Dan Gould Posted June 5, 2023 Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 I think we know what is referred to as "Tough Tenors" (separate from the album by Lockjaw and Griff, though it certainly fits) ... think Buddy Tate, Fathead, Arnett Cobb. But does anyone play a "tough" alto? I think of the influence of Bird, Benny Carter, Hodges and hesitate to think of anyone. Well, until yesterday when I listened to something newly acquired and said "that's a tough ... alto!" Comments/thoughts suggestions appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabshakeh Posted June 5, 2023 Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 53 minutes ago, Dan Gould said: Well, until yesterday when I listened to something newly acquired and said "that's a tough ... alto!" What was it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted June 5, 2023 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 23 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said: What was it? Trying to let a discussion start before I drop a name. He's not well known from what I can see but he has a small discography. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillF Posted June 5, 2023 Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 The toughest alto I've heard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 5, 2023 Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 Hank Crawford Maceo Parker Leo Wright Charles Williams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko Posted June 5, 2023 Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 Sonny Cox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlhoots Posted June 5, 2023 Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 John Zorn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhatta Posted June 5, 2023 Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 Earl Bostic was a monster. After a tough tenor duel (I guess by Arnett Cobb & Al Sears), the tough alto start blowing... Of the relatively younger generation that I have heard live, Bruce Williams and Abraham Burton seem to have an amazingly fat alto sound (when they were in good form). I don't know if that's the case these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted June 5, 2023 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 1 hour ago, JSngry said: Hank Crawford Maceo Parker Leo Wright Charles Williams You know I love Charles Williams but as good as he is on blues he isn't where I'm at on the concept. Crawford ... obviously great on blues but again ... maybe too sweet in tone? My first instinct when I saw your post was Jeez how could I forget Hank Crawford but as I think of it .. not so sure. 37 minutes ago, jlhoots said: John Zorn Not getting this at all ... too avant for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted June 5, 2023 Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 3 minutes ago, Dan Gould said: You know I love Charles Williams but as good as he is on blues he isn't where I'm at on the concept. Crawford ... obviously great on blues but again ... maybe too sweet in tone? My first instinct when I saw your post was Jeez how could I forget Hank Crawford but as I think of it .. not so sure. Not getting this at all ... too avant for me. 3 minutes ago, Dan Gould said: You know I love Charles Williams but as good as he is on blues he isn't where I'm at on the concept. Crawford ... obviously great on blues but again ... maybe too sweet in tone? My first instinct when I saw your post was Jeez how could I forget Hank Crawford but as I think of it .. not so sure. Not getting this at all ... too avant for me. Ernie Henry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 5, 2023 Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 Pete Brown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlhoots Posted June 5, 2023 Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 43 minutes ago, Dan Gould said: Not getting this at all ... too avant for me. That's why I listed him. Depends how you define "tough". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted June 5, 2023 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 1 minute ago, jlhoots said: That's why I listed him. Depends how you define "tough". Does this mean you would extend the (pretty standard) definition of tough tenors to any free/avant player? Does it not lose its meaning at some point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted June 5, 2023 Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 23 minutes ago, Dan Gould said: Does this mean you would extend the (pretty standard) definition of tough tenors to any free/avant player? Does it not lose its meaning at some point? How about Jackie McLean? I think he’s essentially a tough but arguably slightly more an inside player, than avant. Or Eric Dolphy? — at least in the studio (live might get to be a little more avant than you’re looking for, Dan). Or are they too ‘out’ for your definition of things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlhoots Posted June 5, 2023 Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 33 minutes ago, Dan Gould said: Does this mean you would extend the (pretty standard) definition of tough tenors to any free/avant player? Does it not lose its meaning at some point? Depends on what the definition of is, is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted June 5, 2023 Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 Donald Harrison on this album, and with the Head Hunters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kh1958 Posted June 5, 2023 Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 Sonny Criss seems tough as nails to me. And among the living, Bobby Watson. Re Donald Harrison, according to his facebook he just had a heart attack. Heart Attack Update: I had the procedure and it seems to be a success. One of the main arteries in my heart was blocked so this could have a death blow. Dr. Lasseter and his great team were synchronized to a high level and got me through this ordeal. They are observing me now. I have to carry my I had a heart attack card everywhere now. I am having a heart attack. Pray for me. I was in critical condition but now I am stable. The doctor will work on me tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted June 5, 2023 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 11 minutes ago, kh1958 said: Sonny Criss seems tough as nails to me. And among the living, Bobby Watson. Re Donald Harrison, according to his facebook he just had a heart attack. Heart Attack Update: I had the procedure and it seems to be a success. One of the main arteries in my heart was blocked so this could have a death blow. Dr. Lasseter and his great team were synchronized to a high level and got me through this ordeal. They are observing me now. I have to carry my I had a heart attack card everywhere now. I am having a heart attack. Pray for me. I was in critical condition but now I am stable. The doctor will work on me tomorrow. Woh. All good wishes to Donald Harrison. As for Criss I haven't thought of overtly bop-based altos as tough, but in his case I would probably agree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 5, 2023 Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 Sonny Cox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub Modal Posted June 5, 2023 Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 1 hour ago, kh1958 said: Sonny Criss seems tough as nails to me. And among the living, Bobby Watson. Re Donald Harrison, according to his facebook he just had a heart attack. Heart Attack Update: I had the procedure and it seems to be a success. One of the main arteries in my heart was blocked so this could have a death blow. Dr. Lasseter and his great team were synchronized to a high level and got me through this ordeal. They are observing me now. I have to carry my I had a heart attack card everywhere now. I am having a heart attack. Pray for me. I was in critical condition but now I am stable. The doctor will work on me tomorrow. Yeah, I read that. Wild stuff. He personally posted that he was having a heart attack. Glad he's in good hands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Friedman Posted June 5, 2023 Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 I was confused right at the beginning. I would not consider either Benny Carter or Johnny Hodges to be "Tough Altos" To my way of thinking a Tough Alto player would be a hard driving , hard tone player such as we get with Tough Tenors such as Lockjaw, Johnny Griffin, Arnett Cobb, etc. Jackie McLean would be a great choice to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted June 5, 2023 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 48 minutes ago, Peter Friedman said: I was confused right at the beginning. I would not consider either Benny Carter or Johnny Hodges to be "Tough Altos" Jackie McLean would be a great choice to me. I may have written too quickly, Peter. I was saying that Carter and Hodges and those they influenced were far afield from "tough" altos. Personally I think of direct links to Bird also being disqualifying for the sort of "toughness" that I am referencing so I wouldn't necessarily go with Jackie Mac but since I acquiesced to Sonny Criss, hey, why not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub Modal Posted June 5, 2023 Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 (edited) Hemphill and Joe McPhee And if not them then how about Sonny Fortune? Edited June 5, 2023 by Dub Modal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relyles Posted June 5, 2023 Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 Gary Bartz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillF Posted June 5, 2023 Report Share Posted June 5, 2023 This list is getting so long that someone will be naming Paul Desmond next! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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