Name some Prestige CDs you find underrated

[Larry Kart]

Talking about those trombonists and their stylistic subtlety (or non-subtlety), where would Bill Harris fit in, then?

I have read contemporary (50s) sources (jazz mags/books) where his playing is described as "vulgar".

How about that? How would such a judgment come about, comparatively speaking?

(Note that I am not judging, just quoting )

I'm a big Bill Harris fan. By J.J. standards his tone and phrasing might have seemed rather blatant to some back then, but his tonal variety, melodic imagination, and rhythmic drive and subtlety were superb. Hear "Bijou" for example. Great post on Harris on the blog of Phil Woods' former bassist. Search for it; it was mentioned and linked to on Organissimo recently.

[clifford_thornton]

yeah I read that post, definitely made me want to seek out more of his music.

[Big Beat Steve]

@Larry Kart:

:)

As it happens, I am just listening to Woody Herman's First Herd (that news item about the discovery of that Franklin expedition shipwreck made me want to spin "Northwest Passage" again ) and in fact the last tune that just came up was "Bijou" (before I saw your post). For all the qualities you mention in that solo, by certain yardsticks, some of Harris' solo there may indeed be considered not that tonally "delicate" compared to other players of the time (relatively speaking), so I do see the point some may have made back then and your explanation makes sense.

In fact some of those "vulgar" comments may have been related to JATP appearances of his where he may have gone all out even a bit more (I don't really recall).

Anyway, thanks for your asessment.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Big Beat Steve

[king ubu]

Harris "vulgar"? Pretty ridiculous!

[Big Beat Steve]

Like I said, it was a quote and certainly needs to be seen in the context of its times. Just because it is often interesting to see how some initial judgments come about. They say a lot about the impact certain musicians had at the time. No matter what judgment posterity eventually settles on.

Hence my question.

[sidewinder]

How about...

[Big Beat Steve]

O.K., I'll throw a hat in the ring too.

One (early) Prestige artist that seems to have been bypassed consistently in vinyl times was JOE HOLIDAY (and this despite very comprehensive Prestige reissue programs through the decades). And offhand I am only aware of a Fresh Sound CD that couples some of his Prestige recordigns with his Decca LP.

From what I have heard I find his recordings quite intriguing (including his jazz-cum-latin excursions).

Maybe his style just wasn't fashionable enough on its own terms in the jazz periods that followed but surely he deserved a bit more reissue "rating" than being ignored totally?

[king ubu]

Like I said, it was a quote and certainly needs to be seen in the context of its times. Just because it is often interesting to see how some initial judgments come about. They say a lot about the impact certain musicians had at the time. No matter what judgment posterity eventually settles on.

Hence my question.

I know! Still, pre-J.J., Harris was one of the most musically refined. Maybe not timbre and phrasing-wise, but if that keeps you (impersonal "you" - not you, Steve!) from hearing all his great ideas and his advanced style, well, your loss!

And I also agree with the sentiment above that Fuller at least early on had a tonal quality pretty different from Johnson's, much bigger sound and more of that typical 'bonish slightly awkward delivery, which Johnson got rid off (Winding didn't, to my ears - he often sounds like a hack next to Johnson, at least to my ears, but I don't know their recordings all that well yet, so my judgement may be off and/or may change).

But some of those guys Larry mentioned, most notably Teagarden, probably were technically further evolved than some of the early modern jazzers, I assume? Can't quite judge that myself as I don't know how to play the trombone (or any brass instrument), but aural impression makes me think so.

[Chuck Nessa]

O.K., I'll throw a hat in the ring too.

One (early) Prestige artist that seems to have been bypassed consistently in vinyl times was JOE HOLIDAY (and this despite very comprehensive Prestige reissue programs through the decades). And offhand I am only aware of a Fresh Sound CD that couples some of his Prestige recordigns with his Decca LP.

From what I have heard I find his recordings quite intriguing (including his jazz-cum-latin excursions).

Maybe his style just wasn't fashionable enough on its own terms in the jazz periods that followed but surely he deserved a bit more reissue "rating" than being ignored totally?

I have this OJC cd - 23 tracks in all:

[Larry Kart]

Excellent essay about Bill Harris from bassist Steve Wallace's blog:

http://wallacebass.com/?p=2565

@Larry Kart:

:)

As it happens, I am just listening to Woody Herman's First Herd (that news item about the discovery of that Franklin expedition shipwreck made me want to spin "Northwest Passage" again ) and in fact the last tune that just came up was "Bijou" (before I saw your post). For all the qualities you mention in that solo, by certain yardsticks, some of Harris' solo there may indeed be considered not that tonally "delicate" compared to other players of the time (relatively speaking), so I do see the point some may have made back then and your explanation makes sense.

In fact some of those "vulgar" comments may have been related to JATP appearances of his where he may have gone all out even a bit more (I don't really recall).

Anyway, thanks for your asessment.

Now a JATP trombonist who arguably could be pretty vulgar was Tommy Turk.

Solo begins at about at the 3:05 mark and includes some notable farts toward (so to speak) the tail end.

[gmonahan]

yeah I read that post, definitely made me want to seek out more of his music.

That won't be very difficult. He doesn't seem to have recorded much outside of the Herman band. One album ("Bill Harris and Friends") plus a session or two on Keynote and some live stuff. The Spanish pirates put most of his studio things together on a 2-cd set.

gregmo

[king ubu]

There are two fine volumes of live music by the Ventura/Harris band on Highnote ... and there's one of those Baldwin Street/Devil's Music thingies, too - some *great* stuff there, "Live at Birdland" (that's the CD's title, too) from 1952 with Lockjaw (one date) and Ray Abrams (two) on tenor, the final one has Horace Silver and Chubby Jackson, too, Ed Shaughnessy's on drums all the way. As a bonus you get some Keynote sides (from 1945/46).

[JSngry]

Bill Harris, not so much vulgar as eloquently lubricatedly rudely wry. In the best possible way. The kind of guy who could make a totally obscene joke in mixed company without using any foul language and have the society matrons laughing and calling him a wicked cad and all that and then excuse himself to go have another taste. Not that he was that kind of guy, I don't know. But his playing very much makes it seem to me that he was like that kind of guy. Smart, sophisticated, eloquent, common touch always to the forefront, and generally high - and highly functional.

Pretty rare quality, really, one to be treasured.

[paul secor]

As I recall, Bill Harris was a somewhat overlooked figure (he was playing in Vegas by that time, I believe) when Roswell Rudd recorded Everywhere in late 1966 and made it a point to mention his love for Harris' playing in the liner notes.

Edited September 10, 2014 by paul secor

[clifford_thornton]

right, that was my first introduction to the name years ago, strangely didn't delve into those small group sides as a result.

[Big Beat Steve]

O.K., I'll throw a hat in the ring too.

One (early) Prestige artist that seems to have been bypassed consistently in vinyl times was JOE HOLIDAY (and this despite very comprehensive Prestige reissue programs through the decades). And offhand I am only aware of a Fresh Sound CD that couples some of his Prestige recordigns with his Decca LP.

From what I have heard I find his recordings quite intriguing (including his jazz-cum-latin excursions).

Maybe his style just wasn't fashionable enough on its own terms in the jazz periods that followed but surely he deserved a bit more reissue "rating" than being ignored totally?

I have this OJC cd - 23 tracks in all:

Thanks Chuck! Must search that out ... Apparently a CD that passed me by at the time it was released. TIme to be able to listen to this whenever you feel like it and not just via some original 10" somewhere else.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Big Beat Steve

[Joe]

Bill Harris was "da bomb." Sounds wonderful on the (overlooked, underrated, nearly invisible it seems) EX-HERMANITES date on Mode:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2PhNgQz7oc

http://www.amazon.com/The-Ex-Hermanites-Bill-Harris/dp/B00005K9WP#

[king ubu]

thx, was indeed unaware of that one!

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

O.K., I'll throw a hat in the ring too.

One (early) Prestige artist that seems to have been bypassed consistently in vinyl times was JOE HOLIDAY (and this despite very comprehensive Prestige reissue programs through the decades). And offhand I am only aware of a Fresh Sound CD that couples some of his Prestige recordigns with his Decca LP.

From what I have heard I find his recordings quite intriguing (including his jazz-cum-latin excursions).

Maybe his style just wasn't fashionable enough on its own terms in the jazz periods that followed but surely he deserved a bit more reissue "rating" than being ignored totally?

I have this OJC cd - 23 tracks in all:

Thanks Chuck! Must search that out ... Apparently a CD that passed me by at the time it was released. TIme to be able to listen to this whenever you feel like it and not just via some original 10" somewhere else.

Yes, it's very nice - I think with every track Holiday recorded as a leader for Prestige. A couple of 10" LPs and a couple of EPs.

And includes one of the early modern jazz organists - Jordin Fordin. Who WAS Jordin Fordin? A VERY different organist, certainly.

MG

[Larry Kart]

I heard Harris with Herman at the Blue Note in Chicago in 1955 or '56. He drove that band like crazy. IIRC Cy Touff was in that band, too. If so, quite a combination.

[gmonahan]

According to Wiki, Harris didn't die until 1973. Too bad he didn't record more. As others have remarked a lot more eloquently than I can, he had a very individual and interesting style. But, I imagine he made good money in Vegas, and I can't fault him for wanting a bit of stability and affluence!

gregmo

[Niko]

[... ] one of the early modern jazz organists - Jordin Fordin. Who WAS Jordin Fordin? A VERY different organist, certainly.

MG

it's not much, but, from Ira Gitlers liner notes for Babs Gonzalez - Weird Lullaby

"The first New York session is notable as Sonny Rollins' recording debut. The rest of the line-up is Jordan Fordin on alto, but only in the ensemble (Fordin, another Newarker, played organ on some Joe Holiday Prestige sessions in the early '50s)"

(typed and posted by ubu on another board)

Edited September 11, 2014 by Niko

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Oh, a sax man, too!

Well, evidently it wasn't a pseudonym - I really couldn't believe it was a real name when I got the Holiday CD.

Thanks Niko.

MG

[Big Beat Steve]

Well, I did find a copy of that OJC Joe Holiday CD on Amazon today so am looking forward to hearing more of him at leisure.

As for Bill Haris, that Ex-Hermanites LP on Mode is a gas indeed. Must pull it out again (though I must admit I used to listen to it not so much for the trombone part but rather for Terry Gibbs). BTW, for those who cannot locate a copy immediately, Xanadu LP 191 "The Bill Harris Memorial album" has the same contents.

BTW, a very nice characterization by JSangrey, that "eloquently rudely wry". Might explain after all why some came to call his style "vulgar" at the time.

And, Niko, thanks for the link to that Wother" forum! Wasn't aware they had a jazz forum there too. One to bookmark ...

Edited September 11, 2014 by Big Beat Steve

[Niko]

And, Niko, thanks for the link to that "other" forum! Wasn't aware they had a jazz forum there too. One to bookmark ...

just like any other board, it's not quite as active as it used to be, but it has been my "main forum" in recent years, not the deep jazz knowledge you have here, but still excellent discussions, and the politics section, discussion of record stores... and similar stuff are - obviously - closer to home...