Charles Mingus

[Hot Ptah]

The thing is, though, that Mingus went into those sessions knowing that he would record more than he would use. The original albums reflected his conception of how they should sound. The expanded "Mingus Ah Um," which I also have, simply doesn't have the same pacing as the original. I'm glad the full length performances are out there, but I feel they should supplement Mingus's original albums rather than replace them, IMHO.

I agree.

I prefer the edited Mingus Ah Um, in the form originally released. To me, the performances lose momentum and tension in their expanded versions--some of the magic is lost. I found a CD issue of the original Mingus Ah Um, without the expansion, at a used store last year, and was glad to buy it.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Hot Ptah

[sidewinder]

'Mingus Moves' is very under-rated, IMO.

I like the 'Pre-Bird' too..

[felser]

I spin Pre-Bird quite a bit as far as the Ming goes. The Uptown collection is indeed fascinating.

Seems like the band w/ Bobby Jones represented on the America LPs doesn't get much love. I like that group a lot also.

With you there. And I can't figure out for the life of me why Mingus cut off "Love is a Dangerous Necessity" just as Eddie Preston was cooking. Really like McPherson on those sides. And Byard and Richmond are Byard and Richmond.

[clifford_thornton]

Mingus is Mingus!

Anybody familiar with the Bobby Jones LPs on Cobblestone and Enja?

[AllenLowe]

yes Bobby Jones! Years ago I saw Mingus somewhere and Jones was practically falling down - Mingus announces into the microphone:

"It says something about America when I have to play with a drunken white saxophone player."

[jazzbo]

Jones' Enja is excellent. I haven't heard any other leader dates.

[king ubu]

Jones' Enja is excellent. I haven't heard any other leader dates.

Oh yes, same here - the Enja is great! But I never went looking for other discs of his, for whatever reason (there's so goddam much to search for, after all...)

Freddie Waits is the drummer there... and Jones blows some beautiful clarinet, in addition to his tenor.

At some spots, it sounds like an updated (mingus-ized?) version of the Jimmy Giuffre Three... it's rootsy more in a folksy than a bluesy kind of way (and after all, rural folk - and blues of course - is often more "rootsy" and seems more honest about that than cool urban hardbop blues, no?)

[AllenLowe]

there's an early 1940s Red Nichols band that has a tenor player named Bobby Jones who is strikingly advanced - out of Prez but very pre-boppish. Amazing player. However I've been told it's not him - though I am not convinced.

Edited November 3, 2009 by AllenLowe

[clifford_thornton]

"It says something about America when I have to play with a drunken white saxophone player."

Well they played together in France too... I think the Bobby Jones who played with Mingus was a little too young in the 70s to have played on some 40s Red Nichols sides, but that's just my guess.

[Chuck Nessa]

Not the same guy.

[felser]

Mingus is Mingus!

Anybody familiar with the Bobby Jones LPs on Cobblestone and Enja?

The ENJA is much better than the Cobblestone, which has too many poorly done period touches (it came out in the very early 70's). I remember the ENJA being good rather than great, but the Cobblestone isn't even that. That being said, I did like Jones with Mingus. Apparently, if memory serves correctly, Jones had always dreamed of playing with Mingus, and campaigned tirelessly for the chance. Guess it's a case of be careful what you wish for. Always think of the story of Mingus knocking out Jimmy Knepper's teeth or whatever, and of the humiliation of the band on the Monterey/UCLA recordings. And of what poor Jane Getz (underrated pianist in my book, the little I heard of her) apparently went through with him.

[AllenLowe]

what happened with Jane Getz?

[clifford_thornton]

I believe she recorded at least one folk LP for Verve Forecast (or Verve Folkways). Dunno otherwise.

She's also on this Victor LP. In case you were wondering what happened to Jaime Faunt, he's on it too.

Edit again: here is her myspace.

Edited November 3, 2009 by clifford_thornton

[AllenLowe]

just watched her on you tube - real bebopper.

[Mark Stryker]

Late to the party, but if I had to pick five, here they are in the basic order in which I find myself listening to them:

1. Let My Children Hear Music

2. Black Saint and the Sinner Lady

3. Changes One (plus first side of Changes Two)

4. Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus

5. Mingus Ah Um

I too have great affection for the Adams-Pullen band and, from this distance, having never heard Mingus live, I might well choose that band as my favorite. There's just something very special about the combination of some of Mingus' most compelling material, the chemistry with those individual personalities, Mingus' maturity and the particular sort of balance of freedom and discipline. That's a band that truly breathes as one. Loose but super locked-in and never spilling over into sloppy.

Also for what it's worth, I would probably listen to Black Saint and Changes more than Let My Children (as great as it is), but the latter is my wife's favorite so it gets the most spins at home. I consider myself fortunate to be married to a Mingus fan.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Mark Stryker

[clifford_thornton]

I consider myself fortunate to be married to a Mingus fan.

Would that we were all so lucky. I seem to turn my girlfriends onto, then off of, the very same music.

[brownie]

just to put in a word for the stuff he did with John LaPorta in the 1950s - and for which LaPorta should get great credit for helping to organize (I always felt Mingus had the need to downplay his associations with white progressive musicians of the 1950s like LaPorta, Teo Macero, Paul Bley). Listen to Elegy For Rudy Williams - gorgeous stuff.

The good people at Lonehill released this double CD set which includes material which was never issued previously.

[Niko]

The good people at Lonehill released this double CD set which includes material which was never issued previously.

can be streamed here or here at least in some parts of the world, second link is less convenient but probably more international...

heard these for the first time last week - had expected them to be good, but not that good! especially those quartets with barry galbraith...

Edited November 4, 2009 by Niko

[AllenLowe]

I like LaPorta a lot; if you haven't seen it, pick up his autobiography.

I got to know him a little bit around the year 2000; he still played great.

I asked him whatever happened to Wally Cirillo: "He died from the first Swine Flu vaccine."

Edited November 4, 2009 by AllenLowe

[J.A.W.]

I saw the Walrath/Adams band a number of times - once, even in Springfield Illinois!

Walrath was always interesting but sometimes Adams bugged me 'cause he seemed to throw the "hot switch" all will and it all wound up sounding the same.

edit for punctuation.

Saw Walrath/Adams with Mingus in the Netherlands in the very hot European summer of 1976, and as far as I remember Adams was pretty restrained at the time.

Make that 1975 (the summer was still very hot ). I saw them at the Hammerveld Jazz Festival, Roermond, Netherlands. Walrath is missing from this picture:

(photo: Nederlands Instituut voor Beeld en Geluid)

Edited November 4, 2009 by J.A.W.

[felser]

just to put in a word for the stuff he did with John LaPorta in the 1950s - and for which LaPorta should get great credit for helping to organize (I always felt Mingus had the need to downplay his associations with white progressive musicians of the 1950s like LaPorta, Teo Macero, Paul Bley). Listen to Elegy For Rudy Williams - gorgeous stuff.

The good people at Lonehill released this double CD set which includes material which was never issued previously.

How did Lonehill come across unissued material? From reading the threads on the board, I thought they just did redo's of stuff from previous commercial sources?

[Mark Stryker]

I saw the Walrath/Adams band a number of times - once, even in Springfield Illinois!

Walrath was always interesting but sometimes Adams bugged me 'cause he seemed to throw the "hot switch" alt will and it all wound up sounding the same.

edit for punctuation.

On one of those sweeps through Illinois, that band played Champaign-Urbana, and the Chicago bassist Kelly Sill, a student at the University of Illinois in those days, once told me a story about how Mingus was in Chicago with a night off before the C-U gig so he called the club to find out who was playing and learned that it was the Memphis Nighthawks, which was a '20s style hot-band that was getting some attention at the time with Ron DeWar on soprano and clarinet and the late Steve Jensen on trumpet. http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Lips-Memphis-Ni...8298&sr=1-1

I wish I could remember all the details of the story, but the highlights include the fact that Mingus drove down that day, loved the group, accidentally started a fire at his table and ended up dancing with pianist Kelly Brand (now Kelly Sill's wife).

Edited November 4, 2009 by Mark Stryker

[jazzbo]

just to put in a word for the stuff he did with John LaPorta in the 1950s - and for which LaPorta should get great credit for helping to organize (I always felt Mingus had the need to downplay his associations with white progressive musicians of the 1950s like LaPorta, Teo Macero, Paul Bley). Listen to Elegy For Rudy Williams - gorgeous stuff.

The good people at Lonehill released this double CD set which includes material which was never issued previously.

How did Lonehill come across unissued material? From reading the threads on the board, I thought they just did redo's of stuff from previous commercial sources?

I don't know, but that's a great two cd set.

[Chas]

I like LaPorta a lot; if you haven't seen it, pick up his autobiography.

I got to know him a little bit around the year 2000; he still played great.

I asked him whatever happened to Wally Cirillo: "He died from the first Swine Flu vaccine."

That's a real shame . Back when that happened (1977) , Cirillo was only 50 years old . He was still playing and composing , and had recorded with Joe Diorio in Florida .

[king ubu]

just to put in a word for the stuff he did with John LaPorta in the 1950s - and for which LaPorta should get great credit for helping to organize (I always felt Mingus had the need to downplay his associations with white progressive musicians of the 1950s like LaPorta, Teo Macero, Paul Bley). Listen to Elegy For Rudy Williams - gorgeous stuff.

The good people at Lonehill released this double CD set which includes material which was never issued previously.

How did Lonehill come across unissued material? From reading the threads on the board, I thought they just did redo's of stuff from previous commercial sources?

I don't know, but that's a great two cd set.

Yes, excellent! But in my opinion, it would have been better (less pirate-like) if they'd omitted some of the "bonus tracks" on disc two (mainly the Fantasy session that's part of the excellent "Theme and Variations" twofer CD, which contains a fine unreleased date that you'll miss if you stick to the Lonehill).