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[kinuta]

3 hours ago, GA Russell said:

Kinuta, I was taught as a boy that the Maginot Line was a great failure.  But not long ago I read that it was a great success, and that the Germans entered France where the Maginot Line did not exist.

One aspect that I know very little about is the Vichy government.  Specifically, what is it that the critics of Vichy think they should have done or not done?  I'm not aware of them having any ability to tell the Germans "No" to anything the Germans demanded.  France was a conquered country, right?

With your English background, what were you taught about that?

We were taught nothing. Our history lessons barely touched on the 20th century or even the 19th century.

I entered secondary school at the age of 11, in 1957, meaning that WW2 was very recent history, 12 years being the mere blink of an eye. More amazingly still, we were taught nothing of The Great War 1914-1918, the single event that transformed Europe.

Everything I know has been self taught. A French person might know more about the Vichy govt.

As far as I can see the Vichy govt. was a pure puppet of Germany and had zero credibility or independent decision making power.

The role of the Maginot line is covered in the book. It did nothing to stop the German attack as they never made a direct assault on it apart from one unsuccessful assault at the northern end of the line. No further efforts were needed as the French army was defeated in other parts of the country resulting in surrender.

Edited April 20, 2019 by kinuta

[soulpope]

2 minutes ago, kinuta said:

The role of the Maginot .... it did nothing to stop the German attack as they never made a direct assault on it. 

True .... Germans invaded France from the north (and not as envisaged from the east) ....

[kinuta]

8 minutes ago, soulpope said:

True .... Germans invaded France from the north (and not as envisaged from the east) ....

True, but the crucial assault was through the Ardennes.

[soulpope]

1 hour ago, kinuta said:

True, but the crucial assault was through the Ardennes.

Yep .... this was meant with "north" (as Belgium was neutral there was no way earlier to extend the Maginot) .....

[Brad]

2 hours ago, kinuta said:

As far as I can see the Vichy govt. was a pure puppet of Germany and had zero credibility or independent decision making power.

There is a difference between going along and being an active participant; that's why Laval was executed and Petain sentenced to death (although the sentence was not carried out). In addition, Vichy remained in control of its colonies in North Africa and the Middle East; they fought the Allies and had to be actively subdued. 

[Larry Kart]

2 hours ago, kinuta said:

We were taught nothing. Our history lessons barely touched on the 20th century or even the 19th century.

I entered secondary school at the age of 11, in 1957, meaning that WW2 was very recent history, 12 years being the mere blink of an eye. More amazingly still, we were taught nothing of The Great War 1914-1918, the single event that transformed Europe.

Everything I know has been self taught. A French person might know more about the Vichy govt.

As far as I can see the Vichy govt. was a pure puppet of Germany and had zero credibility or independent decision making power.

The role of the Maginot line is covered in the book. It did nothing to stop the German attack as they never made a direct assault on it apart from one unsuccessful assault at the northern end of the line. No further efforts were needed as the French army was defeated in other parts of the country resulting in surrender.

"As far as I can see the Vichy govt. was a pure puppet of Germany and had zero credibility or independent decision making power."

 Tainted as it was by links to Nazi Germany, that government was in tune with deep strains in French society, ones that still vigorously exist.

[Big Beat Steve]

15 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

"As far as I can see the Vichy govt. was a pure puppet of Germany and had zero credibility or independent decision making power."

 Tainted as it was by links to Nazi Germany, that government was in tune with deep strains in French society, ones that still vigorously exist.

Indeed ... I am no expert on this but have snapped up information here and there (as chronicled by French and German historians). It is true that there was not so small a part of French society that embraced what VIchy stood for (without being pleased by the defeat against Germany, of course, but still ...).

As an aside and of added interest to those interested in this part of French history within the KEY area of interest of THIS forum, may I recommend for further reading:

"Jazz et société sous l'Occupation" by Gérard Régnier (Ed.L'Harmattan, 2009).

[Larry Kart]

5 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Indeed ... I am no expert on this but have snapped up information here and there (as chronicled by French and German historians). It is true that there was not so small a part of French society that embraced what VIchy stood for (without being pleased by the defeat against Germany, of course, but still ...).

As an aside and of added interest to those interested in this part of French history within the KEY area of interest of THIS forum, may I recommend for further reading:

"Jazz et société sous l'Occupation" by Gérard Régnier (Ed.L'Harmattan, 2009).

An enlightening, highly detailed book is Robert Gildea's "Marianne in Chains: Daily Life in the Heart of France During the German Occupation" (Metropolitan Books, 2003).

[medjuck]

8 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

An enlightening, highly detailed book is Robert Gildea's "Marianne in Chains: Daily Life in the Heart of France During the German Occupation" (Metropolitan Books, 2003).

Do you think Alan Furst's books capture it well? 

Edited April 21, 2019 by medjuck

[Larry Kart]

12 hours ago, medjuck said:

Do you think Alan Furst's books capture it well? 

I'm a big fan of Furst -- the early books up through "The Polish Officer" more than the ones set in France, as entertaining as those books are -- but no, I don't think that he captures the reality of the Vichy regime and the Occupation that well. For one thing IIRC his later books are mostly Paris-centric, and the social-political realities of Vichy France and the Occupation -- in terms of what the French did and did not do, how they adjusted to, accommodated to, etc. the Vichy regime and the Germans -- IIRC are just not his focus.

From the jacket blurb for Gildea's book: 

"In France, the German occupation is called simply the 'dark years.' It is remembered as a time of hunger, fear, cold, and the absence of freedom, when the French population was cruelly and consistently oppressed by the enemy. There were only the  'good French' who resisted and the bad French' who collaborated. Marianne in Chains ... uncovers a very different story, one in which the truth is more complex and humane.

"...Gildea reveal everyday life in the heart of France. He describes the pressing imperatives of work, food, transportation, and family obligations that led to unavoidable compromise and negotiation with the army of occupation. In the process, he sheds light on such subjects as forced labor, the role of the Catholic Church, the 'horizontal collaboration' between French women and German soldiers, and most surprising, the ambivalent attitude of ordinary people toward the Resistance, which was often dismissed as a bunch of bandits who were militarily irrelevant."

Further, and strikingly IMO, Gildea delves into the intense post-war French myth-making about who did what during the time of Vichy and the occupation and why. "[After June 1944] the gospel of Resistance and Liberation was already overlaying the complexities of the Occupation, and it would be a long time before [one might say, if ever -- even to this day]  all the truths were out."

[Guy Berger]

On 4/20/2019 at 6:08 AM, Brad said:

There is a difference between going along and being an active participant; that's why Laval was executed and Petain sentenced to death (although the sentence was not carried out). In addition, Vichy remained in control of its colonies in North Africa and the Middle East; they fought the Allies and had to be actively subdued. 

Per what @Brad and @Larry Kart said, the legacy is simultaneously more nuanced and more ugly than merely going along.  The Vichy gov't had its own policy priorities and had some leeway to defy and/or supplement German initiatives when it wished to do so.  They (or at least many of them) viewed murdering of Jews as a feature, not a bug, of Nazi domination - hence much of the subsequent revulsion and shame.

Also, the early Furst books *are* highly recommended if you like high quality fiction.

Edited April 21, 2019 by Guy Berger

[Brad]

I have never read the Furst books so will need to check them out. 

In a slightly different vein, the French TV series A French Village, which details like in a fictional French village during Vichy, appears to be good; I started watching it recently.  It’s on Hulu.  I believe I read that it was a big hit in France. 

Edited April 21, 2019 by Brad

[T.D.]

Posthumous, definitely the last in the Bernie Gunther series.

[kinuta]

Second book in this series. Seriously gripping and atmospheric police procedural.

[Coda]

I'm not back in college, just pretending.  This book is packed with examples, formulas, how-to's, etc.   I am trying to predict how much a customer is willing to pay for a product in the future.  The book is thick, the print is small, and the only pictures are of spreadsheets.

[ghost of miles]

BillF and other UKers, I just got a used copy of this—haven’t started it yet, but thought it might resonate with you: 

[kinuta]

Third book in the DCI Stone & DS Oliver trilogy.

The previous two are great and well recommended.

[sidewinder]

6 hours ago, ghost of miles said:

BillF and other UKers, I just got a used copy of this—haven’t started it yet, but thought it might resonate with you: 

Never read these but will look at checking them out. The second novel had the most profile over here, back in the 1980s during the ‘jazz boom’.

An unlikely combination of Bowie, Patsy Kensit, Gil Evans and Mingus (not forgetting the then London resident, Slim! ).

[mjazzg]

9 hours ago, ghost of miles said:

BillF and other UKers, I just got a used copy of this—haven’t started it yet, but thought it might resonate with you: 

I bought that same edition a few years back. I had always wanted to investigate the novels as they have such a strong place in the city's cultural history.

I struggled with the language of race in the first one and gave up. I often feel I should have persevered.

I'll be  interested to hear what you make of them.

3 hours ago, sidewinder said:

Never read these but will look at checking them out. The second novel had the most profile over here, back in the 1980s during the ‘jazz boom’.

An unlikely combination of Bowie, Patsy Kensit, Gil Evans and Mingus (not forgetting the then London resident, Slim! ).

That was a right dog's breakfast. I saw it at the cinema. I remember the times well, coincided with my early years in London (Bar Italia!) and my early explorations of Jazz. Happy days indeed.

[sidewinder]

2 hours ago, mjazzg said:

That was a right dog's breakfast. I saw it at the cinema. I remember the times well, coincided with my early years in London (Bar Italia!) and my early explorations of Jazz. Happy days indeed.

I associate this one with around the time that Sade got to number 1 and jazz as background music in wine bars was ‘hip’.

I think I only ever saw the film on TV and fell asleep.

[JSngry]

The Match by Colson Whitehead

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/04/01/the-match

short story excerpted from an upcoming novel. can't recall the last time i read a "new" novel, but if this is any indication of the quality of writing, i might read this one.

[jlhoots]

Pitchaya Sudbanthad: Bangkok Wakes To Rain

[kinuta]

After hearing Dr Citino's brilliant lecture I had to read this immediately.

[medjuck]

On 4/4/2019 at 10:59 AM, ghost of miles said:

Does it include the infamous Philippe stories?

Just the first one. This must be only semi legal: I'm pretty sure that most of his work is not pd yet. 

[Brad]