in the ghetto can be seen in the jazz albums that make the R&B album charts. So, this little lot made the R&B charts in 1994. Kenny G - Miracles: the holiday album Us 3 - Hand on the torch Al Jarreau - Tenderness David Sanborn - Hear say David Benoit & Russ Freeman - Benoit/Freeman project Norman Brown - After the storm Gerald Albright - Smooth Najee - Share my world Bob James - Restless George Howard - A home far awy Paul Hardcastle - Harcastle Russ Freeman - Sahara Diane Reeves - Art & survival Everett Harp - Common ground Incognito - Positivity Jonathan Butler - Head to head Miki Howard - Miki sings Billie Nancy Wilson - Love Nancy Phil Perry - Pure pleasure Tom Scott - Reed my lips MG Revisiting... but why are you so sure these recordings were engaging "young people"?

"We're Reaching the Bottom of the Barrel" Day?

I like the sideman appearances mentioned here, but they also go to showcase that Jackie brought a real vision to his leader dates. Can't say that about all of his contemporaries.

I like them fine and am glad they exist, but they don't speak to me the way the BNs do. But I do think Big Beat Steve's point is well-taken: our listening is framed by the conventional wisdom.

Lon, this one? I want to make sure I don't get a CD-R by accident.

I've been making my way through the Stones catalogue this year, based on that superb guide Hans posted a while back. Have made it as far as Between the Buttons. (Before this "adventure" I just had Hot Rocks - it's amazing how much great music that collection omitted!) Some quick thoughts - at least through 1966, the Stones were nowhere nearly as good as the Beatles at producing consistently-high-quality albums (though the Stones singles by this point were almost uniformly excellent). Aftermath gets accolades, but my sense is that it's pretty uneven - a combination of absolutely brilliant, not-to-be-missed material ("Under My Thumb", "Out of Time", "Mother's Little Helper") and filler (especially the blues jam). Maybe my expectations were too high coming into it. I'm with Paul Secor on Between the Buttons - it's quite good, as long as you don't worry too much about what a Stones album "should sound like".

Tim, this is very exciting! Are you going to be recording any more sideman dates for ECM? The Rub and Spare Change and Prezens were fantastic!

I'm really embarrassed to say, as a big Wayne fan, that I have not yet heard Odyssey of Iska. Et Cetera is a must hear if you're into the label's edgier mid-60s post-bop recordings.

You know, it's funny - this thread prompted me to dig out this recording. It will never be a real favorite, just because I'm not crazy about this genre of piano trios, but it's a very enjoyable listening experience.

My appreciation for Chicago-era Sun Ra grew significantly as I became a more seasoned jazz listener (just describing my own experience). The music's merits were less obvious to me early on than those of, say, ATLANTIS.

Good call. I really like Friedman's early/mid 60s playing.

I like those recordings, don't love 'em - but I would add that I generally prefer them to the other BE stuff I've heard as a leader. I tend to prefer his musical offspring (Herbie, Chick, Keith). FWIW, Paul Motian said he and Gary Peacock quit to join Paul Bley because they found the music to be too restrained - but that was in reference to the stuff BE was doing in 1963, not to what he was performing at the VV in 1961.

One of these days I'll make Scott D happy and listened to Radio KAOS, but Pros & Cons of Hitch-hiking is a serious contender for the worst album I have ever heard.